David Furst: This is All Of It. I'm David Furst, in for Alison Stewart. On today's show, we speak with comedian and artist Sam Kissajukian about his new show, 300 Paintings, which is running at the Vineyard Theater. We'll learn about some upcoming Lunar New Year events happening in Queens, and we'll be joined by a New York Times reporter for a primer on the TikTok band. That's the plan. Right now, it's time to take the elevator down to the severed floor of Lumon Industries.

After a three-year wait, the series Severance has finally returned for its second season. Things at Lumon Industries are as unsettling and inscrutable as ever. The thriller follows office workers whose minds have undergone a procedure that splits them into two identities, their real-life outie and their Innie, who exists only when they enter the office. Except by the end of the last season, those worlds began to blur. We got a little bit closer to the big mystery of whatever might be going on at their company, Lumon.

Here is a clip from the first episode of the second season. This is featuring Adam Scott as Mark S, a Lumon employee, and our next guest, Tramell Tillman, as his recently-promoted boss, Mr. Milchick. Milchick speaks first.

Mr. Milchick: I locked you in a room like an animal, Mark. As an unsevered man, I'll carry that knowledge the rest of my life. But for the past five months, we've been asking how a sadist like Harmony Cobel could take fertile root in Lumon soil, and what that says about us? We also know Ms. Cobel was at your sister's home when you awoke there.

Mark S: Yes. Why was that?

Mr. Milchick: We believe she developed an erotic fixation on you and had plans to pursue both you and your Outie in what might be termed a throuple.

Mark S: What?

David Furst: All right, so everything's all better now. Also, joining us is Britt Lower, who plays Helly R, another Lumon employee. Season 2, episode 2 streams today on Apple TV+. Trammell and Britt, welcome to All Of It.

Tramell Tillman: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Britt Lower: Thank you for having us.

David Furst: Tramell, season 1 of Severance came out in 2022. That is a long time to go between seasons, and a lot of fans have been rewatching that first season to refresh their memories to get ready this. You told The Hollywood Reporter that you did that yourself ahead of the press tour for this season. What surprised you going back and watching that now?

Tramell Tillman: So much life has happened since we were filming. I look at it, I was like, "God, I look like five years younger in season 1." We look like babies. I was so grateful. I am grateful to be back and glad that we, the team, is all back together and that we get to tell this story on a whole another level this year for season 2. I was excited about the twists and turns and the information that we're learning about Milchick, about Helly, about what the Innies are learning about themselves and what we're learning about the company as well. I'm eager to hear what the audience, how they will respond to it.

David Furst: Well, I watched a bunch of episodes in a row at one point, and I sort of felt like my brain had been permanently altered. Now, when I get to work here at WNYC and go up the elevator, I wonder if that's when the Work David part of my brain kicks in as we become the work version of ourselves, and that part of our day begins. Britt, did you do a rewatch?

Britt Lower: I did do a rewatch. To echo Tramell, I feel like it was like watching a home video from high school or something, like it happened such a long time ago.

David Furst: Well, the show is primarily directed by Ben Stiller, has an incredible cast, including both of you, along with Adam Scott, Zach Cherry, John Turturro, Patricia Arquette, Christopher Walken. Can you talk about working with this team?

Britt Lower: Yes, it's an incredible group of people. Ben Stiller is such a collaborative artist, and he brought so many artists who are just kind of at the top of their game and as obsessed with making the show as he is to each department. Showing up to set and getting to work with my heroes is a real surreal experience. A real surreal experience.

David Furst: Real surreal is, I think, appropriate.

Britt Lower: Maybe that's the title of the show, Severance Real Surreal.

David Furst: Well, Tramell, I mean, I want to hear your take on that, too. It's been fascinating to watch the evolution of the indie versions of some of these characters and the developing workplace relationships that somehow still happen even within the sealed off corporate worship universe of Lumon, including what seems to be a genuine love that grows between John Turturro and Christopher Walken. It's just so great to see both of them in these roles.

