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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in Soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you're here. On today's show, we'll learn about the new documentary Minted, which covers the rise and fall of how NFTs work and how they've transformed the art world, and we'll devote the second hour of today's show to our favorite topic here at All Of It, books. What are you looking forward to reading. Get Lit producer Jordan Lauf is here to share her list and we want to hear yours. That is our plan. Let's get this started with the new film The Fire Inside. [music]

Alison Stewart: In 2012, 17-year-old Claressa "T. Rex" Shields won a gold medal for boxing at the Olympics. Have you heard of her? Was she on a box of Wheaties? No. No, she wasn't. Despite her talent, she went back to school and struggled to make ends meet. A new biopic starring my next guest, actor Ryan Destiny, tells her story. It's called The Fire Inside. In the film, we're introduced to a young Claressa who is eager to get in the ring. There's just one obstacle. Girls really aren't allowed to train with the boys, however, the coach, Jason Crutchfield, played by Brian Tyree Henry, makes an exception and agrees to be her coach.

He becomes father figure to her as she's struggling with some issues, including her mother's guests at home. The two of them form a partnership which leads them all the way to the London Olympics, but even after an epic win, life isn't as glorious on the other side. The New York Times gave the film a rave review stating, "At first you might be tricked into thinking it's a standard issue inspirational sports movie. The young athlete with the rough background beating the odds and more coming out on top, but The Fire Inside has a little more going on under the hood than your average sports movie.

The Fire Inside is playing at theaters now. The film's director, Rachel Morrison is here with me to discuss. She was nominated for an Oscar for best Cinematography for her work on Mudbound in 2018. Rachel, welcome.

Rachel Morrison: Thank you. Good to be here.

Alison Stewart: Also joining me is actor Ryan Destiny, who has been nominated for an Independent Spirit Award and an NAACP Image Award for her portrayal as Shields. It's nice to meet you, Ryan.

Ryan Destiny: Nice to meet you too.

Alison Stewart: Rachel, what does Claressa Shields' story-- why does it feel right for the big screen?

Rachel Morrison: Why the big screen? I think boxing is this incredibly immersive experience. You have two people, hand to hand combat in a ring. I think the fact that it is so inspirational, not just inside the ring, but outside of it is-- especially in this day and age and with everything going on, I feel like those are the stories that can really bring people together, to be in a communal experience sharing that kind of inspiration, tears, cheers, and everything in between in the movie theater. That and more.

Alison Stewart: What was compelling to you, Ryan, about Claressa Shields' story?

Ryan Destiny: So many things. So many things about her are inspirational, besides the fact that she's the superhuman that is one of the best out of the women that are out there doing that. She's also just a fighter in real life. She's someone who's so inspirational and she's really beat the odds. Growing up in Flint, Michigan is no easy feat, and I think that there were a lot of layers to that and so many layers to her as a person. It was so many things that I think just made me really connect with it and want to learn more about it and just want to be a part of this little piece of just telling that story.

Alison Stewart: Rachel, the script was written by Barry Jenkins. What was different about his script for The Fire Inside than your typical sports movie?

Rachel Morrison: You alluded to it when you were describing the film. It's this very unique opportunity to completely upend the sports biopic, actually. Most inspirational sports movies have a pretty traditional format. Things start hard, you work really hard. You have a setback, you double down, and then you win. What happens after the win is the heart of our film. To not end where you would expect to, to test at the very moment that most films cut to the credits and you're cheering is really when ours doubles down ourselves and it becomes about so much more.

I say it's not just an inspirational sports movie, it's an inspirational life movie. The life part of it, the human part of it, is so incredibly both relatable and inspiring. Nobody really gets to stay on top forever, actually. I think there's something almost more aspirational about the version where you have to pick yourself back up off the ground.

Alison Stewart: I was going to ask, what's in this movie for people who aren't particularly interested in the athletics?

Rachel Morrison: Now that the movie's out and we're starting to hear from some of the audience, you hear from people who said, "I never thought I would like a boxing movie, but I loved this." I think it's because it is so much more than a boxing movie. It really delves into some of the relationships, a lot of interesting, complex, dynamic, nuanced relationships where you have characters who are well intentioned but flawed. I think there's an authenticity to it that people can really find their way into.

