Alison: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Our October Get Lit with All Of It book club event is just over one week away. We are reading the latest novel by SA Cosby. The New York Times called him "a maestro of crime fiction," and after devouring the King of Ashes, I have to agree. The story follows a man named Roman. He's left his small hometown of Jefferson Run, Virginia, to become a successful financial advisor to celebrities in Atlanta. Roman finds himself back at home after he learns that a tragic accident involving his father might not have been an accident at all. In fact, it might have been an act of retribution from a local gang, and Roman's siblings have found themselves in the crosshairs.

Can Roman save his family from the gang, and actually, what will be the cost? SA Cosby will be joining us for an in-person and virtual event on Tuesday, October 28th, along with very special musical guest Yaya Bey, who will play a special acoustic set for us. It's going to be live at the NYPL, the Stavros Niarchos Foundation Library. By the way, it is almost sold out. To find out how to get your free tickets and to borrow your e-copy of King of Ashes, thanks to our partners at NYPL, you can head to wnyc.org/getlit. That is wnyc.org/getlit. Again, that's Tuesday, October 28th, at 6:00 PM at the Stavros Niarchos Foundation Library. We can't wait to see you there. Now, let's get this hour started with Heavyweight.

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Alison: When Heavyweight launched in 2016, it quickly became one of the standout narrative podcasts of the early podcast boom. Known for its mix of humor, heart, and honesty, host and creator Jonathan Goldstein helped people revisit pivotal moments from their past, seeking answers, forgiveness, and long-delayed closure. Then in 2023, Spotify canceled it, leaving fans to wonder if their beloved series had reached its end. This year, Heavyweight found a new home at Pushkin Industries and is now back for its ninth season.

Reigniting the same flame for narrative storytelling, the new season includes stories of a man trying to persuade his parents to downsize, a young actor discovering his big break was built on a lie, and a woman searching for her toddler she babysat in 1959. The first five episodes of Heavyweight Season 9 are available now, with new podcasts available on Thursdays wherever you get your podcasts. Host and creator Jonathan Goldstein joins us now to talk about Heavyweight's return, how the show has evolved, and what it's meant to tell someone else's story. Hi, Jonathan.

Jonathan: Hi. How are you?

Alison: So glad to have you.

Jonathan: Thank you. Thank you. Good to be here.

Alison: Listeners, we'd love to hear from you. Are you a fan of the podcast Heavyweight? Which episodes stayed with you and why? What did you take away from the conversations that Jonathan has with his guests about regret or forgiveness or closure? Our phone number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. If you have a question for Jonathan, you can shout that out as well. Our number 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can call us on that number, or you can reach out via text. You described Heavyweight as more documentary than podcast. What does that distinction mean to you?

Jonathan: I guess nowadays, it means that everything falls under the heading of podcast, and that encompasses four-hour chit-chat shows, not to put them down, I like a lot of those shows, interview shows. This comes more out of the tradition of, I guess, long-form audio documentary, which doesn't sound all that exciting.

[laughs

Jonathan: It's like the kind of radio that I was educated in as a producer at This American Life, that kind of thing, where sometimes some of these episodes end up taking years to make. I don't know. I wish there was a different kind of word for it to, I guess, distinguish them.

Alison: When Spotify canceled your show, did you think it was the end of Heavyweight?

Jonathan: I certainly thought it was possible. I don't know. I felt like I would probably keep doing it on my own, because I love doing it. In some ways, like I've said, I feel-- Even when the show started off, it wasn't-- Like the very first episode was me trying to solve the relationship between my father, Buzz, who at the time was 80, with his 85-year-old brother, Sheldon. These men were octogenarians. It felt like it's going to be attracting this much-coveted over-70 demographic. I don't know.

It didn't seem like it was going to be a big hit. Since that time, I feel a little bit like I've been doing some kind of outsider art project in many ways. I think I would have continued to do it, but I don't know, like maybe just putting out an episode a year or something. I didn't know. I didn't know if we would find a new home.

Alison: What did its revival mean to you personally?

Jonathan: It meant that I keep getting to do what I love to do with the people that I love, making the show. There are some episodes that are coming out in this ninth season that we've been kicking around in some cases for like three, four, possibly even like five years.

Alison: Wow.

Jonathan: It means being able to resolve some of those.

Alison: How do you decide what makes a good story for Heavyweight?

