Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in Soho. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you're here. Later on the show, we'll talk about the Gilded Age photographer, Staten Island's own Alice Austin, and we'll also talk with the filmmakers behind the new documentary Dear Ms.: A Revolution in Print, which explores the legacy of Ms. Magazine. That's our plan, so let's get this started with The Doobie Brothers.

[MUSIC - The Doobie Brothers: What a Fool Believes]

Alison Stewart: What a Fool Believes is a timeless classic and one of the best examples of what makes The Doobie Brothers a timeless band. It's just one of the many hits The Doobies have written over the years, and as a result, the members of the band are being inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame on June 12th. That's not all. Michael McDonald has rejoined the band for the latest album called Walk This Road, which came out last week. Let's listen to the title track.

[MUSIC - The Doobie Brothers (feat. Mavis Staples): Walk This Road]

The Doobie Brothers: Walk this road with me

And we'll see just where it goes

Long as we're together

It'll always take us home

What will be, will be

The path will lead us on

Oh, we don't have much

But love is all we need

Walk this road with me

Walk this road with me

Alison Stewart: The Doobie Brothers just rocked Irving Plaza on Friday night and will be back on tour in our area in early August, but for now, they're here for a listening party. Welcome, Michael McDonald. Hi, Michael.

Michael McDonald: Hi. How are you?

Alison Stewart: I'm doing well. Tom Johnston. Hi, Tom.

Tom Johnston: Good morning. How you doing?

Alison Stewart: Also, John McFee.

John McFee: Hello. Glad to be here.

Alison Stewart: And Patrick Simmons. Nice to meet with you.

Patrick Simmons: Alison, thank you.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about that title track, Walk This Road. What was the inspiration for that song?

Michael McDonald: Well, John Shanks, was the title he had, and it was probably, I think, the second thing I wrote with him for the album. He expressed interest in writing something that would be kind of focused on the band's long relationship and the fact that we had been together so long and doing another album, which seemed like a great idea. As we started to write it, I think it became obvious to both of us that it had a potential to be a more universal kind of idea of the fact that, as humanity, we're all stuck on this little blue ball spinning through space and that we would do better to think of what we have in common rather than what we disagree on.

It just became about that. Then, of course, having Mavis join us on it was unbelievable, organic, the way it happened. I don't know that any of us really know who asked her. She just kind of [crosstalk]--

Tom Johnston: Somebody did.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Mavis Staples just showed up one day?

Michael McDonald: Yes, she just appeared, and what better ambassador for that message?

Alison Stewart: Yes. John, what did Mavis Staples bring to the song?

John McFee: Wow. Well, one of the greatest voices of all time, for starters. Like Michael was saying, too, though, with her history with The Staple Singers and everything, they really pioneered songs about togetherness and trying to work together for a better future. She brought a whole history of that.

Alison Stewart: Tom, what did you think Mavis Staples brought to the track?

Tom Johnston: I've been a fan of Mavis Staple for a long time. Became aware of her, of course, through her family, Staple Singers, who I loved, and was listening to them in late '60s, I guess, first time I really heard about them. Mavis has done a lot of work on her own as well. The album she did with Prince, to me, was standout, was killer. Really dug it. She's just a great presence. Like Mike said, I think she and the family were the embodiment of social consciousness, I guess you would say, something that we need right now in a big, big way.

Bringing her in, plus the sound of her voice, I mean, it's instantly recognizable. Bang, that's Mavis. It's the only one who sounds like that. It was a plus all the way around.

Alison Stewart: I want to pick up on what Michael said with you, Patrick. The idea that this song says, walk this road with me. Why is that an important message for people to hear during these sort of uncertain times?

Patrick Simmons: Well, kind of obvious, probably, to listeners out there what's happening in the world. We are so divided at this point in our history. It's more important than ever, I think, to let people know that we're all in this together, whether you like it or not. It's one world, and you better wake up because we have a long way to go, hopefully.

Alison Stewart: Knock wood.

