Kate Hinds: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kate Hinds in for Alison Stewart. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. Coming up on today's show, we'll speak with the director and editor of the new video essay Videoheaven, which is a film about film culture. Then sports journalist Benjamin Hill and minor league super fan, WNYC senior producer Rex Doane, are here to talk minor league baseball. Plus, some folks from the Infatuation join us to share their list of the best ice cream places in New York City. That's the plan. Let's get this started with a trip underground.

[music]

Kate Hinds: We're kicking off today's show with a topic that covers subway geysers, shifting bike lanes, hidden stairs, and even pig bones. Yes, I'm talking about New York City transit. Joining me now is WNYC and Gothamist transportation reporter Stephen Nessen. He's here to take your calls and talk about the latest in commuter news. Welcome, Stephen.

Stephen Nessen: Hello, Kate.

Kate Hinds: Listeners, we want to get you in on this conversation. You have a primo transit reporter sitting across from me, and you can ask him anything. You have questions about Gateway, the Bedford Avenue bike lane, subways, ferries, buses. If it's transit-related, Stephen can probably answer it. Give us a call. 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. You can also hit us up on social media @allofitwnyc. Stephen, I teased pig bones. I have to bring up pig bones right away. One of your latest stories is on the Gateway program. Remind us what this is and why we're talking about it right now.

Stephen Nessen: Wow. Let's get into it. The Gateway program, it's easy to hear the name and let it wash over you because we've been mentioning it for decades. This is basically a plan to replace the existing Hudson River Tunnel that was damaged during Superstorm Sandy way back-- was that 2012?

Kate Hinds: 2012.

Stephen Nessen: Infamous. That tunnel was damaged. It's still in use, but experts and everyone say it's crumbling. It needs to be replaced and repaired. Many, many years ago, there was a plan to build another tunnel, and it took the-- it's owned by Amtrak, by the way. It's taken them this long to get the plan in place, the funding, how exactly to coordinate it, all of this, and the money. It's now a $16 billion project, but everything's lined up, the cards have fallen into place, or whatever metaphor you want.

Kate Hinds: The rail cars are connected.

Stephen Nessen: Everything's in place. It's ready to go. Work is underway, finally. We're just at the one-year mark since they actually got all the funding to make this happen. Now we can really see stuff happening. I was out taking a look at what's been happening for the past year. You want to get right down to the pig bones of it. Obviously, they have to dig this new tunnel. You're digging in a part of the city that's built up. It's been built up over the years. It's like basically been built up and then destroyed and then built up again.

Kate Hinds: Where on the West Side is the digging happening?

Stephen Nessen: We're talking about pretty much at 30th Street on the West Side of Manhattan. If you've been there recently, there's a high line there now. There's Hudson Yards. All of this is relatively new, speaking as far as New York City goes. What's happening right now is they're digging under the ground and they're finding all kinds of fun stuff, because the West Side, as you and many of your listeners probably know, is actually landfill. It's not like New York bedrock, the classic bedrock they have to dig through.

They're finding ghosts of Manhattan's past over there when the Meatpacking District actually did meat, and not just art exhibits and high-end galleries. They're digging these things up, and they found a trove of pig bones, which was very interesting. They found a two-story staircase under the ground, which experts aren't quite sure where it led to.

Kate Hinds: Wait, can I back up about the pig bones?

Stephen Nessen: Yes.

Kate Hinds: Is that because there was a pig processing plant? Was there a farm? Where did the pig bones come from?

Stephen Nessen: Not exactly sure, but the Meatpacking District was there, and I think when you want to get rid of stuff, you just threw it out your window and dumped it on the side of the road. I surmise that's what happened. Nobody's like, "This was one company that was constantly dumping bones." I haven't heard about that.

Kate Hinds: What are they doing with the detritus that they discover?

Stephen Nessen: Good question. There's definitely experts who are looking at these geo scans that they do of the ground because they don't just want to send a digger in there willy-nilly, just like hacking up stuff because they might find something actually quite significant. They have these geo scans, and they're analyzing them. They did find the foundation of a soap factory, which is interesting. I think they're just being very meticulous and careful, and maybe that's another reason why this project is so slow. They're not just like, "Rip it up, guys." They're being pretty careful about this. They're not just sending the drill in to toss everything.

