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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in SoHo. I'm so glad you're here. Here's what we have going on today. We'll take a look at the history and the impact of New York City's 1975 fiscal crisis. That gave us the infamous Daily News headline Ford to City: Drop Dead. That's all covered in the new documentary Drop Dead City: New York On the Brink in 1975. We'll talk with the filmmakers and take your calls. If you remember that chapter in history.

It's almost the last chance to catch the brilliant performance of Shakespeare's King Lear at The Shed. We'll talk with co-director Kenneth Branagh, who also plays the king himself. We'll also hear about a really funny new movie about a black New Yorker who finds himself stranded in an Eastern European town after chasing a promising opportunity that does not go as planned. We'll talk about The Black Sea with Crystal Moselle and Derek B. Harden, who also directed the film and is in the leading role. That is all in the way, but first, let's get into some of the news about the Garden State.

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Local journalism in Jersey has had a tough month recently. The state's largest newspaper, The Star Ledger, announced that it will end its print editions in February of 2025 and shift to an entirely digital operation. The Star Ledger is a Pulitzer Prize-winning paper that has covered New Jersey in some capacity for almost 200 years, including modern scandals like Bridgegate under Governor Chris Christie and the resignation of Governor Jim McGreevey. Fans of the Soprano knows that Tony was a loyal subscriber.

This news comes as no surprise as local journalism continues to financially struggle. This past election has demonstrated people's news consumption habits are evolving. Nancy Solomon is our senior politics reporter who covers New Jersey, and she's with me now to react to the news and how it might affect New Jersey's journalism and politics going forward. By the way, Nancy also hosts our monthly Ask the Governor call and show with Governor Phil Murphy. She's also the host of the excellent podcast Dead End: A New Jersey Political Murder Mystery. Hi, Nancy. Thanks for being with us.

Nancy Solomon: Hi, Allison. Thanks so much.

Alison Stewart: First of all, how did you react when you first heard the news?

Nancy Solomon: Oh, like a kick in the stomach for me, a loyal reader of The Star Ledger, but I will admit I don't get the paper edition anymore, so I guess I'm as much part of the problem. Every few months there's just bad news about decreasing resources for journalism in New Jersey, which has always had a tough time of getting the state covered because we are between two big metropolitan cities. New Jersey's always had a tough time getting news out to our residents. Over the last 20 years, it's gotten worse and worse. This is just sort of the latest, dare I say, nail in the coffin.

Alison Stewart: Yes. Has there been any indication from Star Ledger ownership as to the reason the newspaper will stop printing in 2025?

Nancy Solomon: They say it's rising costs of running the printing plant or leasing the printing plant, decreasing circulation overall, and then a reduced demand for print, making the cost of each individual paper higher. This is the reality. They are certainly by far not the only newspaper struggling with this. I think all newspapers are struggling with it. There have been a series of cutbacks at The Star Ledger and at other major newspapers in the state, as I said, over the last 20 years. They're going to continue publishing online. Management at The Star Ledger makes the argument that by cutting the printing press costs and the distribution of the actual print paper, they will be able to put more resources into their online journalism. We can hope for that.

Alison Stewart: I can remember getting The Star Ledger as a kid. I remember the paper boy threw it on the front steps. When you think about The Star Ledger's importance in New Jersey culture, how would you describe it?

Nancy Solomon: It's the largest newspaper in the state, and I loved your reference to Tony Soprano picking up that paper on the driveway at the beginning of the show as part of the lead-in. It doesn't really matter where you grew up. If you grew up at the time when newspapers landed on most people's doorsteps and were read in print, then you have a nostalgia and a fondness for that. The Star Ledger just happens to be the biggest newspaper. It's just been very sad to watch it decrease and decrease over the years that I've been here, seeing fewer reporters, fewer stories, even for the online edition. They've been through a series of layoffs and buyouts. Of course, they're not the only one. WNYC is not immune from this. We're also struggling.

