Alison Stewart: You're listening to All of It on WNYC, I'm Alison Stewart. To continue our week celebrating the best foods in New York City, we're going to be discussing the best burgers. Whether you like a fully loaded cheeseburger or simple lettuce and tomato, whether you like them smashed or served on brioche, the food that started in Hamburg, Germany, was one of the things that immigrants brought to the States. We're joined today by Eater alum Robert Seitsema. Hi, Robert.

Robert Seitsema: Hey, Alison.

Alison Stewart: A current Eater writer, Melissa McCart. Hi, Melissa.

Melissa McCart: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Alison Stewart: Thanks so much. They're going to help us decide where to grab a great burger. First of all, Robert, when someone comes to you and says, "Where should I go to get a good burger?" what questions do you ask them?

Robert Seitsema: Well, number one, unfortunately, is "How much do you want to pay?" because burgers have turned into luxury products in the hands of some celebrity chefs. I usually steer them towards some of the cheaper burgers in town that are also wonderful, like Joe Jr., a coffee shop around Stuyvesant Town that makes their burgers from scratch and hand-pats the freshly ground beef before they make your burger, so everything is so fresh.

Alison Stewart: I was asking. Joe Jr's is at 167 Third Avenue. I've been there.

Robert Seitsema: Oh, great.

Alison Stewart: It has like an old diner attitude to it. Can you describe the inside a little bit?

Robert Seitsema: The inside is a wreck. As I remember, it's like fading yellow and the Formica is chipped and there's twirling stools at the counter. It really is a wreck. There used to be another one on 6th Avenue, long gone, but that one is still there and it's a miracle because where else? In what other diner do they ask you how you want your burger done and mean it? You can trust them. You're not going to get like some stinky old thing pulled out of the freezer.

Alison Stewart: That is Joe Jr.'s. Melissa, when I ask you, "Where should I go to get a good burger?" what questions do you have for me?

Melissa McCart: Are we talking about lunch or dinner?

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's a good question. I don't know. Lunch. We'll say lunch.

Melissa McCart: Okay. Then are you looking for something fast or do you want to sit down and maybe have a beer with it?

Alison Stewart: See, she's answering the right questions.

Robert Seitsema: Beer at lunch? I don't know, Melissa.

Melissa McCart: I know. Don't tell anyone. [laughter]

Alison Stewart: That is really funny. Those are the kind of questions you would ask somebody.

Melissa McCart: They are. I feel like there's even another question to consider, and that's time of year because like this time of year I would lean towards a Smashburger or something more in the Joe Jr or Shake Shack-style burger.

Robert Seitsema: A lighter burger.

Melissa McCart: Yes, a lighter burger, exactly. Then as it turns to fall, I would look at tavern burgers like a Hawksmoor lunchtime burger or like a Raul's brunch burger or something like that that's a little bit more hefty and has more stuff on top.

Robert Seitsema: Or even a Minetta Tavern burger if you have very deep pockets.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Melissa McCart: Exactly. That's exactly it.

Alison Stewart: Melissa, you also mentioned a place where you can get a burger for a reasonable price. It's Jubilee Marketplace, 145 West Street in Brooklyn. It's $2.75. Is that real?

Melissa McCart: That's real. It is a grocery store that has gotten a lot of pressure press lately because the owner, Young Kim, has basically put something on his Instagram saying, "I hear you, that our prices are higher than surrounding markets. We're going to lower the prices of our produce and our grocery store items. In the meantime, you can peel off to the butcher area and get a burger for $2.75." Now, it's like a snack burger, but regardless, who wouldn't want a burger on the fly when they're grocery shopping?

Robert Seitsema: Wait, is it a slider?

Melissa McCart: They're not calling it a slider, but I think you and I would call it a slider.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to George from Brooklyn. Hey, George, thanks for taking the time to call All of It.

George: Hi, Alison, how are you?

Alison Stewart: I'm doing well.

George: Good. Bonnie's Grill in Park Slope, a nice char-broiled burger. To answer some of the questions of your guests, definitely have a beer with it, possibly some wings. I thought about because then you mentioned the tavern burger. Then there's Molly's on Third Avenue in Manhattan, 22nd street, maybe, but that's what I have to offer.

Alison Stewart: You know a lot about burgers, George. Thank you for calling in, listeners. We want to hear your thoughts. Are you a burger fanatic? What's your favorite place to get a burger in this city? We want cheap recommendations. We want expensive recommendations. Our phone lines are open. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. I'm speaking with food writers, Robert Seitsema and Melissa McCart. We are talking burgers in the city. Robert, next on your list, you have Blue Collar Burger. It's an under-the-radar Brooklyn chain, that's your description.