Kate Hinds: This is like, it's how the film Poltergeist got started. You dig up the graveyard and you don't dispose of the remains or treat them respectfully. We don't want a haunted Gateway Tunnel.

Stephen Nessen: This is true.

Kate Hinds: I'm going to get a little bit of transit nerdery on because, as you know, I used to be a transportation reporter, and I'm contractually obligated to point out that Governor Chris Christie canceled the first iteration of this Trans Hudson tunnel way back in 2010. What is this new tunnel going to do for New Jersey transit and Amtrak riders if and when it's ever completed?

Stephen Nessen: I mean, when it's completed. They're pretty confident this is going to get completed. Basically, it's going to double the capacity of trains that can go from New Jersey into Penn Station. Right now, it's, I believe, 24 trains an hour. They'll be able to run 48 trains an hour.

Kate Hinds: Does Penn Station have the track capacity for that?

Stephen Nessen: Currently, they do not, Kate. That's the next phase of Gateway. How are you going to allow more trains to run per hour and really allow more people to get there faster? That would involve-- Right now, there's talks-- there were talks anyways about knocking down an entire block of midtown to expand the number of tracks underground. Everyone's not in favor of that at the moment. Hochul said, no, most folks do not want to do that. It's disruptive. No.

They're trying to find other ways to do that. If you want to get real transit nerdery, we'll use the phrase through running, which everyone's looking at and studying now. Andy Byford, a name that transit nerdery knows and loves well, is in charge of the Penn Station redevelopment now. He works at Amtrak. President Trump put him in charge, and he's very much in favor of studying through running and seeing if that could be a way to get more people through Penn Station faster.

Kate Hinds: Explain how through-- like through running. Are we talking about Long Island Railroad trains going out to New Jersey?

Stephen Nessen: Exactly.

Kate Hinds: Mind blown.

Stephen Nessen: Mind blowing. Yes. Trains wouldn't have to stop at Penn Station, turn around as they do now. New Jersey Transit trains, when they arrive, they actually just lay up or go up to Sunnyside Yards until it's time to go back home again. They could just be going out to Long Island and saving everyone a lot of time and effort with parking trains for the day, which is not efficient.

Kate Hinds: Listeners, we want to get you in on this conversation. Join Stephen Nessen and I in our transit nerdery. Hit us up with any and all of your transportation questions. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Our next topic is going to be subway flooding. I especially want to hear from listeners who experienced the joys of the subway system last Monday night. Before we go there, Stephen, last question on Gateway. You have reported that West Side highway drivers should expect some disruptions from the digging of the Gateway project. What should they expect?

Stephen Nessen: We don't actually have a date. They said it could be as soon as next month. It could be in the fall. To do this digging, they're digging a tunnel underground under the West Side Highway. To make more room for these giant digging machines, they tell me they have to actually shift the lanes of the highway over, so the median is going to be gone, and they're just going to move the traffic over. I'm told no lanes of traffic will actually be removed, but this will be a work zone. You can imagine there will be some slowdowns, and it could last for a year. Eventually, I'm told the bike lane in Hudson River Park could be impacted, but that's like a year ahead. Eventually, they do need to do work on that side as well.

Kate Hinds: I have a text from a listener that I'll address to you that says, "Can the MTA raise the fare without any review and approval from the state government? I mean, introducing OMNY in the place of an unlimited Metro card is actually fare hike. I'm paying $132 right now for a 30-day card. With OMNY, it will be up to $170 for 30 days, which is a pretty substantial difference." Stephen.

Stephen Nessen: There's a lot there. There's a couple of things there. The MTA does have a policy and procedure they have to follow for a fare hike. There has to be public hearings. They have to give public notice. The MTA board has to approve it. The board is made up of members appointed by the state and the city. Theoretically, I guess the caller's asking, "Can anyone stop this?" I guess they could, but--

Kate Hinds: Yes, I think the number check is the MTA has said, in the selling of the OMNY, it's something like after your 13th swipe, it's free for a seven-day period. How does that math compare to the unlimited Metro card?

Stephen Nessen: We've posed that to them and still maintain that it's a better deal for the seven-day. For a rider like the one you spoke with, and I've heard from many people as well, it doesn't add up with the way that they use the system. Everyone uses it slightly differently and has different work days. It's true, if you're a heavy 30-day user, and the math does work out that you would pay slightly more with OMNY. The MTA really maintains that the seven-day is the best deal. As the caller didn't quite mention, but I should mention, the Metro card is going away at the end of this year.

