Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. According to the World Instant Noodle Association, over 123 billion servings of instant noodles were consumed globally in 2024. Yes, the Association was started in 1997, and run by the chairman of the company that created Top Ramen and [unintelligible 00:00:29] Cup of Noodles. Instant ramen is more than for the stereotypical broke college students. For many people, it's a staple pantry item. Instant ramen can sustain a family on a busy weeknight, feed your kids quickly and cheaply, and can be transformed into a layered and flavorful meal with a little creativity. Peter J. Kim is the founding director of the Museum of Food and Drink, and an instant ramen enthusiast. He's written a new cookbook called Instant Ramen Kitchen: 40+ Delicious Recipes That Go Beyond the Packet. He answers questions like to jiggle, or not to jiggle, and when is the right time to drain? Peter is here now to give us advice on ramen at home. Hi, Peter.

Peter Kim: Hi, Alison. It's such a pleasure and joy to be on.

Alison Stewart: Tell me the history of ramen. It starts with Momofuko Ando. Tell us who he is, and how he's related to ramen?

Peter Kim: That's right. It all happened in the aftermath of World War II, and Japan was in a pretty impoverished state at the time, and so there was a lot of hunger, unfortunately at the time. At the same time, the US was providing a lot of food aid in the form of wheat, and so these two factors really came together to create the circumstances for it. Momofuku Ando was an inventor in Osaka.

As the story goes, he saw a long line of people waiting for ramen in an outdoor stall in Osaka, and it got him thinking, "Well, is there something I could create that would be able to help address this problem of hunger, while also using the wheat that comes in?" He set about tinkering with ideas, and really his big innovation was you take ramen noodles and you cook them, and then you fry them, and that actually dries them out, so they're self-stable, but then it creates the porous structure in the noodles, which means that they hydrate quickly, and you just need to add hot water, and they're ready to go.

Alison Stewart: When did that era of ramen noodles become an American staple? When did it really infiltrate the American culinary scene?

Peter Kim: Yes. I'm not actually sure at what point it really took off in the US. I know even within Japan, it took a while, because at first it was actually pretty expensive-

Alison Stewart: Oh.

Peter Kim: -but then, as it scaled up, it obviously became quite ubiquitous, and so I'm not quite sure when it really picked up in the US, but certainly by now, within that fact you just cited, I think we're at over five billion packets per year in the US that we're eating in the US alone, so there's a lot of instant ramen going around.

Alison Stewart: What was your first instant ramen experience?

Peter Kim: Oh, yes, so I grew up in the Midwest in a small town, and I actually still have this very clear memory of being in the kitchen, and my mom proposing having this thing called-- In Korean we call it ramyeon, and she fired up a packet of Sapporo Ichiban original flavor, and brought it over to me. I think she had added an egg, and set the bowl in front of me, and I had never seen anything like it, and the aroma alone, and just the headiness of the broth really stuck with me, and then when I ate it, it really kicked off a lifelong obsession.

Alison Stewart: What were you hoping to accomplish with this book? Which we'll get into in a little bit, but it's recipes, but it's more than that.

Peter Kim: Yes. To be honest, if I had-- If I was going to do a subtitle that really got to the essence of the book, it would be that this is a book about how to improvise, a manual on improvisation. It just so happens that, what I'm doing, is I'm using instant ramen as a framework for it, but the biggest thing I want people to get out of this, is to discover their ability to flow, and be creative in the kitchen, and just let their ideas run free, and not be so worried about whether it's going to work.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Peter Kim, founding director of the Museum of Food and Drink. He's the author of the new cookbook Instant Ramen Kitchen. We want to hear from you as well. How do you like to eat instant ramen at home? Do you keep it simple, or do you have ingredients or methods that you like to make your bowl with? Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. How often did you eat instant ramen growing up? Why do you think it's so universally popular? Give us a call. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Now, you reject the idea that instant ramen is for a college student, and that's it?

Peter Kim: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Why do you reject that?