Patrick Simmons: If we don't pull it together as a species, then we're putting ourselves in greater jeopardy than ever. It's important. I think a lot of people feel this way, obviously, but maybe it's not being said that much in music these days. It doesn't really matter exactly what position you're coming from, because in reality, we all have to walk this road together. I will add that this song is really our-- To me, the first time I ever heard the track, I thought this is the kind of song that really makes sense for a band like ours. It's really gospel, roots gospel kind of music.

Then, having Mavis sing on it, to me, one of her great strengths, the whole family, was their dedication to gospel music, and she really brought that voice to the track. I just want to add that in there anyway.

Alison Stewart: That's so interesting. You called it roots gospel, the kind of music that you make. Has it always been that way?

Patrick Simmons: To a certain degree. I think that's an influence that we have. Not that we're hardcore Baptists or anything, but I think we have all observed the spiritual music and gospel in maybe a more Southern kind of a representation. To me, that's a part of who we are. We're really a blues-based band, I think, and I think gospel music is maybe at the root of all of that. I think maybe it predates blues. It maybe is blues. Gospel music kind of was the voice of blues as we know it, I think.

Alison Stewart: When I say blues to you, what does that mean, Michael?

Michael McDonald: It means the one true form of American music, jazz, blues, gospel. I think it's probably one of the greatest gifts to-- if there is a culture in America, because we are a melting pot. La Marea Humana, the human tide is as natural as the birds migrating south for the winter, and probably something we should think more in terms of managing and accommodating rather than trying to forbid or blockade because it's what we are as human beings. It's what we do naturally. That's why we got up on two legs in the first place, is to move and to migrate.

I think we bring something greater than ourselves when we do that. I mean, if you were going to really boil it all down to who has a right to be here, as far as African American influence on our culture, it's probably one of the greatest influences on our culture. Things that we think of as American, our music, our arts, that's truly ours, comes from the African American culture. The Indigenous people were already here. The African people didn't choose to come here. The Spanish were here 100 years before us.

The only real invaders are all us Europeans who came over. If you're going to have a problem with that, you got to start there.

Patrick Simmons: I think early rock musicians recognized that there was something greater to be drawn from music by putting together the two basic American art musical forms. One being gospel, blues, the other being country, maybe more Anglican mountain music. People like Elvis Presley and Jerry Lee Lewis, they saw that. They were white guys who saw the value in blues and gospel and married that into that Anglican country form that they kind of grew up on, and really, in a way, invented a new music with Little Richard and Fats Domino and Chuck Berry, people like that. That's the music that we still celebrate.

Michael McDonald: I think cross pollinization, like Pat said, is what our essence is as musicians, and just as Americans, that's what we are.

Alison Stewart: I'm going to get your take on this. For people who are listening, who should they go out to? What blues musicians should they, after this interview's over, take a listen to? You've got good taste, I can tell.

Tom Johnston: I thought you said take a listen as in a song.

Alison Stewart: No, no. Who should they listen to?

Tom Johnston: You're asking me?

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Tom Johnston: Sorry, I didn't sleep last night. I listened to a lot of blues growing up, a lot, mostly electric, but I got into acoustic blues and stuff when I was in college. The three Kings, first of all, Freddie, Albert, and B.B. Listen to them a lot. Listen to James Cotton a lot. I'm not going to come up with everything I want right now, but-

Alison Stewart: That's okay.

Tom Johnston: - a lot of really great musicians, and got to meet some of them, which was truly earth-shaking for me because I listened to them so much, and meeting them later on when we actually started doing something musically and you're kind of on the same platform, so to speak. It was outrageous.

Alison Stewart: I bet.

Tom Johnston: They're great guys, man, good people, and their music. It's hard to go up to somebody and say, "Man, your music really changed my life," but it did. I learned a lot from that kind of music, and R&B as well. Listened to a lot of R&B, and Little Richard was a huge influence. All that stuff kind of melds together. I listened to some Elvis too early on. I think that's an important thing to bring up because there's so many influences in modern music today, and there was back then, but this band brings all that together, along with what Pat mentioned.

I call it Americana now because that's an easy cover to cover a lot of different styles, and you add that to gospel, blues, rock and roll, and stick it all together, and acoustic stuff as well, and you kind of get The Doobie Brothers, with harmonies.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] My guests are The Doobie Brothers, Michael McDonald, Tom Johnston, John McFee, and Patrick Simmons. They're here for a listening party for their new album, Walk This Road. Let's play another track from the song. We're going to play Here To Stay. The vocals come in without instrumentation. What went into that decision? Who wants to take that?