Then Claressa as this just incredibly inspiring-- I know we both keep saying inspiring, but her resilience is astounding. The amount of times she has to pick herself up again and again, the amount of obstacles she faces and just won't stay down. I think there's a lot of humanity to it that people-- Also, look, she's a 17-year-old high school senior, actually 16-year-old high school junior into 17-year-old high school senior, so you also have love interests and proms, all the things that a teenage girl go through, at the same time, the vulnerability outside of the ring and then this dominant, fierce fight inside the ring. So really so much for Ryan to explore and she really knocks it out of the park, pun intended.

Alison Stewart: Ryan, people know you from Star, from Grown-ish. What do you consider when you talk to your people and say, "Hey, I'm going to audition for this role"? What does it need to have? What do you consider when you're auditioning?

Ryan Destiny: I think with this project in particular, it really didn't take any convincing from any parts, not from my team, not for me. It was more so just really hoping for the best. I knew it was something that I would love to do, was a dream to do to not only work with who I got to work with, but also have a story like this one where it's bigger than me and also would challenge me in a lot of different ways from physically to emotionally.

That excited me. It scared me, which I don't think was a bad thing. I think that sometimes it's really good for it to scare you a little bit and still just go for it. I think initially it was just me hoping for the best, not really knowing what was going to happen and how, but definitely going for it because I knew it was just too rare of an opportunity to not to.

Alison Stewart: What was scary?

Ryan Destiny: Oh, my God, all of it. I think it was knowing that I've never boxed in my life. That was one aspect of it. Playing a real person who is alive and well and still creating history, that was scary, also stripping completely down and playing something that no one's ever seen this side of me before. It was going to be completely different and a shock to how people normally perceive me.

I think there were so many moving parts [unintelligible 00:08:52] and why I was scared, so it was just everything. Also working with people that I look up to and have accomplished so much of, I didn't want to let them down or, or not perform my best. That can be a little daunting in itself, too.

Alison Stewart: I'm speaking with director Rachel Morrison and actor Ryan Destiny, who plays Olympic gold medalist Claressa Shields in the new biopic The Fire Inside. All right. Brian Tyree Henry, he just makes everything better. Can I just say that out loud?

Ryan Destiny: Yes.

Rachel Morrison: He really does.

Alison Stewart: He plays with Jason Crutchfield. He plays your coach. Would you describe this character for me, Rachel?

Rachel Morrison: Brian does make everything better, truly.

Alison Stewart: He really does.

Rachel Morrison: Often, he plays these very charismatic leaps-off-the-page roles. I think what was so unique here is to see him play a grounded everyman, but the best version of that. He is a good father, a good human, a good coach, again, not without flaws. I care very much about a reality where people have all kinds of layers to them. Brian, talk about nuance, he has layers coming out of his layers, but in this case, he really gets to be human and a good husband.

I think that relationship takes on the father-daughter qualities and also meant mentor, coach, trainer-trainee, and sometimes that line gets fuzzy. These are based on real people. Claressa's real experience with Jason Crutchfield is that at some point he was very concerned about the boyfriend and no dating in the gym and not wanting her to be distracted by some of the things that could easily-- "Make sure you get good grades." Where father and teacher overlap and how sometimes they can be pulling in different directions.

At the same time, they make each other laugh. there's so much chemistry both between real Jason and real Claressa, and then between Brian and Ryan that both, again, leaps off the screen, but also, for me as a director, it was such a gift because that was from practically day 1 on set. Brian and Ryan were making each other laugh and just that chemistry was palpable.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to a clip from The Fire Inside. This is Jason Crutchfield speaking to his wife about Claressa wanting to box. Let's listen.

Jason Crutchfield: What you think about girls boxing?

Mickey Rouse: No. You ain't finna have my baby up in no gym.

Keisha: I can fight. See? Watch my hands. Pow, pow, pow, pow, pow.

Corey: No you can't.

Mickey Rouse: All right. Corey, Keisha [unintelligible 00:11:49]

Jason Crutchfield: Hey, look, I'm not talking about our kids. I'm talking about this little girl named Claressa. She come down to the gym. She from over there in Frogtown.

Mickey Rouse: Jackie's little girl?

Jason Crutchfield: Yes.