Peter Kim: Yes, it's true. A lot of college students do eat instant ramen, so it's not that that's untrue. It's just that whenever you look at a news article, or a feature on instant ramen, inevitably, it is framed as the popular dorm favorite, and to me, when you're only looking at it that way, it's pretty myopic, because for a lot of people, a lot of cultures, it is, as you said, it's a pantry staple.

I grew up in a Korean American household, and my parents are not starving [chuckles] college students. They love to eat instant ramen, and it's something that, as a family, we really enjoy eating regularly. I was just traveling in India, and in Madagascar. In both of those places, in India, it's Maggi Noodles. In Madagascar, they have their own brands, but everywhere you go, you see packets of instant noodles, and it's much more a foundation of how people eat, or part of the food culture, really, than something that's relegated to only starving college students.

Alison Stewart: When you get the basic instant ramen, you get a little flavor packet. What's in the flavor packet?

Peter Kim: Inside the flavor packet, you have seasoning, so in the form of salt, and then you also have a lot of umami boosting ingredients in there, and then you have aromatics, things like garlic powder, and then sometimes chili powder and whatnot, and really what that seasoning packet does, is it ensures a baseline level of deliciousness and seasoning. I think that's one of the things that home cooks can sometimes struggle with, is you're cooking, and at the end of the day, you don't really know how to balance out the seasoning, and with instant ramen, just put the sachet in, or if you're sensitive to sodium, you can put less of it in, but I think it's worth just trying it with just the whole thing, and then let your creativity flow, and that seasoning sachet is going to pretty much accept any ingredient into its warm embrace, and make it work.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. This is Mark calling in from New Rochelle. Hi, Mark. Thanks for taking the time to call All Of It. You are on the air.

Mark: Oh, hi. Can you hear me?

Alison Stewart: Yes, I can hear you. Go for it.

Mark: Okay, great. Just making sure. Well, I just was concerned. I'm diabetic, and I'm also-- I've got high blood pressure, and is there anything in ramen that is lower sodium and lower carbs?

Alison Stewart: We hear that a lot. You hear a lot about the sodium in ramen?

Peter Kim: Yes, that's right, so I think if that's something that's a concern for you, certainly putting less of the seasoning sachet in, that is one option. Then, you also have certain brands out there where the noodles aren't fried, and they're air dried. I happen to like the fried ones, because I like the flavor and the texture that it brings, but there are ones where you're going to possibly find a nutritive profile that more matches what you're looking for.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Maria from Morris Plains, New Jersey. Hi, Maria, thanks for calling, All Of It. You are on the air.

Maria: Hi, guys. I just wanted to mention really quickly that, first, I love your show, but regarding ramen noodles, my parents are from Ecuador, South America, and my mom started suffering with gastritis. She travels all over the world. She always packs at least five ramen noodles to-go in her suitcase, in case she can't find anything to eat, and I got to tell you, I mean, besides having a love obsession with ramen noodles, it is amazing. I love ramen noodles, and so does my family.

Alison Stewart: Thanks for calling in, so, Peter, you have a whole section in your book Instant Ramen Kitchen with what you call concepts rather than recipes.

Peter Kim: That's right.

Alison Stewart: Why is that an important distinction to you? Concepts versus recipes?

Peter Kim: Yes, really, in certain ways, this is not a very traditional cookbook, where it's just listing off ideas one after another, or recipes. What I aim to do with the concepts was to give the reader the full range, or a wide range of possibilities of things you can do with instant ramen that you don't need to just make, say, a traditional Japanese style ramen dish, or an Asian noodle soup.

That you can make things like shakshuka, you can make borscht, you can make aglio e olio, you can make Mac and cheese, you can do baked dishes, you can make kuskus, and really, it's such a versatile staple to use in your cooking that, for me, that's really what I was trying to do with that, is I intentionally went as wide ranging as possible, and then with each of the concepts-- I mean, it is-- It does take the form of a recipe, but then I have all these ideas for how to modify it and tweak it, and make it your own.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Peter Kim. We're talking about his new cookbook, Instant Ramen Kitchen. We'd like to hear from you. How do you like to eat instant ramen at home? Do you keep it simple, or are there ingredients and methods you like to use? How often did you eat instant ramen growing up? Why do you think it's so universally popular? Our phone number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We'll have more after a quick break. This is All Of It.

