Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC Studios in SoHo. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you're here. On today's show, actor Edward Norton and director James Mangold join us to talk about the new movie, A Complete Unknown. Staten Island's own Janine Harouni is here to talk about her new show at SoHo Playhouse. We have some live in studio, caroling from the West Village Chorale. This is becoming an annual tradition here on the show, and after you hear them, you will understand why. [music]

To get this started, let's begin with the story of two people, brought together by a desire to make it in Tinseltown. One is trying to make as much with his mark with not much luck. The other, well, she's waiting for Mr. DeMille for her close-up. I could only be talking about Sunset Boulevard.

[Sunset Boulevard track plays]

[MUSIC - Andrew Lloyd Webber: Sunset Boulevard]

I came out here to make my name

Wanted my pool, my dose of fame

Wanted my parking space at Warner's

But after a year a one room hell

A murphy bed, a rancid smell

Wallpaper peeling at the corners

Sunset Boulevard, twisting boulevard

Secretive and rich, a little scary

Sunset Boulevard, tempting boulevard

Waiting there to swallow the unwary

Alison Stewart: The revival of Sunset Boulevard is wild. Directed by visionary Jamie Lloyd, Sunset Boulevard (2024) strips down the story's Hollywood grandeur for a minimal yet affecting presentation, modern black and white clothing, little to no sets. The production uses live camera work to show the emotions of its lead, subtle but affecting. The leads are two people making their Broadway debuts, Nicole Scherzinger, as the aging and homicidal actress Norma Desmond, and my next guest, Tom Francis as Joe Gillis, a sort of meh writer who finds himself caught in Norma's web.

Tom is really making his Broadway debut. He sings the title track outside the theater, crossing the street, walking and singing straight into Shubert Alley while we all watch him in the theater, on the screens, until he reappears in person. It's six minute of thrills, but anything can happen in six minutes in New York City. Sunset Boulevard swept the Olivier Awards when it played in London, and I'm sure you will hear the name again when the Tonys are announced.

Joining us now is Tom Francis. Tom, welcome to the studio.

Tom Francis: Hello.

Alison Stewart: I want to ask you. Let's go on the way way, way, way back machine.

Tom Francis: Let's do it.

Alison Stewart: When did you first hear that Sunset Boulevard, there might be a revival?

Tom Francis: This would be about a year and a half ago. I reckon a year and a half ago. I found out through my agent. I was doing another show, and I just finished, and I decided that I was going to take some time out of theater for a bit, because I'd been doing some shows for, like, quite a while, eight shows a week. It takes its toll on your body. I want to have a bit of time to reset, and so I went away and hid in a studio and wrote music and stuff for a few months.

My agent called me and went, "There's a show, which I think we should put you in for." I was like, "What is it?" She went, "Sunset Boulevard," and I went, "Okay." She went, "Jamie Lloyd's directing," and I went, "Okay." She was like, "Andrew Lloyd Webber is attached." I was like, "Okay."

[laughter]

I was like, "This sounds cool." Then we went in, did quite a few auditions for it, and then now we're here, and I can't really believe that we're doing the show on Broadway.

Alison Stewart: I heard you had to do nine different auditions.

Tom Francis: Yes, it was quite intense over two weeks.

Alison Stewart: What did you audition? What did it consist of?

Tom Francis: The audition consisted of a lot of the material. There was about four or five songs for Joe, like some of the narration parts, Sunset Boulevard, the title track, and then the last song, which I've completely forgotten the name of, but it's in the Sunset Boulevard main, and then a few of the narration parts and a few of the scenes.

Alison Stewart: When did you start to think during those nine auditions, like, oh, I might have gotten this role?

[laughter]

Tom Francis: I reckon around about the third or fourth, because, yes, I reckon around about the third or fourth. It felt so good being in the room. I just really clicked with Jamie. I really clicked with Alan Williams, our musical supervisor, and like, Fabian Aloise, our choreographer, I'd worked with him before at drama school, and he knows that I'm not potentially the strongest dancer of all time.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: You did a pretty good, I have to say.

Tom Francis: Thank you. I move, and he knows that I'm a mover, and there was one of the auditions, he was teaching me some of the choreography. He took extra time with me, shall we say, to make sure that I did it to the best of my abilities. When people go the extra mile, I was like, well, this can only be a good thing. It turned out to be good.