Mickey Rouse: What's she doing all the way over at Burster?

Jason Crutchfield: She want to fight, I guess. She went all the way there most days.

Mickey Rouse: Probably trying to get away from that messed up house. Don't see no reason why she can't. She got hands.

Jason Crutchfield: Yes, she do. She do. I don't know, I just never--

Mickey Rouse: You ain't never what?

Jason Crutchfield: I just ain't never thought about no girls boxing.

Mickey Rouse: Why is that?

Alison Stewart: Ryan, what is something you learned from Brian Tyree Henry that you'll take forward with you to the next film or the next film?

Ryan Destiny: It's hard to pinpoint one thing. I know for me, I really respected the energy that he brought onto set, and I think that that's something that means a lot to everyone and really sets a tone for the cast, the crew. It's just something that's really important because they are very long days, so having the right energy, I think, really goes a long way. I think that's one of the things out of the hundreds of things that he's really instilled in me.

Also, naturally, he's become a brother. I think having that mentorship, naturally, outside of all of the craziness in the industry and work is something that is also very important. I would love to be that for somebody else when the time is right and in the future, whenever that happens, because I think that is also very important because it just can get very crazy. To have this different perspective of somebody that's done a lot and accomplished a lot is just very, very, very special and very helpful. Those two things I'll say.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk boxing. Rachel, what is something you learned about boxing that you had no clue about before this film?

Rachel Morrison: I started training, actually. I felt like it would be important to understand what it felt like to hit and be hit and really mind of the game, this film, so I started training now three, four years ago. It's actually a quite simple sport. It's not an easy sport, but in terms of, there are only so many ways you can throw a punch or duck a punch, so I think it really informed the way that we shot, being able to really understand that and what it's like to feel the claustrophobia, being up against the ropes or whatever that is.

I made a decision to really try to shoot this in an immersive way that would help the audience feel like they were in the ring with Claressa or even that they were Claressa. For me, it was really important to not feel like we were spectators in the audience watching something through the ropes, but we were in the ring fighting. I think that was my goal for the whole film, is that I want the audience to leave feeling like they walked a mile in Claressa's shoes, in this case, they're boxing shoes, and she's in a ring and she's getting punched or she's punching.

I was really committed to trying to get that experience right. I think nothing was more nerve wracking than showing Claressa, arguably the greatest female boxer of all time, our boxing movie. Not only did she love Ryan's performance and everything about the film, but the boxing. I think she was really pleasantly surprised to feel like we did justice to it and that meant everything to us.

Alison Stewart: Now, Ryan, you did your own stunts?

Ryan Destiny: I did.

Alison Stewart: Hats off to you. What did that do for you as an actor by doing your own stunts?

Ryan Destiny: I think naturally, it really puts you in that head space a lot more, especially when I did have to do the scenes in the ring and for the Olympics in particular. Being able to be there throughout every second really keeps you in the space that you need to be in for all of the little nuances and the movements and the emotion. I think it was really helpful without, I guess, realizing it.

Me or Rachel, we didn't say, "You're going to do your own stunts, and that's just it." It wasn't something that we were like, "Okay, this is what's going to happen." It just naturally, really happened that way, I think me trusting myself more as the process went on too, I knew what I wanted things to look like, I knew when I could do something better. Being able to do my own stunts, I guess, is really important with that perfectionist outlook that I have on a lot of things. Overall, it really challenged me and helped me with the overall performance.

Alison Stewart: Did you ever get hurt, you're like, "Yo, time out, enough"?

Ryan Destiny: I did, because I was actually doing the stunts with real boxers. They weren't professional stunt people. They were boxers first. It was new for both of us and having to learn about space and distance and making sure that we were close enough but far away enough. Sometimes it would make contact. I think the adrenaline is also still there. I didn't necessarily like, "Oh my God, we got to stop. We got to keep going, actually, because you never know, that could be a really good shot that they got." It was a little painful, but it was good. I think it was all for good reason.

Alison Stewart: Rachel, every director I've ever spoken to has said a big part of being director is making decisions. You make decision after decision after decision, and sometimes the decisions are hard. When was a time that it was hard on The Fire Inside?