[music]

You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest in studio is Peter Kim. He's founding director of the Museum of Food and Drink, and he's also the author of a new cookbook, Instant Ramen Kitchen. We are taking your calls and your texts. This one says, "When I was in college, a Korean American friend used to get amazing care packages from her parents, who owned an Asian grocery store, and she taught me to eat ramen 'raw' and it's pre-fried. It's like eating chips. Delicious." All right, so people understand. First of all, there's Japanese ramen, and there's Korean ramen. Can you explain the difference so well?

Peter Kim: First of all, I'll say, that's always an awakening moment for a lot of Korean Americans when you realize you can just eat the noodle out of the packet, but, yes, traditional ramen is made with alkaline noodles that stay springy and chew even in soup, and then you have a soup base that's made with something called tare, which is a concentrated liquid with a broth, and then you have toppings.

Instant ramen is very much inspired by traditional ramen, but it's obviously simplified, and tweaked in certain ways. You still have these alkaline noodles, but as I said, they've been either air dried or fried to make them cook more quickly, and then you have the-- The soup is, now comes from the seasoning packet, and so there is a relationship, but I would say they're two very different things.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about cooking time. It says in the packet two minutes, but the noodles can turn mushy really fast. What's important to know about noodle cook time when you're making instant ramen?

Peter Kim: Yes, so I actually advise people to not necessarily follow the cook time directions on the package. Your standard one for like the common ones you'll find like Top Ramen, and Maruchan will advise a three-minute cook time. For me, that results in noodles that are, for my taste, too soft, but if you like it that way, great, but if you do like a more, let's say al dente bite to it, then you want to land actually at more of a 2 minute 30 second cook time, but however, the other thing to remember is that, when you cook instant ramen, the noodles continue to soften even after you turn off the heat, so that's why I recommend going to a two-minute cook time, and then land at the 2 minute 30 second that I really like.

Alison Stewart: This text says, "I like to mix my ramen seasoning powder with an egg yolk, carefully mix in warm water without scrambling the yolk, then stir that mix into the remaining water to have a nice, thick sauce with my noodles." This one says, "I always add frozen veggies and a protein, making it a complete meal."

Peter Kim: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Claire from Brooklyn. Hi, Claire, thanks for taking the time to call All Of It. You are on the air talking ramen.

Claire: Hi. I just turned the radio on, and I was thinking about the dish that I was going to make, which is really quick and wonderful, and I was Inspired by my 93-year-old mother who I visited last year, and she was making lunches with ramen, and mixing up-- Sauteing vegetables and some ground beef, and then she dropped the noodles on top, and it was delicious.

I do a dish with some onion, cilantro, tomato paste, tuna, garlic, and a Somali spice called xawaash, and then I put the noodles on top, and I've been using some rice ramen noodles, which I like a lot, and like you said, they cook real fast, and it is delicious. Favorite dish.

Alison Stewart: That was a great recipe. Thanks so much for calling in.

Peter Kim: Yes, that sounds great. You're hitting a lot of great flavor bases with that.

Alison Stewart: You talk about the phases of making ramen. Prep, pre-simmer, simmer, and finish.

Peter Kim: Yes.

Alison Stewart: The pre-simmer phase happens before the broth boils. Why is this so important?

Peter Kim: The pre-simmer phase is where you can reach high temperatures, because once you've added any liquid, you're maxing out at 212 degrees Fahrenheit, and at that point you can't get any browning reactions, and so as part of the method, I recommend that people consider either searing, or sauteing ingredients at the pre-simmer phase, which allows you to get that those brown flavors that you associate with, say, seared steak, or with toasted bread. These are just really more complex flavors that will really make your final dish a lot more delicious.