Robert Seitsema: Yes, it is. It has the most normal California-style burger imaginable. It hasn't been smashed. Smashburgers are usually covered with salt to make the crust on it crackle. What this is is just a nice, good, soft burger at a reasonable price. It has lettuce, tomato. The tomato is actually ripe, the lettuce is fresh, and it's just. It's a great burger. There's I think three or four of those places in various parts of Brooklyn.

Alison Stewart: Now, I don't know if this is a bad word or not. Is it fast food?

Robert Seitsema: It's not quite fast food. It would be if they were already grilling them when you came in and ordered it, but they tend to cook them from scratch. I would wait a good five or ten minutes, at least, for your burger. Our High Life is another place in Manhattan, which just opened. It's on First Avenue. It is absolutely fantastic and has a similar California-style In-N-Out burger.

Alison Stewart: All right, Melissa. Hamburger America, right near here. 155 W. Houston St. What makes this special?

Melissa McCart: It's so great.

Alison Stewart: It's so great. All right, it's so great.

Robert Seitsema: I agree.

Alison Stewart: All right, he agrees. Oh, my God. Okay, we have a consensus. Melissa?

Melissa McCart: It's like a hamburger museum almost. George Motts, the owner, has written a book on burgers. He had a burger slide out of his window during the pandemic. He's just really associated with burgers in New York.

Robert Seitsema: He's a nut, let's be frank.

Melissa McCart: Yes, he is.

Robert Seitsema: He has a smasher with his name engraved on it and he's often there making the actual burgers before an audience.

Melissa McCart: It's so great, but here's what you have to know about Hamburger America. You can wait in line and get a seat at the Formica counter where you could see him flipping burgers, or you go through a different door and you walk up and you can order. Then you're sitting off to the left in these, like, squished seatings that's more of a fast food situation. That is definitely faster, but it lacks some of the charm of sitting at the counter. It's definitely worth waiting to get a seat at the counter.

Robert Seitsema: He's a burger historian, so one of the things he does is he tries to recreate burgers from different famous burger places.

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's cool.

Robert Seitsema: By default, they're smash burgers. Although, I would never insult them by calling them smash burgers.

Alison Stewart: Why would it be insulting to call someone a smash burger?

Robert Seitsema: I hate smash burgers.

[laughter]

Robert Seitsema: It's a way of selling you less meat for more money. People that get smash burgers, they tend to double up or triple the patties, so they end up with the same amount of meat in a regular burger. The trick of smash burgers is at all of these new chains, they put like a ton of salt on them so that, by osmosis, it turns into this, like, crust, like an eggshell.It's not a pleasant burger to eat.

Alison Stewart: Melissa, do you agree?

Robert Seitsema: [laughs]

Melissa McCart: I totally agree. I think smash burgers have reached peak maybe last year. Now we're moving into people gravitating towards different kinds of burgers. I tend to like tavern burgers or really anything besides smash burgers. [laughs] Robert had actually told me a secret for finding a really great burger is to order the burger at a hot dog stand, if there is one. We recently were trying out hot dogs around New Jersey, and he kept ordering the burger and the burgers either were on par, or often could outshine the hot dog.

Robert Seitsema: Too true, but keep it a secret.

Alison Stewart: All right, we'll keep that one a secret. We'll talk to Agnes from Westchester, who had a really good burger and a really bad one. Okay, Agnes, tell us what happened.

Agnes: Hi. Okay, so I had some friends in from out of town, and we were on the Upper East Side. They wanted to have a burger. We were going to go to some place in the 70s on Second Avenue, but I forgot what it was called. We ended up not going because they really want to go to the Mark Hotel. They said the burgers were good at the Mark. I don't know. We went and it was horrible. It was ridiculously expensive. It was like maybe $30, maybe more, maybe $40.

I like my burgers medium rare, juicy, and it was just not. It was just bad. I was really upset. Anyway, we ate it. Then we were downtown and Tribeca and we went to this a sandwich- salad place. It's called Benvenuto, and it was a really good burger. It was nice and it was juicy. They made it the way I wanted to make it, caramelized onions and everything. I was really upset with the Mark Hotel because I [chuckles] really wanted to love the burger.

Alison Stewart: Agnes, thank you so much. It brings me my question for both of you. What is a very expensive burger that is worth it? What do you think, Robert?