Rachel Morrison: I think you're right to speak to the quantity of them. It's a thousand micro decisions a day, and at some point the weight of the thousand micro decisions starts to feel heavy. When was a single time it was hard? Our shoot actually, once we started shooting went really smoothly. Thank God. We had one scene that I had always intended to be a oner, and I'd never imagined it any other way. A oner meaning a single uninterrupted shot for almost a minute, and it was a full fight scene. Again, speaking to, Ryan was going to have to get every punch right. That space, facial distance relationship was going to have to sell.

I had an operator climbing through the ropes to take-- The camera was going on a crane through the ropes while the operator climbed in, and then dismounting the camera from the crane and moving around the ring with our fighters. The first five or six takes, we felt the camera pull off the crane. There was that moment where you're just like, "Wait, this isn't what I had in mind. I don't have a backup plan."

I think that decision was like, "Do we quickly abandon mission and come up with some other plan in the very few hours we have left, or do we keep working through this?" In the end, we worked through it and figured out that the magnet was actually too strong, and I think it was a very simple fix to get. Ultimately, I would say it's the quantity of decisions, not any one specific decision.

Alison Stewart: We're speaking with director Rachel Morrison and actor Ryan Destiny. We are talking about their new film, The Fire Inside. Let's listen to one more clip. This is Claressa in a meeting with representatives from the U.S. Olympic team. We'll listen to it and talk about it on the other side.

Jason Crutchfield: Well, I don't have the connections, the contacts. You feel me? At first it was--

Claressa Shields: Look, all these other people getting these endorsements and sponsorships. Meanwhile, I can barely pay my mama rent.

Representative 1: Well, when it comes to someone getting behind Claressa, for someone to say, "I want this girl to represent my brand-

Claressa Shields: I've been wearing lip gloss and girly clothes just like y'all said.

Representative 1: That is helpful, Claressa. It really is, but, for example, we would love you to stop saying that you like hitting people and making them cry.

Claressa Shields: Why?

Representative 2: She just seems like a bully.

Claressa Shields: I box. I am a bully. Floyd a bully. Ward a bully. Hell, even Ali was a bully.

Representative 1: We understand that.

Claressa Shields: I can't be a bully because I'm a girl?

Jason Crutchfield: I get what y'all saying. I get what you're saying. It's a perception thing, right?

Representative 2: Exactly.

Claressa Shields: Oh, so it's my fault now?

Jason Crutchfield: Come on, now. They're trying to help us.

Claressa Shields: What happened to staying true to who you are? I won that gold medal by being me. Now to get endorsements and shit, y'all saying I got to be somebody else?

Representative 1: I know that you're disappointed. So are we. You deserve so much more recognition.

Claressa Shields: No, I don't deserve it. I earned it. I earned that gold medal. It's a big difference

Jason Crutchfield: She just wound up right now, y'all.

Claressa Shields: I'm just keeping it real. What?

Representative 2: What is it, Claressa? Is it the money? Is it the recognition?

Claressa Shields: Money is recognition.

Alison Stewart: Boom. Money is recognition. When you're playing these this part, there are times when it's really, really tense. How did you approach playing this really multi dimensional, this difficult, tense character, but then also showing her vulnerability?

Ryan Destiny: I think a lot of it for me was about understanding Claressa as deep as I possibly could, and just who she was to the core. A lot of that was very helpful from having conversations with her. A lot of that was really helpful from her documentary T-Rex, which really gave a front row seat into who she was with her family, with her coach, with her friends.

I think being able to see who she was also at that age was really, really important for me. It's one thing to talk to the person currently and who they are now, but it's another to understand that headspace. I think that just having an understanding of how she felt in that moment was really important to me and something that I tried to stay present for also, just because I just wanted it to be as honest and truthful as possible, but also make sure that it is true to who she was.

I think it was just a balance in trying to make sure I was taking all those elements and putting them in the right amount as possible. I guess it's just always a few different things and ways that you just try to make sure that you're executing it as honest as possible, so I think the honesty was the biggest part.

Alison Stewart: I've been speaking with filmmaker Rachel Morrison and actor Ryan Destiny about their new film, The Fire Inside, which is in theaters now. Thanks for making time today.

Rachel Morrison: Thanks for having us.

Ryan Destiny: Thank you. We appreciate it.