There are major shifts going on in both the journalism coverage around the country but also in the way people get their news. We're faced with loss of people who are willing to subscribe because they're scrolling on TikTok or on any other social media and getting their news that way. It's been a long slog, and this is just the latest move in that slog.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, especially those of you in Jersey, how have you reacted to the news "The Star Ledger is going out of print in 2025 and shifting to a digital service"? Our phone lines are open for you. 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. What has the role The Star Ledger placed in your life? How much have you depended on the Ledger as a news source? What do you remember were the biggest stories they covered over the years? 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692.

Or maybe you're someone who worked at The Star Ledger at some point in your career. What was the culture like? What was your role? Finally, what consequences do you think there will be with The Star Ledger going out of print? How will it have an impact on culture, politics, and news? 212-433-9692. 212-433-WNYC. Nancy, as we wait for people to call in as part of this month's Ask the Governor program with New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy, you asked him about The Star Ledger news. Let's listen to a bit of what he had to say.

Governor Phil Murphy: This is a bad thing. Whether I agree with them or not, it is a bad thing. We need more and not less. Yes, if that means I take more arrows, then you know what? It doesn't get me jazzed, but that's the price I'm willing to pay. We all need to be able to pay that price.

Alison Stewart: What impact do you think The Star Ledger out of print may have on the governor's office and other political figures around the state?

Nancy Solomon: I'm not sure it'll have direct impact on the governor's office. Actually, let me back that up a little. One of the casualties of this latest retrenchment and move is that the editorial board and the editorial and op-ed staff at the newspaper is being cut in its entirety. There will be no op-eds in the online version. That's a pretty big loss.

Alison Stewart: It's huge.

Nancy Solomon: It's a loss of one person in particular, Tom Moran, who has been a stalwart in the New Jersey press corps and certainly among political reporters in New Jersey. Moran has been there for years doing really good work. He and the governor do not have a great relationship, and he's been a thorn in the governor's side for sure. I think that is one of the impacts, and I think that's what the governor was referencing, is that he doesn't like it that Moran is on his case, but he sees the value in it.

There are things that Tom Moran has written that I very much disagree with. But his role and the fact that he's there and that he's a good writer and writes about controversies in the state and politics in the state in a very lively way and calls out power, it's a huge loss. Do we have tape? I thought we might be able to play the tape of Chris Christie.

Alison Stewart: Let's do it. You bliss clip of Chris Christie addressing Tom as part of your Ask the Governor show.

Chris Christie: Tom, you must be the thinnest-skinned guy in America because you think that's a confrontational tone. Then you should really see me when I'm pissed.

Alison Stewart: When you talk about Tom's reputation, what was it?

Nancy Solomon: I think just to call out, he would just do it in this very-- he has a real touch writing. He would just call out political shenanigans and do it in a live way in his op-ed column. These are reported columns, so it's not to distinguish it from an editorial, which he was involved in writing the editorials, too. These are reported pieces where he has interviewed people, he's got facts in them, but he's also got a point of view and is making an argument. He would make very strong arguments.

In that clip from Chris Christie, he was asking-- I should have set it up better because he was asking the governor at the time whether his confrontational tone was doing him a disservice or disservice to the state that he wasn't going to be able to work with the legislature. These are the kinds of things. He has a very sharp eye and would call out all kinds of problems going back years and years.

Alison Stewart: We're discussing the news "The Star Ledger will no longer be in print in 2025." We are taking your calls as well. Let's talk to Max from Manhattan. Hi, Max. Thank you so much for calling All Of It.

Max: Hi, thanks for taking my call.

Alison Stewart: Yes. What do you think about The Star Ledger going out of print?

Max: Your conversation just really made me think about when I was a kid going to visit my grandfather in New Jersey back in the '80s. Every time we would show up, he would have a stack of Star Ledger funny sections with all the comics and cartoons which he'd saved just for me. That was like something that I always looked forward to and just made me think about how as things move to digital platforms, we really lose that intergenerational chance to connect. My son's grandparents aren't really saving funnies for him. When he's old enough to have a phone, I doubt they will be linking him to the news.