Kate Hinds: At the end of this year.

Stephen Nessen: This year.

Kate Hinds: No more swiping.

Stephen Nessen: No more swipes. The OMNY will be the only option. The MTA hasn't said if they're going to include a 30-day unlimited option with OMNY. We haven't heard anything yet. Like they were talking about the fare hike, that is coming later this year as well.

Kate Hinds: There's going to be a fare hike later this year?

Stephen Nessen: The biannual-- excuse me, 4% fare hike.

Kate Hinds: Didn't that used to be in the spring?

Stephen Nessen: It used to be in August, actually.

Kate Hinds: Oh, they approved it in the spring.

Stephen Nessen: They discussed it in the spring. They approved it in the spring and then goes into effect in August. They're pushing it back this year. Crazy year. The single ride could go up to $3.

Kate Hinds: I'm talking to WNYC and Gothamist transportation reporter Stephen Nessen about subways, bike lanes, and more. We're taking your calls. 212-433-9692. Speaking of the subway, let's talk about what happened last week and the 28th Street Geyser. We're making it sound like a feature in Yellowstone.

Stephen Nessen: It is a geological feature. They could put it in tourist books.

Kate Hinds: Many of our listeners probably saw the footage from last week's flooding. Why was 28th Street hit so hard?

Stephen Nessen: That was a question I was asking as well, because if you recall, during Ida, the same thing happened. These videos, if you haven't seen them, we can describe it. It's like really stunning. It's like a subway platform. Everyone knows what a subway platform looks like, but there's just an immense amount of water coming out of the manhole just in spurts, and it's just shooting up. You can imagine if you were on the platform, it would just be terrifying. It looks like you could just get swept away in this rush of water.

Kate Hinds: In the videos I saw, people looked fairly sanguine. I was really proud of our New Yorkers.

Stephen Nessen: I think everything looks worse in a video.

Kate Hinds: Yes, that's true.

Stephen Nessen: You can't see the bigger picture. Anyways. You want to know why is this happening? That's the question I wanted to ask as well. I went to an ecologist who's an expert in New York City topography and geography. Basically, what he pointed me to was the fact that before New York City, Manhattan was developed, it was a lot of marshland there. 28th Street sits in this marshy bowl, where all these different streams funnel into. The subway station is just smack in the middle of this marsh. When we get a heavy rainstorm, rain still flows in that direction. They built on top of the marsh, but they didn't excavate the marsh, so that it was no longer there.

The bowl that existed historically is still there. The water flows in naturally. That's where water goes when it wants to go back to the ocean. It goes into these marshes and streams. That's why it happens. He was saying we've actually really made it worse because we've removed all the soil with the trees that may have absorbed some of this water in the past. That makes it worse. Of course, with climate change, these localized storms where it just dumps immense amount of water in a short period of time is also unprecedented. We're just getting more and more of them.

Add to that, the sewer system was designed 100 years ago, and it was designed for the rainstorms of that time, not for these epic downpours. You combine all these elements, and you get a subway geyser.

Kate Hinds: The MTA is already pumping out millions of gallons of water on a dry day.

Stephen Nessen: They told me 10 million gallons of water on a dry day.

Kate Hinds: That's nuts.

Stephen Nessen: 15 on a heavy storm.

Kate Hinds: We got a text from a listener that says, "Wait, can I still tap my credit card?" I think we're talking about when the Metro card goes away.

Stephen Nessen: Yes. OMNY tap. I think what the MTA envisions-- I think what their goal for this system was, was not necessarily to have a card, although they obviously have to make a card available to people who don't have a credit card. They just assume a future where so many people just use their phones or their credit cards for everything, and you have the little chip in it, you just tap. You don't have to think about it.

Kate Hinds: We'll be back with more of your calls and more transportation talk with Stephen Nessen in just a moment. First, I wanted to say if you've been enjoying this conversation or any of the other discussions we have on this show or any of the shows here on WNYC, we're asking for a favor. Congress has voted to end federal funding for public broadcasting. It means WNYC and WQXR will lose nearly $6 million over the next two years. Your support is critical. Stand with us and start or increase your monthly sustaining donation now by going to wnyc.org. We'll be back in a minute to keep talking transit with Stephen Nessen. Don't go anywhere. This is All Of It.