Alison Stewart: Jamie Lloyd is so interesting. He did Betrayal on Broadway, Cyrano at BAM, A Doll's House, Jessica Chastain. He's a very cool sort of stylized director. What had you heard about working with Jamie Lloyd or what his process was like?

Tom Francis: I hadn't heard much about his process because I was pretty fresh out of drama school, so I didn't know enough people to sort of have an insight as to what the process of putting on one of his shows was. Yes, I'd seen some of his stuff back in London, and I just remember being like this. This man, the way he uses everything, like he truly directs a show. The way he uses, like, sound design, and the way that he uses light, and the way that he does crazy things with sets and costumes and stuff. He truly directs. I was just like, I have to work with his brain at some point. Then getting the opportunity to was just out of this world. He really does find a way to get to the essence of everything.

I think that's the really incredible thing about him, is he fully knows how to get to the heart of you as a performer, and he knows fully how to get to the heart of the show. I think stripping everything back, like we do in the show, that's how he does it, because there's no fluff. There's nothing for you to get distracted on. You've just got the words and how they're being said. When you make it that simple, it's just so effective.

Alison Stewart: What did he help you, Tom, understand about Joe Gillis, when you first had to engage with the character of Joe?

Tom Francis: I think that the words are enough. I think I came in at the beginning, and I felt like I was doing-- I came in and I was very much like, cut out that ass business.

[laughter]

I'm doing like a character. He was very much just like you need to just say the words, and that was how I got in to the character, like, literally, Don Black and Christopher Hampton and Andrew, they've written this incredible show, and it's all there. You don't have to do much. You really don't have to do much. That's what he taught me.

Alison Stewart: There's this great picture of Andrew Lloyd Webber standing next to Jamie Lloyd. Andrew Lloyd's very posh, and Jamie Lloyd looks like the coolest guy you'd meet in a pub. He's got tattoos, silenced down his face. What do you think is special or unique when he takes on a classic, because I just mentioned two classics, Cyrano, A Doll's House. I think he's doing the Tempest now with Sigourney Weaver.

Tom Francis: Yes, he is. I think it opened, like tomorrow or something.

Alison Stewart: What does he do with a classic that makes it modern?

Tom Francis: He respects it, and he throws nods to the original productions, and lets it do its thing, but then also completely and utterly shifts the focus and shifts the lens on how the story can be told.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Tom Francis. He plays Joe Gillis in Sunset Boulevard at the St. James Theatre. You spend a little time in a body bag-

Tom Francis: Yes.

Alison Stewart: -on stage. What goes through your mind as they are zipping you into the body bag?

Tom Francis: Remember all the lines.

[laughter]

I think that's normally what's going through. I don't know. I just deep breathe. I try and just sort of slow my heart rate down, and I just try and focus in, and because I don't really have any time to reset off stage, because I'm on stage for most of the show, and so, yes, I just try and get myself into as much of a Zen space as possible, which is a bit counterintuitive being in a body bag.

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Tom Francis: It's obviously not a natural place to find yourself in eight times a week. [laughs] Yes, so that's what I do, I just deep breathe.

Alison Stewart: Also, in your role, you utilize these cameras. It's a little bit like a Steadicam and you have to hold it on your lap initially, and you project it onto this huge screen. First of all, how heavy is the cam?

Tom Francis: The camera is so heavy.

Alison Stewart: It's really heavy, right?

Tom Francis: The camera is really heavy, and actually just shout out to Shayna McPherson, because I feel like you're probably-- Are you going to talk about the walk around at some point?

Alison Stewart: We will.

Tom Francis: Okay, well, I'll save it for them.

Alison Stewart: Okay.

Tom Francis: Yes, no, they are really incredibly heavy. I'm not sure how many pounds, but I think they're actually heavier than London as well. There's a lot of stuff on the rig.

Alison Stewart: How long did it take you to learn to use it well?

Tom Francis: Well, I'm lucky because I only have to use it once where I hold it.

Alison Stewart: Okay.

Tom Francis: The rest of the time, I'm getting shot with-

Alison Stewart: Other people.

Tom Francis: -other people. For me, I'm quite lucky. I'm sat down holding it, but I'm doing a car driving sequence. It's like a car chase. I learned early on that if one shoulder saw, I can just lift it up, and then it looks like I'm steering. [laughs] Then I'm kind of just doing that, so I'm switching the weight over. That's how I kind of get past that.