Tramell Tillman: It's a delight to watch them play with each other. They, in real life, have a pure, wonderful, respectful relationship with each other. You can tell that they've worked with each other, they're friends, they love one another. To see that manifest on screen is wonderful. They take care of one another. I witnessed that firsthand in season 1 when we were filming Burt's retirement party. The care that John had with Christopher and the play that Christopher had with John, it was a delight. I just wanted so badly to be a part of it, an outsider.

That feeling really fueled Milchick's performance and how he tends to these Innies, that he himself is a bit of a outsider from the camaraderie that they are finding naturally.

David Furst: It's a fascinating show, and I have so many millions of questions. Britt, do you somewhat dread talking about the show because it's a delicate dance in what you can and cannot say, because you really need to watch the show from the beginning and watch the whole story arc evolve? Can you maybe share some of the wildest theories that you've heard from fans of the show about what they think might be going on?

Britt Lower: Well, there are so many. I will say, I feel like the audience has become the other part of our show. It feels like we're having a real conversation from season 1 to season 2. Even now, the world of the show exist, and then I think it expands in the minds of our viewers, and the questions and their engagement with the show really has an impact.

David Furst: That's interesting. I mean, I have so many questions. Let me throw one out here. Maybe you both have a take on this, but these characters have sort of kidnapped themselves, right, or another version of themselves? Tramell, aside from whatever we think about the motives of the company they work for, how morally culpable are they for locking up this other version of themselves? In the workplace, they never get to see the sky, they only live to work, doing who knows what.

Tramell Tillman: Morally culpable. What's interesting is the more and more I step through this show, there's a lot of conversation around morality. There's conversation of whether or not who's good, who's bad, the villain, the heroes, and so forth. What I think is interesting is that it is a question mark across the board. The first question that is asked in the season, we start with, "Who are you?" I think so much of this piece is about identity. When it comes to morality as it pertains to Milchick, I think it's less about morality and more about service.

He's in service of this company. He is in service of Kier, and he enters this space with a blind faith, and what makes it interesting is that it feels very human. These are qualities that I have seen. We have witnessed through religious movements, political movements, that there is this 100% commitment to an entity, to an idea, to a belief, to a faith, and they follow it 100%. They follow it wholeheartedly. That, to me, is what's so interesting about how these characters are so present and engaging with the audience.

David Furst: When you say in service to Kier, this is the founder of the company they work for?

Tramell Tillman: Yes, founder of Lumon.

David Furst: Just to follow up on this with you too, Britt, in the very opening scene of the whole series, we see Helly unconscious on a table, locked in what seems to be a conference room, about to begin her severed work life. It feels to the audience and to her in that moment that she's being held prisoner against her will. We are told her Outie made this choice. This was her own choice to come here to work.

Britt Lower: Yes. Helly wakes up to a very hungry journey to find out what the hell is going on on the second floor, and primarily to find out that question that Tramell said, which is, who are you? It's a journey of identity. I think as season 2 jumps off of that glimpse that we get at the end of season 1 of all the characters finding out a little bit more of who they are on the outside, it's just exploded their world of like, "Well, what is my relationship to this other part of me? What is my relationship to myself? What is my relationship to my given and my chosen family?" Yes, I'm so excited for people to see.

David Furst: Exploded is a good word to use. I mean, it's an extreme version of what we all somewhat go through a little bit, right? Adam Scott in the first season, playing two versions of his character throughout the first season, Innie Mark and Outie Mark. Your Outie reveal only happens in the last episode. This season, we get to see a little bit more of who that person is. What was it like breaking up this character that you developed into the two characters?

Britt Lower: Well, jumping off the idea that this is the same person who shares a body and a subconscious, this is a person who's bringing the joy and trauma from either side of the Innie or the Outie. In that, it becomes a question of what's bleeding through. I kind of started from, well, how are they similar? These are two sides of the same person who are both trapped within the same company. Helly, the Outie, is trapped in a very different way because she was born into this family. I kind of differentiated-- they sound like different music in my head.