Tom Johnston: I think John went into that decision. John Shanks, our producer. He kind of did that in the studio when nobody was there. He snuck it in there. He called me about it, he said, "What do you think about this?" Like, "Yes, go for it, man." We tried it, and it's pretty cool.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a listen to Here To Stay.

[MUSIC - The Doobie Brothers: Here To Stay]

The Doobie Brothers: Yeah, I'm ridin' wild horses

Grab the reins and fly away

Lost in rock-and-roll heaven

And ya know that it's here to stay

Welcome to the spotlight

And a thousand shades of red

Here to play my music

There's so much to be said

Oh, baby

I'm lost inside a daydream

I'm living in the sound

Still right here believing

So don't bring me down

And you should know

Here's the reason why

Yeah, I'm ridin' wild horses

Grab the reins and fly away

Alison Stewart: I call that you're in the car and you roll the windows down when you hear that song.

Tom Johnston: That's a plus.

Alison Stewart: That is a plus. When you go back into the studio, how do you keep things creative? It would be really easy for you to go in, record an album. You've done this a million times. John, how do you keep things creative?

John McFee: Well, I think for this band, it's always been about trying to find new ways to express things. Like was being discussed earlier, this group draws on a lot of different styles and elements, and so it makes getting creative interesting because you can go, what if you did this? Pat asked me to fiddle on a song or whatever it might be, it changes the direction a little bit, and there's just a lot of different ways you can approach any song. It starts with the material, and you've got to have something to say and try to find a unique way to say it.

Alison Stewart: How do you stay creative, Pat?

Patrick Simmons: Oh, geez, I don't know. Smoke a lot of pot. No, I'm kidding. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Sort of.

Patrick Simmons: No it's just-- How do you stay creative? Good question. I think it's you have to dedicate yourself to the process of doing that. It's not something that you're going to sit around and go, "Okay, I have this flash of inspiration. It's like you got to go in there like you want it, like you want something, you want to create. I don't want to say it's like a job, because it's not a job, but it's a dedication to a process. You have to go, "Okay, now I want to write a song. How am I going to do that?" Well, you have to work at it.

For me, it's always been, and I think it's probably the same for all of us, you find that place that you're comfortable, you sit down with your instrument, and you begin to explore and experiment until you maybe find a melody or a riff or something that you like. Sometimes you're watching television, or you're reading a newspaper or something, and you see a phrase, and that's inspiring, and then that points you in another direction, or you hear a song from somebody else's tune, and you go, "Oh, I'd love to write a song like that." You have to leave yourself open to it and work at it a little bit. Right?

Alison Stewart: Is that the same for you, Michael, that you have to be open to the world to stay creative?

Michael McDonald: You do. It's like you come in with the tools in your toolbox that you have developed over the years, but hopefully, that you hope will lead you to something you haven't done before, like Pat said. You have to be open for that. It's funny that whole songwriting journey, probably not that long ago, I can remember having the thought in my car somewhere, like, "I wonder if I'll ever write another song. I don't even know if I can do that anymore." Then,-

Alison Stewart: Really?

Michael McDonald: -the next thing you know, we're in the middle of the studio writing songs, and then you get that thing going that you haven't experienced in a while, and you start to just get started, and the record's over, and you're going, "Wow, why don't we keep going because I might actually come up with something even--" You have to know when to quit. I think what it did do for all of us is open the possibility or present the potential possibility to maybe do another record and see where we could go with that, which is not something I saw coming, or any of us did, I don't think.

We started out doing an EP, and it turned into an album. I think we all share the idea that it would be fun to try to do another one and try some different approaches to that.

Alison Stewart: Did you get writer's block, or were you joking there?

Michael McDonald: No, I always get writer's block.

Alison Stewart: Really?

Michael McDonald: Well, there are those moments where you get something going in your head and you can't put ideas down fast enough, but then there are those long, dry periods where you wonder if you'll ever do it again. I've had plenty of those.

