Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. 10 years ago, 4 friends decided to open a restaurant and wine bar in Williamsburg. The only problem, they had no restaurant experience. None. The group included musician LCD Soundsystem's James Murphy. They had no idea what they were getting into. Luckily, they hired some great people to help them out, including head chef Nick Curtola and manager Amanda McMillan. A decade later, The Four Horsemen is a Michelin-starred restaurant with a devoted following. Thanks in large part to the atmosphere curated by Amanda and the excellent food coming out of Nick's kitchen.

This year, Pete Wells at The New York Times ranked The Four Horsemen as the 17th best restaurant in New York City. Now, those looking to bring some of that Four Horsemen vibe home with them are in luck, thanks to a new cookbook. It's titled The Four Horsemen: Food and Wine for Good Times from the Brooklyn Restaurant. It is out now. Joining me now are Nick Curtola, head chef at The Four Horsemen. Hi, Nick.

Nick Curtola: Hello. Nice to meet you.

Alison Stewart: Nice to meet you. And Amanda McMillan, manager of the restaurant. Hi, Amanda.

Amanda McMillan: Hi, Alison. Thanks for having us.

Alison Stewart: Nick, when this team of inexperienced, we'll call them, restaurant owners, reached out to you about joining as head chef, what did you think?

Nick Curtola: Yes, I was very excited. It was very nice to get the opportunity to do something. I feel like I had been at that time cooking professionally for over 10, 12 years, and I knew I was ready to take a leap of faith. Yes, I'm glad they had that faith in me to do so.

Alison Stewart: Were you nervous about their lack of experience?

Nick Curtola: A little bit, but I always felt like we had a lot of conversations leading up to the opening that gave me-- I knew they had good instincts. I knew they had been around the world and seen some great restaurants, and we all were in alignment with the vision of what we wanted to open in New York. I think because of that I knew good things could happen.

Alison Stewart: Amanda, what made you want to sign on to manage this restaurant?

Amanda McMillan: I was really excited about wine at that time, and I feel like the idea of-- To drink the wines that we really liked. Ten years ago in New York, there were a few places like Ten Bells and a few other spots where you could go, but it was a lot of fine dining restaurants, and I was excited about working with Justin and learning these wines and getting access to that cellar. Then as I met-- I'd eaten Nick's food and I loved it. I was like, "Okay, this guy is onto something." Then when I met the four partners, I really was excited by their energy and their point of view, and I think I was just generally excited by the project.

Alison Stewart: Nick, from what I understand, you had about a year from when you signed on with The Four Horsemen to learn. To actually the restaurant actually opened. What were you trying out in that year? How did you develop the culinary identity of the restaurant?

Nick Curtola: Yes, I think at that point, we had a lot of dinners between myself and the owners, where I would just cook and we would talk about restaurants that we love and influences. I think I was just trying to distill all of my time in cooking and in the industry into my own personal style of food that I felt like maybe would be unique and hopefully new to the New York food scene. Yes, I think in that time, I was lucky to have the luxury of one year to really work on it. I even look back on that opening menu, and it's so much different than what we do now. We've evolved so much that looking back on that time is funny.

Alison Stewart: What's one of the things you look back on, and you think, "Mm-hmm that was a nice idea?" Not anymore, but how was that was a nice idea at the time.

Nick Curtola: Yes, we opened up as a wine bar, and so I think at that time, we were doing a lot of cheese plates and charcuterie, and we had the beef tartare and going through the motions of these really amazing wine bars that we had seen around the world and just plugging in our own take on those iconic dishes. I think going back and seeing that stuff is always funny. Looking at us now, and we're a full-fledged restaurant. I still remember the weeks where we finally dropped those initial dishes and initial menu items and realized, "Okay, we're doing our thing now." Yes, that was pretty special.

Alison Stewart: Amanda, you joined in one of the first few months of the restaurant starting, what was something from that time that has stayed the same, that has just been a sort of an emblematic of the restaurant? What's something that changed? Completely changed.

Amanda McMillan: Oh, man. So many things on both. The spirit of the restaurant has always, I think, been the same. I think the vision and the goal and the commitment to quality. Sort of the attitude that-- There's nothing that's too difficult. We really all get excited about making things as good as we possibly can. I think that level of commitment is still there. We fold our toilet paper like little paper airplanes and sticker these little Four Horsemen stickers on it. We have a very special way that we fold the napkins when we get up. When people get up to go to the bathroom, there's all these little touches.

I feel like from the beginning, that was something that we all geeked out on, and over the years, have just gotten to double down on again and again.

Alison Stewart: Yes. In the introduction to the book, you say that some of the success of the restaurant has been caring about those little details. Why do caring about those details matter in the big picture of the restaurant?