[music]

Kate Hinds: This is All Of It. I'm Kate Hinds in for Alison Stewart. We are talking transportation with WNYC and Gothamist reporter Stephen Nessen. Let's get to some of your phone calls. Let's hear from Sky in Brooklyn. Hi Sky, you're on All Of It.

Sky: Hi guys, how are you?

Kate Hinds: Good. How are you?

Sky: I'm doing great. My question pertains to the bike lanes in the city. I'm an avid biker, and now my daughters are bikers, 13-year-old and 9-year-old. Recently, we saw an armada of Amazon pedal carts coming down the bike lane. My question is, what is the city doing about dedicating and keeping these bike lanes for actual cyclists as opposed to delivery people? Thank you so much, guys.

Kate Hinds: Thanks for calling. Sky. Stephen, take it away.

Stephen Nessen: Sky, that's a great question. I myself am also an avid biker, and I have been passed by these-- It's like a three-wheel Tuk Tuk, almost, with-- is piled high with Amazon deliveries. It's a great question. I don't know that the city has any intention of getting them out of the bike lane. I do know they're trying to encourage more of these deliveries. They have these micro hubs that they're piloting, so trucks can make deliveries in these one locations and then send out their trucks to make the local deliveries, to get the trucks off the road.

I haven't heard so much about getting those actual bikes out of the bike lanes. I think in the past when DOT has done presentations for the press about this, they've shown how-- it's like, "Look, these are so much better than delivery trucks in your neighborhood." I think they're encouraging them to actually use the bike lane. Like you said, when you see an armada of them coming toward you and they're jostling along and crowding you out of this narrow bike lane, that's also not pleasant.

Kate Hinds: I was wondering, who is allowed to use a bike lane? If you have a motorcycle, can you use a bike lane? If you have an e-bike, can you use a bike lane?

Stephen Nessen: I think if you have a, whatever the class is that requires a license plate, you need to go in a vehicle lane. Every other vehicle, I believe is allowed in the lane, in the bike lane.

Kate Hinds: Listeners, you can get in on this conversation. Give us a call. 212-433-9692. 212-433-WNYC. Stephen, since we're talking about bike lanes, let's talk about one that has been in the news a lot lately. Bedford Avenue in Brooklyn. Tell us what it is. What was supposed to happen? What is happening?

Stephen Nessen: This is a very controversial bike lane. It runs through Bedford-Stuyvesant to South Williamsburg. It's in the news now because just last year the DOT installed a protected bike lane there. Protected, for those who don't know, means there is a row of parked cars between the curb and the street. In that lane in between, that's protected for cyclists. You're not likely to be clipped by a moving vehicle. That is the preferred gold standard for bike lanes. That's what cyclists prefer to ride in because it's the safest.

Many people in Williamsburg, the orthodox Jewish community there, don't necessarily love the bike lanes. In May, a little girl was crossing in the middle of the street and was clipped by an e-bike rider, and she was flung to the ground. There's video of this, and it was obviously sent around on social media. The people of the community there were outraged, and they called on Mayor Adams to remove this bike lane. Mayor Adams, as we all know, is running for reelection and has been very pliable to community pressure, especially well-connected members of certain communities, whether it's in Greenpoint with businesses that have business or have donated to the mayor. He really listens to them.

In Fordham, he also capitulated to a bus lane redesign that folks didn't want there. Well-connected people. In Williamsburg, the orthodox Jewish vote is one that he definitely is trying to court. By throwing them a bone, so to speak, saying, "Sure, I'll remove part of the bike lane." He pushed to remove three blocks of it from Flushing to Willoughby, which is quite crucial because it would send drivers into this very busy three lanes of traffic. Excuse me, bikers into this busy lane.

A judge said, "Hold on, hold on. You can't just do that." Then a judge reversed himself and said, "Wait, actually, you can." Then the judge came back and said, "Wait, hold on, you can't." Groups have sued to stop this. It's working its way through the courts now. The current status is the bike lane is in place. A judge says you cannot remove it yet, but it'll be decided in the courts now.

Kate Hinds: Let's go back below ground. Second Avenue subway. The next leg is scheduled to open in 2032. Remind me of-- Currently, the Second Avenue subway goes from where to 96th Street. It's like 53rd and it's the Q train.