Patrick Simmons: Thank goodness for cell phones.

Michael McDonald: Yes. No kidding.

Alison Stewart: It's true. That's the good side of technology.

Patrick Simmons: Really. It really helps.

Michael McDonald: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about the song, Learn to Let Go. Did you have writer's block with this one, or did this come naturally?

Michael McDonald: When I moved to Nashville, people would say, "Hey, come on down to Music Row. We'll write a song." For me, I always wanted to have something already started so I could play-- hopefully, because the idea of sitting in a room cold with someone and not coming up with anything scared me to death. Those are some of my most fond memories, of just making myself do it, braving the situation. That was one of those-- With John, he had a little bit of an idea for something that we kind of went past and came up with Learn to Let Go with no idea what we were going to write.

It kind of developed on the moment. The beauty about writing in that situation at John's studio was you would write the song and you'd be building the track within an hour that you were going to actually play for the rest of the band and everybody would join in on. It was one of those songs that came from a starting cold, and it presented itself, which is always the best kind of song. We always say to each other, the songs that write themselves are the best ones, and that was one of those, I think.

Alison Stewart: Let's hear Learn to Let Go from the album Walk This Road.

[MUSIC - The Doobie Brothers: Learn to Let Go]

The Doobie Brothers: When you look back on a love

And how it came to an end

You think you'll never wanna need anything

That much again, babe

'Cause when it feels so good it's hard to see

The writing on the wall

Flying high on love

Only makes for a longer fall

But ya gotta keep on trying

Till the memory sets you free

When you lose at love

This world may keep on turning

But it's just gonna keep on hurting

Till you learn to let go babe

It's where you'll find it

What you're looking for (Let go, babe)

You can't hide it

Use your head till your heart can follow

It's where you'll find it

What you're looking for

You can't hide it (Let go)

So just let it go

Alison Stewart: That's The Doobie Brothers from their album Walk This Road. Okay, Tom, this one's for you. We've heard about John Shanks a lot. [chuckles] How would you describe John Shanks' production style?

Tom Johnston: John is like a studio cat, man. He's studio quality guitar player, and it doesn't matter what style, pretty much. He's really, really good. Writing with John, you mean, or just in the studio?

Alison Stewart: In the studio.

Tom Johnston: It's fast. Things get done in a hurry, and I don't mean that in a bad way. It's very efficient. I always describe it this way to everybody. When you come in that house, basically, it's all about being in a studio as well as a place to write. You take a right and you go into the writing room, and you sit down. There's a computer there, and there's some ideas you get with guitars, or he's got a keyboard that he plays, whatever. You get the idea fleshed out there, and you send that down to the studio, which is downstairs.

You go down there and it's all Pro Tools. It's all laid out, what you did up there, because it's all done with timing and all that. Then, you start really going to the bones of the song, what it's about, what it's going to-- You've already got the chord changes, but you're starting to go for some instrumentation. You do the lead vocal early to give the song direction, I guess, and it's a pretty interesting way to work. Then, you bring in the drummer because so far, you're using a machine, right?

Then, you bring in a real drummer, and that adds something to any track, pretty much. Bass comes in a little later. As the song presents itself lyrically and you put backgrounds on it and different ideas, then the song builds, and you get the finished product, which may get changed midstream, and did on a couple of songs. You just completely turn it around and go to a different direction. Even though you're still keeping the basic idea, but the chord changes even changed a little bit.

Alison Stewart: You're good with that. Is that something [crosstalk]--

Tom Johnston: That was fine. There's two songs like that I can think of that I was involved with, and it was all for the better. More of an experimentation thing, and tried different techniques of guitar playing. This is another thing John's really good for, "What if we did this? What if we did that?" You always hear that when you're in the recording process, but just coming up with a guitar line and a different attitude and bringing the drums back, redo the drums, and it really changed the whole feel of the song.

There's one song in particular I'm thinking about, but there's actually two that that occurred on. Call Me was like that, and New Orleans was really like that. We completely refaced that whole thing.

Alison Stewart: It's been interesting. Hearing you talk, I've heard you say openness, experimentation. It sounds like that's become really important to you, Patrick.