Almost like same musician but different albums or different sides of the album. It's the same person but she has a different set of circumstances. Much different set of circumstances on the inside than the outside.

David Furst: It's fascinating to me how those different sets of circumstances feel totally different in the two different worlds. I love how the way a character perceives something in the outside world can feel very different for the versions of themselves that are cut off from the world in this hermetically sealed environment of the severed basement floor of Lumon. Out there in the world, Mark views his brother-in-law as something of a buffoon. He's this hugely self-absorbed guy that Mark doesn't take seriously.

Tramell, when Mark stumbles across his brother-in-law's self-help book, The You You Are at work, this hits him in a completely different way. This is contraband. I mean, he might have mocked it in the real world, but here, this is like the guidebook to the revolution.

Tramell Tillman: Yes, it is, it is. There's that scene where Milchick is sitting and he's reading the book and you see his response to it. It's ridiculous. Here it is, these Innies, and this is my take, and please correct me, Brit, if I'm speaking out of turn, but they're hungry for information, they're hungry for knowledge. Here is this mysterious text that has nothing to do with Lumon, its color and its presentation. Now, the text is challenging everything that Lumon is standing for, so it is a threat.

Britt Lower: I mean, totally. I think the inner child that you see kind of emerge from the Innies when they wake up in their new consciousness, is at odds with the inner critic that you see on the outside. It's kind of that ego, nature-nurture. Of course, like a brand-new consciousness is going to be kind of more open to a new idea than someone like Mark's Outie is a bit more jaded and maybe he's come across more self-help books than is any-- Well, 100% more.

David Furst: 100% more, exactly. Right. We're speaking with Tramell Tillman and Britt Lower. We're talking about season 2 of Severance, which has final arrived. Season 2, episode 2 streams today on Apple TV+. We continue our conversation in just a moment here on WNYC. This is All Of It. This is All Of It on WNYC. Season 2 of Severance is out now. Episode 2 streams today on Apple TV+ and we are here with two of the actors from the series, Tramell Tillman and Britt Lower. It's great to have you with us. Brit, I wanted to ask you, when you're an actor, when you go into work and adopt a different persona, is there any analogy there for Severance, for Innies and Outies?

Britt Lower: Yes, 100%. There's a meta quality of what we do as actors. Obviously, we do put on a different costume and assume a different identity. There is a shared body. What we go through at work sometimes carries over. I find that sometimes when I'm in my regular life, I start walking a bit more like Helly when we're in production. In the same way that I play Helly, Helly plays me a little bit, too.

David Furst: Interesting. I have to ask about the Milchick character, Tramell. He is not severed, as far as we know, like his boss, Cobel. He appears to be the same person inside and outside the company, but this is a guy who is all in, right, as we talked about earlier? He is a true believer in the corporate mission. As Milchick, you are eerily unflappable most of the time. Friendly but cold. Very corporate. There's something about your smile that is assuring but also terrifying. I feel like I should be apologizing to you right now so I can maybe avoid a trip to the break room.

How did you work on the look of Milchick? The way he carries himself and delivers friendly, but not friendly directions?

Tramell Tillman: Sure. I go back to the initial breakdown that I received from Milchick, and it basically said, age 20 to 50, enthusiastic corporate man, enthusiastic company man.

David Furst: That's not a lot.

Tramell Tillman: Yes, that was it. I had to do a lot of research to really figure out who this guy was. I was digging into the script and just allowing my imagination to play. This is a man that has a lot of secrets. He has access to secrets. He doesn't know everything, but he knows enough, so there's a lot of power there. From the scene that I auditioned with, which was the red ball scene, I got the sense that he's a bit of a coach, he's a bit of a teacher. There's got to be a level of trust that he has to build.

From there, you kind of put together the pieces of the puzzle. You become a detective, if you will, to try to solve the mystery of who this guy is. I don't have him completely figured out at all because I'm learning so much as I step through, filming season 2. What I did understand was that this is a guy that has a suit of armor that he wears. He's very meticulous about his appearance, how he shows up to work, what he says. His diction is very assured. It's very measured. He carries himself in that way. He's a soldier. He's ready. He's armed for battle.