Stephen Nessen: The Q train, right. They added the three new stops. That was actually my very first day as a transit reporter, was to cover the opening of the Second Avenue subway. I thought, "Wow, this is fun. Look at New York. It's really doing stuff." Things are really happening. Those three new stops--

Kate Hinds: Excelsior.

Stephen Nessen: Excelsior, exactly. That was widely celebrated. Then suddenly everyone's like, "Wait a minute. What did it take to get this done?" What it took was diverting massive amounts of resources to the subway system, which led to the summer of hell. We got the three new Second Avenue subway stations open, and they're massive and huge, and people are later like, "Wait, did it need to be that big?" Even the MTA admitted those stations are unnecessarily big, or they didn't need to be that large. That led to a lot of the expense. It was infamously dubbed the most expensive mile of subway by the New York Times, and that's a moniker that's so hard to live down.

That said, the MTA is progressing with its next phase of the Second Avenue subway going to 116th Street. This is really crucial, and it's really interesting stretch, because part of it was already dug in the '70s. They're not totally doing this from scratch, but they do need to retrofit and build up these tunnels to make them safer and bigger and wider to accommodate everything. That work is underway, and the MTA is currently doing the stuff that they do to get this done, which is securing rights to property, relocating utilities, and essentially, that's where they are in the process right now. We don't have any fun junkets underground to see digging just yet.

Kate Hinds: [laughs] How much is it going to cost, and when is it going to open?

Stephen Nessen: Good question. I don't have the date in front of me. It's going to still cost billions to happen, and it's not going to be done for some time, I can say.

Kate Hinds: I can tell you that our producer, Simon Close, researched it and came up with it's scheduled to open in 2032.

Stephen Nessen: '32. Thank you.

Kate Hinds: It's meant to cost $7.7 billion.

Stephen Nessen: Yes.

Kate Hinds: In the few minutes we have left, we just have a-- Let's get through a couple more things. I'm going to throw you my lightning round of questions.

Stephen Nessen: Oh, boy. Hit me.

Kate Hinds: Hot car summer. What subway lines have the air conditioning that has failed the most and what is being done to address it?

Stephen Nessen: Notoriously, it's the one line right next to WNYC as well. We love the one here, but not the hot car. The MTA is working on it, although the problem is they have these ancient train yards where it's actually hard to access the air conditioner at some points. That's why you often have hot cars, because it's just harder to fix them. It's just older system. If one part of it fails, the whole thing fails. Whereas the newer cars, they have some redundancy. I've been enjoying the cool R211s. They seem to have very reliable air conditioners.

Kate Hinds: Speaking of new subway cars, when are we going to get-- Are we going to get more of the new fancy open gangway trains that are currently running on the C and the G lines?

Stephen Nessen: Yes, it turned out people actually love these trains. There was a lot of-

Kate Hinds: Love them.

Stephen Nessen: -trepidation from the MTA about them, and they initially only rolled out on the C train. Now they're running on the G line. They're not really in full wide service yet. They're on very limited lines, but they're popular enough with the public. The MTA hasn't had too many issues that we've heard about. They did put in an order for some more of them with their new order of train cars that'll be coming in the coming years.

Kate Hinds: Stephen, is there anything I didn't ask you that you especially wanted to make sure our listeners know about?

Stephen Nessen: What a question. I think OMNY is really the biggest concern that I'm hearing from a lot of folks, and a lot of confusion.

Kate Hinds: We have a lot of texts about OMNY and the price of the monthly Metro card and how sad we are to see that go away.

Stephen Nessen: I would say stay tuned. The MTA is well aware that people do like and love the 30-day. I imagine there could be some news on that front, especially as the OMNY card goes away. There's also all the problems with people being overcharged, or at least it looked like they were overcharged. You had the same problem where you couldn't even tap in. It said your account was canceled. Yes, a lot of OMNY technological hiccups that they supposedly have resolved, although I still hear people complaining from time to time.

There were some major problems with the software update, and that just blew everything up. It does point to a lot of distrust people have of the system of the MTA. They complain that we're doing good, we're a new MTA. Then these things happen, and people are really frustrated to see it. They want everything to work right. It doesn't always happen that way.

Kate Hinds: As we know. Stephen Nessen is a transportation reporter for WNYC and Gothamist. Stephen, thanks so much for joining us.

Stephen Nessen: Thank you for having me, Kate.