Alison Stewart: How do you go back and forth between performing for the house, the people in the house, to the back of the house, but then also performing for the cameras?

Tom Francis: Yes, it did take a while. We have an incredible video team, shout out to Joe Ransom and Nathan Amzi. They are sort of the brains behind how the cameras work, and with Jamie, how the shots look. It was a lot of conversations of them being like, just trust what you're doing, and maybe don't do that eyebrow--

Alison Stewart: Because it looks so huge on the big screen, right.

Tom Francis: Exactly, and it just becomes a muscle memory where, like now it feels unnatural to not be switching between this tiny performance where the camera's less than a foot away from your face or giving a performance out to 1,700 people. Now it feels quite good, but it did take a while. It took a lot of them being like, stop looking at the screen. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: I see. What did you see when you first saw how huge your face on the screen?

Tom Francis: I was like, wow, I need a skincare routine.

[laughter]

Yes, no, no. It was overwhelming. It was overwhelming. That was a moment where were all like, this show is going to be incredibly special. I remember, like, they told us not to talk to people about it, but I remember going home and talking to my mum and dad and my brother and my sister about it. I knew I could trust them. I just remember being like, so this is the kind of vibe of the show, and they were like, that is completely and utterly unheard of. It's not. It's not done in British theater. It's groundbreaking. I was like, yes, this is. It feels really special.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting because the costumes are fairly minimal. They're black and white, and for the entire cast, and sometimes when you talk to actors, like, oh, the costume gets me into the role, I'm curious, what do those costumes do for you? Which are very subtle and very one note almost.

Tom Francis: For me, it's probably more about my body language with the costume. Me and Jamie decided that I'd have my hands in my pockets for a lot of the show. That was a massive in for me, and so having my hands in my pockets-- At least I've got pockets on my costume.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: My guest is Tom Francis. We're talking about Sunset Boulevard. He stars as Joe Gillis. If you had to describe Joe's arc in this piece, what would Joe's arc be?

Tom Francis: He starts off incredibly disillusioned with a pretty tough industry, and as he works his way through, he gets offered a deal with the devil almost, which he ends up taking, and sees what it's like to have a substantial amount of wealth and things that he's never had before. I think it always plays with him because he's a very intelligent man, and I think that he's sort of very confused as to why he's ended up in the position that he's ended up in, and eventually decides that it's not the life that he wants, and that he was happier at the beginning, before it all becomes too late.

Alison Stewart: Is it true that initially you were told not to watch the movie?

Tom Francis: Yes, I've still not watched it.

Alison Stewart: You still not watching?

Tom Francis: I'm not allowed to, no. We're very--

Alison Stewart: Wow. That's interesting.

Tom Francis: We've got very-- They're not rules, but they're--

Alison Stewart: Tenets?

Tom Francis: Yes. They're sort of ideologies behind the show in which, like, we've created our version, and it's very important for us to keep that as intact as possible, so I've never read a review. I've never watched, or I've not listened to our album yet. That's probably, like, one of the-- I've heard Sunset Boulevard because it's been all over social media, but I've not listened to any of the other songs. Yes, I've watched the Olivier thing, but that was the first time that I saw myself do the thing. We've never seen anything. We've never watched anything to do with ourselves because we don't want to mess with the production.

Alison Stewart: Well, I'm going to make you listen to something in just a minute. [laughs]

Tom Francis: Well, yes, we can do it. It won't mess it up too much. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Well, let's listen to this clip of Joe and Norma, who's played by Nicole Scherzinger, and she had a little bit of a clue that Joe is having an affair with Betty. This is from Sunset Boulevard.

[Sunset Boulevard clip plays]

Norma Desmond: You went out last night, didn't you, Joe?

Joe Gillis: I went for a walk.

Norma Desmond: You took the car.

Joe Gillis: I drove to the beach.

Norma Desmond: Who's Betty Schaefer?

Joe Gillis: Surely, you don't want me to feel like a prisoner in this house.

[background music]

Norma Desmond: You don't understand, Joe. I'm under a terrible strain. It's been so hard. I even got myself a revolver. The only thing that stopped me from killing myself was the thought of all those people waiting to see me back on the screen. How could I disappoint them? All I ask is a little patience, a little understanding.