Alison Stewart: Couple more texts coming in. "I love ramen. It's my go to whenever I don't feel well. When we make the soup, we generally add some combination of onions, peas, edamame, egg and chili oil." This text says, "My mom would make amazing ramen noodle dishes in the '90s with the regular ramen noodles from the packets. We are a South Asian American household. She would also get glass noodles that were the same shape and size as ramen noodles, and it was amazing. My husband, who is white, makes ramen for our family with Better bon Bouillon, chicken stock, miso paste, veggies with a brown rice and millet noodles that we get at Costco, and he adds a soft boiled egg to each bowl. It's the best meal ever."

Peter Kim: [laughs] Yes. Yes, you're getting all that umami from the Better than Bouillon. It's really a similar principle, and by the way, my stomach just growled, so that's a good sign.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Is the egg traditional?

Peter Kim: Yes, so typically with traditional ramen, you'll often see what's called the ajitsuke tamago, which is these jammy egg, and with instant ramen you could do that. Though that takes advanced preparation. What's easier is, you can poach the egg with the noodles, and it so happens that the egg will poach at roughly the same amount of time as it takes for the noodles to cook, so just drop it in at the same time.

Alison Stewart: Oh, wow.

Peter Kim: Or you can beat the egg, and twirl it in, or if you really are pressed for time, just crack the egg right into the soup, and give it a twirl, and it'll cook very quickly.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Peter Kim. He's the founding director of the Museum of Food and Drink. He's the author of the new cookbook Instant Ramen Kitchen. We want to hear from you. How do you like to eat ramen at home? Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. This text says, "My dad, a Mexican American, Southern California guy, did add eggs like you already mentioned, but also bok choy, and both are so simple, yet so delicious."

Peter Kim: Yes. Adding those vegetable notes are key because, again, I think of instant ramen, it's the canvas. You could eat it on its own, but I agree, it's not a very rounded meal on its own, but, yes, adding in vegetables, proteins, it's really going to round it out.

Alison Stewart: We think of ramen as having a broth-like base, but you have a book that dedicated, you call it the dry and saucy ramen without a soup base.

Peter Kim: [laughs] Yes.

Alison Stewart: How does ramen work in this format?

Peter Kim: Yes, so if you adjust the amount of cooking liquid you use, if you go to, say, three-quarters of a cup of cooking liquid, then by the time the noodles are cooked, everything's going to reduce down to a sauce, and so I have a number of recipes in there, where it's not-- You don't need to make a separate sauce, noodles can cook into it, but it's going to reduce down, and there you can make things like a marinara sauce with instant ramen, which by the way, very delicious, because that seasoning packet brings these umami flavors into it, and it unlocks a lot of other possibilities for saucy dishes too, which I find to be a nice contrast with the soupy ones.

Alison Stewart: What is your favorite dry and saucy dish?

Peter Kim: Ooh, you know what? I have to say, the Mac and cheese recipe I have in there, only requires three ingredients. Evaporated milk, cheddar cheese, and then the instant ramen packet, and it just works beautifully, because the evaporated milk is concentrated enough that it replaces the béchamel that you'd normally use to make a full on Mac and cheese, and it takes maybe max seven or eight minutes to make, and you have this incredibly delicious creamy bowl of Mac and cheese just appearing before your eyes.

Alison Stewart: If I go to the store, if I go to H Mart, and I just see so many different varieties. What's a good way to pick what you want to eat?

Peter Kim: Well, I think that it's good to start with some of the universally loved brands, and so Shin Ramyun is the gold standard for the Korean spicy style. Then, you have other ones like Neoguri and Jin Ramen that are good places to start, but after that, really just taste your way around. That's part of the fun of it is just take a whole party mix of different flavors, and try them out. There's so many varieties of instant ramen out there.

Alison Stewart: I always see scallion on top of ramen. What are other toppings that we may not think of that might be really good?