Alison Stewart: That's a beautiful story. Thanks so much for calling in. Let's talk to Jerry, who is calling from Hoboken. Hi, Jerry.

Jerry: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. Just like the reporter, I was so hurt when I heard that the print version of The Star Ledger was going to retire. I'm also part of the problem because I haven't bought the print version in literally years. Also, I want to talk about the other papers we're losing, the Trenton Times and especially The Jersey Journal, because I live here in Hudson County, and we'll lose Hudson County coverage. The Jersey Journal is also going out of business entirely. There will be no online version either. North Jersey will be left with the Bergen Record, which is a good paper, but that's it.

I have a question. In many papers, there's all that legal advertising which they're required to have about foreclosures and bids. I thought that's what kept papers alive these days. Why is that not keeping The Star Ledger and the Jersey Journal alive any longer?

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in. Nancy, do you have an answer for that?

Nancy Solomon: Yes. It's a great question. It's actually one of the big issues being discussed right now in the state legislature is that so many government units, whether it's towns or the counties, any kind of government function in the state is by law has to advertise and put in public notices of meetings or big bills or whatever that they're going to be-- ordinances that they're going to pass. That has been a source of revenue for newspapers. It is required by law that it be in print. Not online or not only online. Right now, there's a conversation, debate happening about what they're going to do about it because they're losing so many of the print publications in the state.

Why is that not enough to save a newspaper? Print edition I guess it just isn't. It is a source of revenue, and they do make money, but think about how much revenue has been lost. This is now what we're going on, 20 years of this. Craigslist was really the beginning of the death knell for newspapers because of the huge loss of classified ads. That was much more revenue. I don't actually know this is a fact, but I would expect that that was a lot more money coming in than what the legal ads business does. It is a source of revenue, but the answer is it isn't enough.

I'm glad the listener brought up The Jersey Journal. It's another loss. The Jersey Journal, owned by the same company, is not just losing its print edition. It's going out of business in totality. It was once a really good newspaper that covered Hudson County, Jersey City, Hoboken, et cetera. In the last few years, it's been cut back so much that I think it's kind of lost a lot of its readership because it just hasn't been as good. That's another huge loss. Hudson County, Jersey City, is sort of tied with Newark, is the biggest city in the state, huge important county. There's very little local news coverage of it.

Alison Stewart: We're talking about the news "The Star Ledger will no longer be in print beginning in 2025." My guest is Nancy Solomon, WNYC senior politics reporter for covering New Jersey. Jersey listeners, how have you reacted to the news "The Star Ledger is going out of print"? What role has The Star Ledger and its coverage played in your life? Give us a call. 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692, you can call in and join us on air or text to us at that number. We've got a couple of reporters online who will talk to us after the break. This is All Of It.

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You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. We're discussing the news "The Star Ledger will no longer be printing in 2025." My guest is Nancy Solomon, WNYC senior politics reporter covering New Jersey. We have a couple of reporters on the line right now. Let's talk to Bob, who's calling from Mercer County. Hi, Bob.

Bob: Hi. How are you doing, Allison? Nice to talk to you.

Alison Stewart: Yes. What's up?

Bob: Well, I think there are two stories that exemplify the Ledger. One was the Baby M case, if you recall that, and the other one was the Karen Ann Quinlan case. These were big stories that one involved surrogate motherhood, the other involved the right to die. There were about 10 reporters for The Star Ledger in Trenton. The other papers had big staffs, too, but there were real veterans like Linda LaMendola, Mike Paserchia, Tim O'Brien, Dan Weissman, Vince Aletti, Bob Schulenberg, Tom Johnson, Rick Remington, Cassie Barrett Carter. The New York Times had Joe Sullivan. If things moved in Trenton, they were covered. I think this Ledger played an important role in preventing corruption.

Alison Stewart: Bob, thank you so much for calling. By the way, Bob was a New Jersey correspondent for the Ledgers. Let's Talk to Gabriel online 9. Hi, Gabriel.

Gabriel: How are you? A longtime NYC listener back to [unintelligible 00:18:35] Fitzgerald, a pleasure.