Jonathan: I think it has to have emotional stakes. I think it has to be relatable enough that people listening to it will feel like, "Oh, I've been there." There are sometimes stories that have stuck with people, some act of bullying that took place when they were 11 years old, that is still very present. I think for people to hear it and to be able to relate to it and for it to open up something in them is usually a good sign.

Alison: That's what happened in the second episode of Season 9, right?

Jonathan: The second episode of Season 9--

Alison: The boy who's a bank robber.

Jonathan: Yes. In that case, it's about this boy who, just shortly after his 14th birthday, walked into a bank with a sawed-off shotgun and stole $40,000. Now he's a man in his mid-40s, and people very close to him don't even know that this happened. He was looking for some kind of resolution. He wanted to make amends for it. He wanted to revisit that day and look for forgiveness from the people whose lives he had interrupted in this violent way. I guess the best episodes require someone who is really willing to go there.

The thing that we learn over and over in every episode is just how close to the surface the past is. It's almost like the past is just a word. People are just living with things in the here and now that are just as close as anything that's happening on a daily basis. This guy never put it to rest. He thinks about it every day.

Alison: We got a text that says, "So many of the episodes are really deep and personal and deal with some rough material. Jon is both so caring and yet so funny. How does he find the balance?"

Jonathan: I don't know. It's constantly a struggle. Sometimes you just don't want to take things too seriously, but at the same time, you don't want to feel dismissive or glib. There was one episode about this 20-something-year-old guy who was kicked out of his apartment that he shared in an artist's loft in downtown LA. Coming at it from the position of being a 50-something-year-old, I felt a little bit like he's going to be okay. Oftentimes, I guess you just want to strike the right tone. You don't want to be overly maudlin or just too self-serious. I don't know. I guess it's like when you're telling a story to a friend. You know what I mean? You're kind of poking fun at yourself in the situation. I guess it's a constant trying to find the right balance.

Alison: We're talking about the widely acclaimed narrative podcast Heavyweight. It returns for a new season. It has a new home. Host and creator Jonathan Goldstein joins us now to discuss the podcast. Listeners, we'd like to hear from you. Are you a fan of Heavyweight? What episode stayed with you and why? Our number is 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can call in, you can join us on air, or you can text that number. Maybe you have a question for Jonathan about how he tells or finds stories. Our number is 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. What is one of the first things you tell someone as you're about to approach interviewing them about something that's really personal?

Jonathan: We do end up interviewing a lot of people, and a lot of times the stories don't end up becoming full stories. They just end after the interview. We want people to feel vulnerable and raw enough that when you're hearing the story, they are back there, they are in that space of the bully 10-year-old. At the same time, sometimes we recommend maybe you want to take this offline, maybe they want to consult with a therapist first.

We always tell them that they could back up and take a break, and maybe try to just feel like-- As you'll probably tell, by the way, that I'm talking, I make great use of editing equipment, and we offer the same service to them. We let them stop and go back to what they were originally telling, I don't know, that kind of thing. They don't have to get it all out perfectly all at once.

Alison: We got a text that said, "My episode is The Marshes. I'm adopted, and heard it when I applied for my original birth certificate and was about to embark on looking for my biological family. It gave me hope that I might have a positive experiences like The Marshes. In the end, I did. Thank you, Jonathan." Would you share that?

Jonathan: Wow, that is wonderful to hear. I'll just give you a little thumbnail portrait of what that episode was about. It was this family that realized that they had a full sibling, an eldest sibling that their mother and their father had had before they were all born, that they were only finding out about as adults. It only came out at a family get-together where an aunt who was drunk started speaking out of turn. After many, many years of deliberation and putting it off, they ended up seeking out this daughter. It was a good reunion.

Alison: Another text says, "Question: What is the real story about his relationship with Jackie and the cold open?" So happy [crosstalk]

Jonathan: Each episode ends up, is me calling up my friend Jackie and her hanging up on me at a certain point.

Alison: [laughs]

Jonathan: I don't know. There's not a tremendous backstory. Some people think it's my sister or my wife. We're just old friends. We've been friends since children, and I think I legitimately annoy her, but I also think I amuse her. I don't know. She seems to both enjoy my phone call at the beginning of the show and find it annoying. It's kind of a paradox, I guess. I don't know. Maybe that says something about a lot of people's friendships. We kind of annoy each other, but we also sort of enjoy the annoyance. I don't know.

Alison: We're talking about the return of the narrative podcast Heavyweight. Host and creator Jonathan Goldstein is here now to discuss Season 9. I did want to point this out only because I sort of stumbled in this in researching. You were on a podcast about being sober.