Robert Seitsema: I would say that the Mineta Tavern burger has kept up at a ridiculous price. It's like $38. Go for the more expensive one. There's a cheapskate one at $32, but go for the $38 one. Here's the hack, share it with somebody. It is so big that you probably shouldn't be eating the whole thing yourself. It's cooked. It's only for people that love extensively caramelized onions because that's the trick of the Black label burger, is having this massive perfectly and long, long, long caramelized onions. It's a little on the sweet side. The burger is just fantastic. It's what you pay for is for the burger to be cooked the way you like it and if they don't do it, like send it back.

Alison Stewart: How about you, Melissa? What is one of the high-end burgers that you think, "Yes, that's worth it?"

Melissa McCart: Raul's. Here's the thing. For dinner, they only sell one burger per barstool. That's 12 burgers a night, and you have to get there right away. I would not be recommending it if that is the only time you could get the burger. You can get it. It's on the menu for Saturday and Sunday brunch. It's $32. It is a brisket burger. It's made like steak au poivre. It has St. Andre cheese, pickles, and duck fat fries, and it's $32, very delicious, and yes, something that I would split with somebody else.

Alison Stewart: By the way, if you want to know why they make the burger, you should listen to my interview with the folks from Raul's about the documentary about the film about the place, the space.

Melissa McCart: It was so good. The documentary was great.

Alison Stewart: Really good. Let's talk to Ann. I've been curious about this place, too, Anne. Anne is calling in from Manhattan. Hi, Anne.

Anne: Hi there. Yes, Smacking Burger at the Mobil station on 8th Avenue and 13th Street in the West Village, what a deal, delicious, the caramelized onions Don't go for that Minetta Tavern burger. Go for the Smacking Burger.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Anne: It's quick. It's fast.

Robert Seitsema: Smacking Burger is fine.

Anne: It's cheap. It's just the right size. I always say to myself, "Oh, thank God this thing is an enormous." It's just a normal-sized burger. I think it's like $6.95 and it's delicious every time and you can get fries.

Robert Seitsema: Of course, the fries are separate.

Anne: Literally, the fries are separate, absolutely. It's inside the gas station. There's tables. People gather at tables outdoors. I highly recommend it. Now I'm sad to give away my secret.

Robert Seitsema: Right, and there's nothing like the smell of gasoline in your nostrils as you eat your burger. No, I agree. They're great.

Alison Stewart: Let's head to Red Hook Tavern. We talked about tavern burgers quite a bit. You say they have one of the best.

Melissa McCart: They do. It's very straightforward. I like their fat fries. Red Hook Tavern, if you can get a seat, feels like such a classic tavern and it's a better burger than it needs to be in terms of seasoning and ratio of stuff, to beef to bun. I feel like it's a place where you walk away satisfied every time. Robert, what's your thought about Red Hook Tavern?

Robert Seitsema: I absolutely love it. It's descended from a chain of barbecues. They really know their meat there. It is beyond wonderful in all aspects, save for one, and that is the $28.60 price tag, which is a little expensive for a tavern burger. For a great tavern burger, go to JG Mellon, where it's still $9.85 on the Upper East Side.

Alison Stewart: Let's slide in one more caller. Happy in Manhattan. You have 30 seconds.

Happy: Well, I still miss the 21 burger as an experience, but Pete's Tavern does three different burgers on their lunch menu, one of which is a half-pound. Iif you get it done right, you can get it crispy on the outside and rare in the middle, which is the ideal combination for me.

Alison Stewart: Sounds good. We've got just about a minute left. I'm going to give each of you a chance to give a shout-out to something that we haven't mentioned. What do you say, Melissa?

Melissa McCart: Long Island bars burgers are quite good, too, and they make fantastic cocktails. That's the last one that I would suggest.

Alison Stewart: How about you?

Robert Seitsema: I would recommend the vegan burger at Superiority Burger in the East Village, where they make the patty. Not buy it at the discount store. They make it out of black beans. It is absolutely delicious and you won't mind that you're not eating meat.

Alison Stewart: That is the end of burger chat here at All of It. My guests have been Eater writer Melissa McCart, Eater alum Robert Sitsama. Thanks to all of our listeners for calling, and thanks to you for being our guests.

Robert Seitsema: Thank you so much, Alison. This was so much fun.

Melissa McCart: Thank you for having us.

Alison Stewart: That is All of It for today. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening, and I appreciate you. I'm going to leave you with Kate Hines. She'll be in the chair tomorrow.