Alison Stewart: So good to hear from you. Go ahead. You're on the air.

Gabriel: I was at the Ledger for 25 years, about the same time that I've lived in my house. When I moved to this block, there were newspapers in every driveway in the morning. Now my paper is the last one. I knew this day was coming. Years ago, my family gave me a T-shirt, the a la Charlton Heston and his long gun, and it had a caricature holding a newspaper, and it said, from my cold dead hand. I don't know how to start the day without the paper and a cup of coffee or more than one cup of coffee. I spend more than enough time online because I also teach, but I am going to miss that paper. I will still get the Times.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much, Gabriel, for calling. Did you have a response to either of those, Nancy?

Nancy Solomon: Yes, as someone who has converted over to reading the news on my phone, I do feel a loss of not having the paper. I'm trying to figure out, what is the tangible thing? I think partly what happens is that you don't really see the whole paper when you read it as a scroll. I just feel that I miss things that I didn't miss when I flipped through the pages. That would be one of them. I saw someone post online sometime in the last week questioning what kind of impact this was going to have on older people, maybe who aren't as facile with online reading.

I think that would have been true a few years ago. My parents, may they rest in peace, never were part of the digital revolution, never used a computer a day in their lives. Say my mother-in-law, who's in her mid-80s, is really quite competent at this digital life. The generation that was not really ready to transfer from the newspaper to the online website, we are losing many of them at a rapid clip, so I'm not sure to what extent it's going to affect those folks.

I'll throw out an example of a great series The Star Ledger did that I really appreciated. It was about the utter collapse of the state medical examiner's office and that nobody could get a good forensic analysis of a body for years out of that department. It really caused a lot of problems with a lot of criminal investigations and caused families a lot of heartache. That was a great series that basically got some needed reforms. Many, many stories in The Star Ledger have had that kind of impact.

I'll say one more thing. One of the reporters mentioned just the great coverage of the State House. I think, in my personal opinion, State House reporting is the biggest problem that we are losing in this massive turnback away from local journalism. National news coverage seems pretty strong, and local news coverage is in free fall, but it's local coverage of your town. I feel like State House news coverage is in free fall, but it is of such critical importance, the kinds of decisions and the kinds of power that occur in Trenton. To me that is the most critical loss that we're facing is not having as many State House reporters. The New Jersey State House had like 35 full-time reporters in 2003. Now I don't have an actual count, but I'm going to say it's somewhere in single digits between 5 and 10.

Alison Stewart: Wow, that's a real loss. Hey, Nancy, I want to bring in somebody. We have Micah Rasmussen on the line. He's a director of the Rebovich Institute for New Jersey Politics at Rider University. He's previously worked as a local Jersey politics, as a legislative press staffer, and as press secretary for Governor McGreevey, among other positions. Hi, Micah, thanks for making the time.

Micah Rasmussen: Thanks for having me.

Alison Stewart: What role does Star Ledger play in the daily political machinations in Trenton?

Micah Rasmussen: Well, as you were hearing from Nancy and so many others, the Ledger at its peak had over a dozen reporters reporting from the State House. There was somebody who was dedicated full time to the budget, Dusty McNichol. That is a document that just has so much detail in it. There is no possible way for the public to digest it, but he did. That meant that his readers knew what was in that budget every year. Now, it's routine for us to find things months after the fact. What was in the budget? Things that snuck by in legislation that was passed. Those things didn't happen when you had somebody covering every department. It was literally a beat for the budget. There was a beat for every department. It was wild.

Nancy's right. We used to say that it was the largest State House press corps in the entire nation, bigger even than Sacramento. I know because I used to copy in the old days the photocopies, the press releases. You had to make 55 photocopies so that you could put one in every basket on press row. It didn't happen unless it was reported in the Ledger first. The Ledger always got it ahead of everybody else. Then everybody wrote off of the Ledger. That was just the deal. That was the way it went. Appointed article a series was enough to get legislation introduced, policies changed.