Jonathan: Yes.

Alison: You chose to not drink.

Jonathan: Yes. It was like a pre-season episode. It kind of broke format. My producers and I were doing these sort of shorter personal essay-type episodes, which originally started out as just an attempt to-- During the show's cancellation, when we were looking for a new home, we were making these little essays for each other to entertain each other. I explored my relationship to alcohol, and I ended up talking to my dad, who is now 90 and loves drinking and drinks every day. It was a part of our bonding, for sure, drinking together. I talked to other people that I enjoy drinking with. Just trying to tally the pluses and the minuses, the things that I've lost out on after being a daily drinker for the past 20-odd years.

Alison: How is it working out for you?

Jonathan: I think it's doing okay. Thank you for asking. I'm coming up on two years without drinking. I hesitate to use the word sober. I hesitate to say I don't drink. I always just say it's been two years without drinking, and it's been okay.

Alison: It's more words, but it's okay. You can use more words. [laughs] Let's talk to Alina, who's calling in from Mamaroneck. Hi, Alina. Thank you for making the time to call All Of It. You're on the air with Jonathan.

Alina: Hi. I was rushing out, but when I heard this, I had to call because I really like the podcast. I lost it when it went off the air and didn't know what had happened, and was glad to find it again. You asked for one. There's a lot of episodes I like. I particularly like the one, Jonathan, you did with your friend Gregor-

Jonathan: Oh, thank you.

Alina: -and finding, I think, a musician. I can't remember all the details. What that showed me, and a lot of what the episodes show, is most people have something that's just unresolved in their lives. For some, it can really hang over them and change the way they think about themselves, their careers, and the way they deal with people. That seemed to be what Grego-- It's not like necessarily people change their whole lives, but it gives them insight they didn't have otherwise into why they went in a certain direction or just what happened.

I think you had one about why someone wasn't invited to the prom or something like that, or didn't invite someone, I can't recall, or Valentine's Day or something along those lines. It can be minor things or it can be major things, but the minor things can be major. We all make them much bigger in our minds, certain specific things. Anyhow, I think you do a really good job, and I like how self-deprecating you are. I think it's funny. I know your friend, Gregor, at the end of that one, said you do these hallmark moments at the end. I don't think they're hallmark. I think they're pretty poignant and insightful.

Jonathan: Oh, thank you. Gregor will rib me over the course of the episode. The idea behind the show really was to create a forum for these moments that just don't die. You know what I mean? Imaginary conversations you have with yourself, things that you wish you had said, things that you think about during those nights when you can't sleep. In the case with Gregor, I'll just say that he had lent a whole bunch of CDs to the techno musician, Moby, who ended up using those CDs, sampling those CDs to create his multi-platinum selling CD play.

Gregor just wanted to get those-- He wasn't looking for money, he wasn't looking for fame or accolades. He just actually wanted to get the CDs back. After 20-odd years of Moby not responding to his messages, we went to Los Angeles and knocked on Moby's door so that Gregor could get back his CDs. In the course of that episode, as most episodes become, it's like the thing that a person is looking for, in some ways, is a MacGuffin. What he really, I think, was looking for was to reignite his friendship with Moby. They were both able to sit down and rekindle their friendship, and that was really cool.

Alison: I'm curious if people stories, or at least how they approach their stories, changed at all since the pandemic.

Jonathan: I know that it's changed our modus operandi. We used to do a lot more reporting trips, where I would go off and see people in person. When COVID struck, we started doing things over Zoom. In some ways, I was reluctant. I thought that that would take away, but in some ways, in ways that I didn't anticipate, it offered something too, because sometimes these were very heavy conversations, and at least the person, when we got off the Zoom, was able to feel like they were at home in their personal space, and they could walk into the other room and be among family and stuff like that. That wasn't so bad. How do you mean?

Alison: Were people more reflective after the pandemic? People were by themselves for a lot of time and had a lot of time to think. [chuckles]

Jonathan: Yes, I know. That's so true. You would think that that would create an avalanche of people writing in with ruminations. I don't know, actually. Probably, there must be some kind of way to use AI to chart all of the emails and see if there was an uptick in a certain email post-COVID. It's possible. I'm not sure, though.

Alison: That's an episode for you.

Jonathan: There you go, yes.

Alison: We're talking about Heavyweight. Season 9 is airing now. I've been talking with Jonathan Goldstein. It is very nice to speak with you.

Jonathan: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.