Amanda McMillan: I think a lot of people go to restaurants for a lot of different-- People go to restaurants for a lot of different reasons. I think that a lot of times people are not necessarily big foodies. Maybe eating at restaurants isn't their hobby, but they are just getting together with friends, and when they leave a place, they have a feeling of, "Oh, I liked that. That was really nice. I like that place." Sometimes I used to work in the fashion industry, and a lot of my friends don't work in the restaurant industry. I'll hear people be like, oh, I really like that place.

They'll be talking about a place that has just decent food, but not amazing food. I think a lot of people like places because they feel good in there, but they're not sure what it is that's making them feel good. It's all these little details, like the acoustics, the lighting, the space between tables. Considering all these little details. I think that ideally, all of those details come together, and people just have a great time with their friends and don't even clock the details, and they just leave being like, "Oh, that was really nice." I think that's something that we have been committed to from the beginning.

Alison Stewart: I'm speaking with Nick Curtola, head chef of The Four Horsemen in Williamsburg, and Amanda McMillan, manager of the restaurant. The new cookbook is called The Four Horsemen: Food and Wine for Good Times from the Brooklyn Restaurant. All right, so in the introduction to the book, Nick, the founders say that Nick's response to ideas was often no, and, Amanda, your response was always yes. All right, why would you say no, Nick? Then, Amanda, you can weigh in and say, why would you say yes?

Nick Curtola: Yes, I'm just like. I like to paint myself as a realist sometimes, and just having worked in the industry as long as I had, there were just certain things that, I don't know, had to be done a certain way, or at least like, that's what I thought. I think in my mind I always just wanted the food to be as good as it could be, and I wanted the experience to be as good as it could be. Anything that got in the way of making that more difficult or seemingly potentially not possible, I would instinctively say, yes, I don't know about that. If that wasn't an option, then we do our best to make it as good as we could.

Alison Stewart: Amanda, did that end up being a good balance?

Amanda McMillan: It did end up being a good balance. I think Nick and I are so opposite in ways that when we come together, is really great. I think Nick is really organized. He's really methodical. He plans a lot. He really thinks things through and toils over the details. I think that really comes through in his food because he tests things. It's like he really tinkers with stuff until it's perfect and until he's ready to put it out into the world. That's one of the reasons why I like working with him because I know anything he does is going to be really great and really thought out.

I'm the opposite in that I jump and figure out the landing midair. I feel like I'm just like, we'll figure it out. We'll make it work.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Amanda McMillan: I think that's a skill that I have. I think it served me pretty well in front of house stuff because you have to really think on your feet a lot. Sometimes when a certain thing will come up we'll have the opposite reaction, and it's whenever we sort of both get our way to where things are really thoughtful and considered the way that Nick does, but also, there's room for spontaneity and I don't know. Yes, I think that's our whole thing.

Alison Stewart: Nick, when you change the menu, how do you determine that it's time to change the menu?

Nick Curtola: I think for me, a lot of it is just reading my staff. I lean pretty heavily on my kitchen and also the front of house, and if I see that there's maybe-- If I sense a little bit of boredom with the dish or I get the feeling that they want something new on the menu, that dictates it a lot of times. If we just get tired of something, if we've made thousands of it, it's like, all right, let's maybe move on. The fun thing is we can always revisit it a year or two down the road, and then people are excited about it again. A lot of it is also just seasonality or purveyors bringing us new things that we're excited about and light a fire inside of us.

A lot of it is dictated by staff and even regulars, and just the feeling that we have such a strong core of regulars and industry folks that come in that I feel like are looking to us to see what kind of changes are coming. I think that's really important to me. I feel like I constantly need to, I don't know, reevaluate the menu, bring new items on and just even revisit classic dishes and see if we can make them better. That's what we do. It's really fun.

Alison Stewart: Amanda, correct me if I'm wrong. I think there was an article that you were quoted in or was about you. That talked about how it's important to be a regular at a place.

Amanda McMillan: That's true. I think that was on Rezzy's blog. Talking about how to be a regular. I don't remember exactly the context of that article, but we do have so many regulars, and I think that's what makes the restaurant really special.

Alison Stewart: Nick, let's talk about your book, The Four Horsemen: Food and Wine for Good Times from the Brooklyn Restaurant. In the book, you talk about what you view as the essential for right ingredients to have, olive oil, vinegar, salt, black pepper, and garlic. Why are they the keys to making your dishes better? Why is sourcing the quality important?

Nick Curtola: Yes, I think because I think the food at The Four Horsemen at the end of the day is, I wouldn't say it's minimalist, but it's pretty pared down. I think because of that, it's really important that we source the best ingredients we can, because a lot of times the sourcing is what we're proud of, and showing off that ingredient is our aim. With regards to those other core ingredients, like olive oil for me is we use so much of it, so it's very important that it's high quality and we use different olive oils for different purposes.

Whether some of them are like a spicy or Spanish olive oil or a richer, more full-bodied Italian olive oil, it really does play a part in the final taste of a dish and what you put in a dish or a recipe, every ingredient is super important, especially if there's only a few of them in the dish. I think, yes, for us, just quality of ingredients, freshness, and just taking the time to source your ingredients is really important, especially if you're serving really simple food.