Peter Kim: Yes, one thing I advise people to do, is to think about covering different flavor bases, so certainly, you want to have that fresh note to it, and the scallion helps with that, and so herbs also work well for that. Sometimes you want to add an acidic element, so I think pickles are great, kimchi or any kind of pickle, sauerkraut, or a splash of vinegar, or a squeeze of lemon, and then I think anything with protein is great, so if you have leftover rotisserie chicken, tofu, or even a can of beans that needs to be used, just drop that in.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Dina, who is calling in from the East Village. Hey, Dina, thanks for calling, All Of It.

Dina: Oh, my pleasure. Hey, I love ramen. I've been eating it. It was my staple through college, and I passed it down to my daughter who's a freshman in college, and it's great. Well, when I have a hangover, I make it super spicy.

Peter Kim: [chuckles] Oh, yes.

Dina: Lots of red pepper. Oh, wow. It's the only thing I crave. I don't get hangovers too often, but when I do, this is my go to. I drop an egg, scramble it up, roast garlic, then I put that in, and also soft boiled egg, and I cut that in half. Spinach or kale, broccoli, whatever's in my refrigerator, and then, yes, someone mentioned the chili oil earlier. That's my favorite in there.

Alison Stewart: Thanks for calling in. Yes, people have mentioned cheese a lot, but you have a bacon egg cheese recipe in this book.

Peter Kim: That's right. It's an homage.

Alison Stewart: The bodega classic?

Peter Kim: Yes. I mean, to me that's like quintessential New York City, and it turns out that, again, with reducing the liquid level, but you start with bacon in a dry pan, so you get those brown flavors, and you render out the fat, and then you scramble the egg in there. Then, you cook your noodles with just a little bit of liquid, and it all reduces down to this really beautiful, bacon eggy sauce around the noodles. Top it with American cheese, and then if you want to do it the classic way, drizzle of ketchup, salt, pepper, and then you got yourself a BEC noodle dish.

Alison Stewart: We've been talking about ramen in terms of Korean ramen and Japanese ramen, but there's an East Asian ramen.

Peter Kim: Yes. Well, I mean, ramen of course is-- Well, originates from East Asia, but, yes, so I did do--

Alison Stewart: Outside of Asia, I want to say. Sorry.

Peter Kim: Oh, sorry. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: My bad. It's my mistake.

Peter Kim: Oh, yes. I mean, I have all kinds of recipes for dishes outside of there. I mean, I really intentionally covered a lot of different cultural groups, so we have Latin recipes like moqueca. I have a Frijoles de La Olla recipe which is Mexican inspired. I've got a mafe recipe, which is like a peanut stew from West Africa from my time in the Peace Corps. It's like a fond memory of mine.

Really, any dish in the world that is stewy, soupy, or noodly, or maybe even any dish really can be recreated with instant ramen, because at the end of the day, what you have in the packet is, basically, a sachet of bouillon powder, and then you have noodles, and with that, you can conjure up all kinds of flavors.

Alison Stewart: We have a question for you. This text says, "Other than mushrooms, how do you create a deeper flavor in a vegan broth for ramen?"

Peter Kim: Oh, right. Well, I think mushrooms are a great example. I think that cashew nuts, if you blend those up and add them, you're going to get a nice creaminess into the soup, and I think beans are a great example too. One thing you can do is, at the beginning, mash up some of the beans, and then when you add the liquid, that's going to thicken it up, and give you a nice heartiness to it.

Alison Stewart: Do your kids like ramen?

Peter Kim: Yes. It's like the one thing, if I mention it, they're both like, "Yay".

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Peter Kim: For them, what I do, is I blend vegetables into the soup, because my daughter is just allergic to visible vegetables, apparently. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Of course, she's got that thing that all kids have, being allergic to vegetables.

Peter Kim: Yes.

Alison Stewart: The name of the cookbook is Instant Ramen Kitchen: 40+ Delicious Recipes That Go Beyond the Packet. It is by Peter Kim, founding director of the Museum of Food and Drink. Thank you so much for being with us.

Peter Kim: Thank you.