I'll give you one example, one more recent example of the kind of impact that they had. I think we probably all can remember why Governor Christie left office with such a low approval rating. It was that incident where he went on the beaches when nobody else could go on the beaches. You remember that? What you might not remember is that the Ledger got wind that he was there, hired a helicopter, went out, and took the photos of him on the beach. That's how New Jersey knew what was going on. Nobody knew it until the Ledger report it.

Alison Stewart: You've told a story about the first time, as a young press staffer, you landed your boss on the front page. What was it for and what did it mean at the time?

Micah Rasmussen: This was the days when school buses-- this is a law to get fold-out arms in front of the school buses. This was Joe Roberts, assembly majority leader, went on to be speaker. The photo was of him holding up one of these long wire arms. He looked like he was holding a harpoon. As a young press staffer, I had arrived because I got my boss on the front page of the paper. For years, we had a framed copy of that. Whenever Joe Roberts would come in, he'd look very silly, very sheepish about it. This meant that you knew what you were doing if you could get your boss on the front page of the Ledger.

Alison Stewart: You were press secretary for Governor Jim McGreevey during a turbulent time, which led him to resign, in 2004. The Star Ledger won a Pulitzer Prize for the reporting of the story. What stands out most in terms of how you handled your relationship with The Star Ledger as a press secretary during a difficult time?

Micah Rasmussen: Oh, it was unbelievably tense. People who I had worked with for years, every day it was tense. They wanted to get the story. They were dogged. I remember one time, Chris Christie was the US attorney at the time. We're talking about him a lot today. Ledger was going to report something about him investigating McGreevey. I don't remember exactly what the story was, but we had reached out to Christie at a very high level. He agreed to tell the reporter on background that McGreevey wasn't part of this investigation.

I suggested to the reporter, you should give Christie a call. The reporter responded, why are you assuming we haven't already talked to him? That is as close as I've ever gotten to a reporter revealing his source. It also told us instantly that Christie was playing both sides, that he was telling us one thing and the Ledger another, but he was getting that story out there, and the Ledger got the story.

Alison Stewart: Nancy, is there any hope for the future of a healthy and robust local reporting in New Jersey? Take yourself out of the equation.

Nancy Solomon: There are some bright spots currently that should get mentioned. There's NJ Monitor, NJ Spotlight, Politico has a New Jersey operation that's very good. Politico and NJ Monitor have excellent daily newsletters that go out every morning, arrive in your inbox, and are full of the top stories of the day that you can click on the links and go read. I think that's as good as I can come up with as far as what's good that's going on.

The question is, nobody has figured out what the new economic model is. I'm not the first person, obviously, to say this, but we're struggling with it in public radio, and all the local newspapers are struggling with it. Is, like, sure, you can have a website and hire reporters and put stories online, but how do you pay for it? The advertising of online news is not working. It's not enough. Reporting is very expensive. Good reporting is very expensive. It's time-consuming and it takes skilled labor. You have a few outfits that seem to have a stable source of funding, like ProPublica, that's funding investigative journalism and that's a nonprofit, by the way.

The problem is what we've seen is a complete dropout of the for-profit news model. The nonprofit news model hasn't fully taken hold. We had a pretty good economic model in public radio with our listeners calling in during pledge drives and supporting us. We still do, but even that is suffering some setbacks. We thought podcasting was going to be the future of our industry. Nobody's figured out how to make money in podcasting pretty much. Somewhat, but not enough.

These are the issues. It comes at a time when people are flooded with disinformation, with conspiracy theories and all kinds of bad information on the internet and certainly on social media. At a time when journalism is struggling and we have this rise of disinformation and attacks, really, disinformation attacks from external enemies. It's a very scary time.

Alison Stewart: My guests have been Nancy Solomon, WNYC senior politics reporter covering New Jersey. Thanks to Micah Rasmussen for joining us in. He's director of the Rebovich Center Institute for New Jersey Politics at Rider University. Thanks a lot, you guys.

Nancy Solomon: Thanks for having me.

Micah Rasmussen: Thank you.