Patrick Simmons: Relentless slave driver, I think is a better term. [chuckles] No, recording is fun. It's supposed to be fun. Whatever we do with it, I think that's what we're looking for as much as anything. For want of a better word, it's a stimulating process. It's one of those things that when you're working on stuff, if you get something, find something that you're happy with, it just brightens up your whole outlook. That's kind of the whole thing.It's a high, really, of its own making.

It's something we always dreamed of, I think. When we started out, there was no home studio or home recording if you were going to record [crosstalk]--

Tom Johnston: There was a basement, though. [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: A basement? [chuckles]

Patrick Simmons: If you wanted to record something, it was a reel-to-reel tape recorder. My father was a school principal, and he used to borrow tape recorder and bring it home, and I'd tape on it. The first time I ever heard my voice, I go, "That's not me. What is that?" "No, that's how your voice sounds." I go, "No, that can't be. That's not my voice." That's how we started. We didn't really have that advantage.

Then, when you get into a recording studio, it's like, this is a dream come true. You have multiple tracks. All that you've ever imagined about a band expands into this symphonic view of creativity, and you start to understand, "Oh, that's how The Beatles made these records sound so great. That's how George Martin did it." We never knew that. We just imagine, oh yes, they have this room full of an orchestra and all these guys playing instruments, and it all--

That's not how modern records are made. You start with a basic track, and then you build on it. George Martin in a certain sense, and a few others, obviously, he wasn't the only one, but they invented modern recording. Les Paul stacking tracks on one another. It was a dream come true. Now with Pro Tools and digital recording, it's like you can literally hundreds of tracks, and bands do that. They just keep-- Probably band's us. [laughs] You keep laying tracks on to make things sound good, and then you can take things away as well as put things on. You have this freedom that's just-- It's unimaginable.

I know anyone listening out there that has a home recording setup understands what I'm talking about. It's a dream come true for musicians these days to be able to create in such a way that gives you this freedom, and it's so much fun.

Alison Stewart: All right, I'm going to ask a journalist 101 question. You were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2020. On June 12th, you're going to be inducted to the Songwriters Hall of Fame. Michael, what happened? When did you hear the news?

Michael McDonald: Not that long ago. It was a couple months ago maybe. I speak for everybody, we were very excited of the prospect of being considered among some of the people that have won that award, going all the way back to some of the great writers, some of them who started these guilds that afforded us a living wage during our time. These are the guys that kind of built the whole business around songwriting. To be thought of in the category with those guys, not just for their wonderful, beautiful songs, but their awareness of what it could mean to all of us later is quite an honor.

Even with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, to be counted among the people that we grew up admiring and imagining what it was like to be in the studio when those records were made, and that magic moment of when Little Richard actually made those records, and just how exciting that must be to have been in those audiences early on in the '50s. It's almost like something we never really saw coming in our lifetime. It's a terrific honor, privilege.

Alison Stewart: We're going to go out on one more song from your album Walk This Road. We're going to go out on State of Grace. Anybody want to tell us anything we should listen for in this song you think is important in this song?

Patrick Simmons: It's probably a theme, maybe, that runs through a lot of the songs on this record, redemption. I mean, I always use that word, but it's the idea that no matter how far you fall, [chuckles] you can still pick yourself up and move forward, and whatever mistakes you've made, you can rectify those mistakes and come back from them and be a better person. I think that's really the idea.

Through that, find an inner peace that is important, especially with folks in our age bracket, [chuckles] you want to feel like no matter where we are in our lives right now, that we're still able to move forward in a positive direction and contribute somehow. That's kind of what the song's about.

Alison Stewart: My guests have been The Doobie Brothers, Michael McDonald, Tom Johnston, John McFee, and Patrick Simmons. Their album is called Walk This Road. This is State of Grace. Thank you so much for being with us, by the way.

Tom Johnston: Thank you for having us.

Michael McDonald: You're welcome. Thanks so much.

[MUSIC - The Doobie Brothers: State of Grace]

The Doobie Brothers: I've been down this old road so many times

Don't know how I could've missed so many signs

Of who I thought I was

And who I'm supposed to be

I've wasted all of my life

Living on the memories

They say every question has an answer

And every dream can lead you home