It was really a delight to be in a collaborative space with Dan and Ben to really craft how this guy moves and how he appears. I worked heavily with Jennifer Lord, who is my hairstylist on the show, and Kathleen Brown is our makeup artist, to craft how his mustache is and how his hair is teased in the right proper shape. It was a collaborative effort, but really finding the heart of who he is, the pulse of this man has been quite a journey in of itself.

David Furst: Do you find that some of those seemingly little details, like just how the hair is, really informs your performance and who this character is?

Tramell Tillman: 100%. It's all storytelling. Every bit of it. The suit. The suit color, the way his tie is tied, his shoes. Every bit of it is a piece of storytelling, and it really serves the idea of Lumon and who this guy is.

David Furst: You mentioned in an interview with The Hollywood Reporter, when you're talking about rewatching season 1, that you said, "At the time, when I was acting in season 1, I was like, 'Hey, this is all fun, but now, I see that it's terrifying. I don't even recognize that guy as me.'"

Tramell Tillman: That's true. That tracks.

[laughter]

Britt Lower: And it's great to work with Tramell, too, because to watch his process is mesmerizing. You watch him do this terrifying thing and then cut, and he's just the most warm and lovely and delightful person on the planet.

David Furst: Also, Britt, talking about rewatching the season now, because as we mentioned earlier, a lot of this was filmed a long time ago. The new season started filming back in 2022, but had to break for the Screen Actors Guild and the Writers Guild of America strikes. Was it difficult, Britt, to leave and return to these characters in the middle of a season?

Britt Lower: We all kind of got out on the picket lines together, so we stepped into that role for that time period, and there's something about, again, these costumes are so evocative. You put them on and I've got the Helly heels and it just comes right back.

David Furst: I read that in between seasons, Britt, you joined the circus. Do I have that right? Maybe two different circuses.

Britt Lower: I did, yes. After season 1 and after season 2, I joined two different circuses. The circus makes me incredibly happy.

David Furst: What does that mean? What were you doing with the circus?

Britt Lower: What was I doing? In the most recent circus, I was sitting on top of the tent as the audience arrived, playing my ukulele. When the show began, I was a ringmaster of sorts. I just felt incredibly lucky to get to share a stage with my other heroes in the circus world who are tightrope walking, swallowing swords, and trapeze.

David Furst: Absolutely fascinating. Are we to get you up on the tightrope at any point?

Britt Lower: I don't know if I do anything because it'll be impressive, but I'll talk to the audience. That's my brave act.

David Furst: Tramell, how did you use the extra time between seasons? Any circus work?

Tramell Tillman: No, I didn't do any circus work. I traveled a bit. I give myself the task to travel internationally at least once a year, and I like to travel solo. It's really fun to be able to explore culture, go see art and museums, and taste the food. I love cuisine. I was in Spain during the breaks and I had a wonderful time.

David Furst: I have so many questions. I try to get a few more in here because I'm just so curious. I have to mention that the season was filmed all over New Jersey. The South Bronx, Upstate New York, the exteriors of the Lumon building are at Bell Works in Holmdel, New Jersey. Do you spend a lot of time filming at these locations, Britt, or is most of it done in a film set where you have those long white hallways and those office spaces?

Britt Lower: Yes, we do spend a lot of time at a Bronx studio where those labyrinth-like hallways are actually built and do confuse us daily.

David Furst: I'm so glad because it's incredibly confusing. It looks like we're--

Britt Lower: To act wired. We're confused. "Where are we?" We did get to spend some more time on location for this season, and that was cool to get to the-- What is the line, Tramell? To breathe fresh air or something from Ricken's book. I'm not sure.

Tramell Tillman: Oh, yes.

Britt Lower: The taste of fresh air something. Anyway.