Alison Stewart: Amanda, it was really important to one of your founders that the restaurant make its own bread. Why do you think having great bread is a great part of a restaurant?

Amanda McMillan: Well, I mean, sort of going back to what we were saying about acoustics and all those little things, it's like bread is something that a lot of places maybe it's an afterthought. It's just on the table. It's maybe sourced from somewhere. I think having really special bread, it's so simple and it makes people feel cared for and it sort of is like the perfect example of our commitment to excellence is that it's the same sourdough starter that we've had for all these years. We mill our own grain. It's a 24 hour fermentation process.

It's crazy for a 40 seat restaurant to put so much work into their bread. I think that's sort of like, in a nutshell, what The Four Horsemen is all about. I feel like the bread is essential for the meal. It's like there's so much little bits of sauce on the plate that you have to sop up throughout the meal. Yes, the bread holds it all together.

Alison Stewart: Nick, if someone wanted to tackle one of your bread recipes at home, which one would you recommend?

Nick Curtola: I would say the focaccia. I feel like that's a pretty low lift and generally turns out pretty great.

Alison Stewart: If you had to, pasta is a big part of the cookbook as well. Do you have a favorite pasta recipe, Amanda?

Amanda McMillan: Well, I don't make my own pasta, so I get to work near Nick, and the team have access to all of this stuff. Favorite pasta, though, that Nick does, the bucatini al limone is really special. It's really simple and sort of what he was talking about, just quality of a few simple ingredients really shining through. I think that would maybe be my favorite.

Alison Stewart: Nick, what are some things people should keep in mind when they decide to make homemade pasta?

Nick Curtola: Oh, just be patient. Realize you're probably not going to nail it the first time. I even remember when I first started cooking, I would always try to make pasta at home on my days off, and I screwed it up so many times. I think just being along for the ride and realizing not everything's going to work the first time you do it. You have to learn from your mistakes. That's such a big part of cooking. I feel like once you can wrap your head around that and you can be a little bit more flexible with realizing that that's just part of it, then I think you can enter that next level of cooking.

Alison Stewart: The first chapter in the book, The Four Horsemen: Food and Wine for Good Times from the Brooklyn Restaurant, is about fried snacks. What are some of your tips for frying at home?

Nick Curtola: I would say for me, I like to fry in a pretty deep pot just to be safe, not put a lot of oil. Give yourself a lot of headroom. I fry at home. Sometimes I just use a Dutch oven, essentially, with a few inches of oil, and just be around. If you're going to be frying at home, do not walk away from the oil and just heat the oil low and slow. Don't crank the heat on high and do something else. The slower you heat it, the bigger your window for catching it at the right temperature. I think those are two pretty good tips. Just don't add anything too wet to the oil. That's a recipe for disaster.

Alison Stewart: You say that real cooks make great salads. Nick, what's the key to making a salad feel really special?

Nick Curtola: I think seasonality, finding ingredients in the moment. If you can go to your farmer's market, see what's available. I think just really finding a good balance of a bright-- I really like a lot of bright, acidic salads. Obviously, good nuts, perfectly toasted nuts, and nice cheeses really help. I like, even citrus salads. Just nice. In the wintertime when it's cold and dark outside, it's nice to have that nice, bright pop of fresh, juicy citrus with a little bit of Calabrian chili or something to bring a little heat and some nice fresh herbs. I think just keeping everything really light and fresh and simple.

Alison Stewart: Amanda, you got a Michelin star. Was it a surprise?

Amanda McMillan: We got a Michelin star. I didn't get a Michelin star. Even just hearing that, since I'm like, "Oh, it wasn't me. It was everyone." It was a huge surprise. I think that for a long time, we were working so hard, and we were so proud of what we were doing, and we felt like we had like, all of our regulars were industry. There were so many chefs and wine people, in front of house people from other restaurants that were coming over and over, and foodies. Just the caliber of regulars we had made us think, "Okay, we're doing something right." But we hadn't gotten any recognition. We were always skipped on the lists of best, whatever.

When we got the Michelin star, it was totally out of left field. It had been so many years of us getting no recognition that we had just sort of given up, and we're like, you know what? We're just going to do this for us and for our regulars. We don't care about the accolades. When we got it it's one of those things where it's really easy to be like, "Oh, Yes, I don't care about the accolades." Then you get the accolade, and you really care. You're like, "Yes, we have Michelin star." It's the most beautiful golden feather in all of our caps. We're so proud of it.

Alison Stewart: Amanda McMillan and Nick Curtola, they're from The Four Horsemen. The name of the cookbook is The Four Horsemen: Food and Wine for Good Times from the Brooklyn Restaurant. Thanks for being with us, guys.

Nick Curtola: Thanks for having us.