David Furst: It's such a disconcerting feeling that you have being lost in those endless white hallways. Tramell, the aesthetics of the show, it's set in some kind of alternate present or maybe near future with those endless and confusing hallways, but the technology in the office looks like it comes from the '80s or maybe the '60s or '70s, the graphics on their computers seem hilariously stuck in the 1980s, especially when you get some visual reward. When they get a music reward in the office, Milchick plays records on an old turntable. It all seems to add to this sense of dislocation and being lost in time.

Tramell Tillman: I think it's such a delight to have that quality in the show where you don't know the era that we're in. It feels timeless in that way. Speaking of the hallways, I have to give credit to Jeremy Hindle, our production designer, for crafting such a beautiful set. On the severed floor, even every piece. It's stunning. Cath Miller, who is our prop master, and with the instruments that you see in season 1. The computers, all of that, it's geniuses that are really crafting and telling this story to create that image, that feel that you're speaking to, that timeless feel.

Britt Lower: And we're so lucky. It feels like we've been dropped into an art installation.

David Furst: That's a great way to put it. That is what it feels like. Speaking of being dropped into an art installation, we're New York Public Radio, so we have to ask about the Grand Central stunt that you did recently. You and your cast members were stuck in this glass cube in Vanderbilt Hall in Grand Central, acting out office scenes. Tramell, how was this stunt pitched to you?

Tramell Tillman: Well, I got a letter. I don't even want to call it a letter. I think it was just a line, and it just said, "Installation Cube." I thought that I was just going to show up and stand by a severance cube along with the rest of my cast, and we just take pictures in Grand Central and then leave.

David Furst: Oh, no.

Tramell Tillman: It wasn't until a couple days prior to they said, "No, this is a full production. You will be in costume. We're going to have hair, makeup." They have taken the desks and put them in Grand Central, and we had so many questions as to how this works. It's like, "Is there a door to get into the cube? Is it glass? Is it cold in the cube?"

David Furst: "Will we be protected in there?"

Tramell Tillman: "Will we be protected?" Like, "How are people going to get in?" It exceeded my expectations. I don't think I had any expectations. It just exceeded my imagination as to how it was going to go. The turnout was just amazing.

David Furst: Britt, what was it like to play this character live in person, in front of a crowd?

Britt Lower: It was incredible. We typically get into character, into costume, and it takes two years before it's delivered to our audience. We were performing moment for moment in front of people, and it was so fun. It's so rare that you get into character with your cast for a press tour. I think we hadn't been on set for a year, right, Tramell?

Tramell Tillman: I think so.

Britt Lower: It's just nice to be together. We had all these storylines going in there that you'll never know about.

David Furst: Well, you're stuck in there. You got to do something, right? I mean, Tramell, you have theater experience. You were in the Great Society on Broadway. Until about a month ago, you were off-Broadway in a show that we can't say the name of. You're set to appear in Wine in the Wilderness at Classic Stage Company this spring. Was a live theater background helpful with this stunt?

Tramell Tillman: Oh, absolutely. There's nothing like the magic of live theater, and there's nothing like having an audience around you. It's different with television and film because your audience is a bit smaller. Here, we are gathered together, instructed not to break the fourth wall, and have spectators around us in the round, but I guess spectators in the cube, if you will, to really feed and give us energy. I remember there was a moment where I stepped Mark, or excuse me, I stepped Adam outside of the cube to basically give him a break.

One of the onlookers said, "Oh, you're going to take them to the break room?"

David Furst: That's the first thing I thought of when you said break.

Tramell Tillman: They were really enthusiastic. They loved it. They were all in. It was really wonderful to feel and experience that.

David Furst: I have so many more questions, but I'm going to have to stop myself. The way you finished by talking about being all in, I think that's the way a lot of us feel when we're watching Severance. It's an incredible series, and it's been great to you today. Season 2 of Severance has arrived. Episode 2 of season 2 streams today on Apple TV+. Tramell Tillman and Britt Lower, thank you for joining us.

Tramell Tillman: Thank you.