Joe Gillis: Norma, there's nothing to worry about. I haven't done anything.

Norma Desmond: Of course, you haven't. Good night, my darling.

[background music]

Joe Gillis: I should have stayed there, poor Norma

So desperate to be ready for what would never happen

But Betty would be waiting,

We had a script to finish

One unexpected love scene

Two people, both risking

A kind of happy ending.

Alison Stewart: Almost so much.

Tom Francis: Wow. Good job with the album, right?

Alison Stewart: [laughs] You and Nicole didn't meet until the first day, yes?

Tom Francis: Yes, the first day.

Alison Stewart: How did you develop-- This is such a boring question, but it is interesting. How did you develop your relationship on stage? I think it's interesting.

Tom Francis: Yes, I think it's great. Basically, we have this method in The Jamie Lloyd Company, which is a gridded method. There's a grid on the stage and everyone's feeding into this idea of the grid. We spent a lot of time, sort of trying to move at the same times. You have three different paces. You can run, you can walk, and then you could, like, sprint. You can go as far, whatever, but it's all on a grid.

We spent a lot of time in the first few days, mainly the four leads. David Thaxton, Grace Hodgett, Nicole, and myself. Basically we spent a lot of time figuring out this grid method. It's really weird because when you surrender yourself to that idea and everything, you become really, really aware of the other people on stage. It's almost like a spider web kind of thing. Everyone's their own spider, but any type of vibration on that grid, you are completely aware that they're there. Especially with some of Jamie's direction, there's loads of the show where we're not even looking at each other, but we're having conversations. That idea and having that foundation was the most incredible thing for all of us, because it just meant that we were so connected with each other in a really special and beautiful way. It felt really natural when we started.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting because Mandy Gonzalez is playing on Tuesday. She's playing that role, and she's kind of a Broadway legend.

Tom Francis: She is.

Alison Stewart: She was In the Heights originally. She was the second Angelica Huston in Hamilton for six years.

Tom Francis: Now she's absolutely killing it. It's unsympathetic.

Alison Stewart: I was going to ask you, this is your first time on Broadway. What have you learned from her from performing?

Tom Francis: From Mandy? God, she just eats it up every single time. She just really knows how to come in and just go.

Alison Stewart: Do it.

Tom Francis: Here we are. Yes, she's so in it. It truly is. It is remarkable watching her every single day. Well, every Tuesday. Sorry.

Alison Stewart: We'll have more with Tom Francis after the break. This is All Of It.

[music]

You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest in studio is Tom Francis. He plays Joe Gillis in Sunset Boulevard at the St. James Theatre. All right, we're going to talk about the beginning of Act 2. You leave the theater. You're singing the title song. You have to walk across 44th Street, into Shubert Alley, back through the theater. It's a six-minute stretch. What is really important to you as an actor in that six minutes when you leave the theater?

Tom Francis: Breathing.

Alison Stewart: Breathing?

Tom Francis: Yes. Just remembering to breathe. Just remember to breathe. Breathe, and just lock in with our camera woman. We've got a fantastic camera woman called Shayna McPherson.

Alison Stewart: Hi, Shayna.

Tom Francis: She's genuinely the beating heart of our production. She does quite a considerable amount of the shots in the show. She carries that camera down seven, eight flights of stairs on a twisting staircase. This camera is so heavy as well. I would really struggle. I think most people would really struggle to carry this camera for that long, and she just does it effortlessly.

Yes, we leave. I'm very supported by her. I lock in with her. I lock in with the camera, and then everything else goes blurry. In fact, there's a picture that I think the New York Times have, and in the picture, I'm blurry, but everyone else in the background is in focus. For me, when I do the walk around, it's like the opposite.

Alison Stewart: The opposite of it.

Tom Francis: I'm completely-- You know that film Limitless?

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Tom Francis: I use it as an example. It's like that. You're walking through and everything is going "brrr, brrr, brrr." [laughs]. You're just in the zone.

Alison Stewart: What is something that you see or you have seen that we can't see? Because we're just focused on you and the camera, and you're thinking, oh, my God, there's a bunch of girl scouts coming at me. What has come at you on that street?

Tom Francis: In London, we had quite a few bridesmaids, which was an interesting one, but they got siphoned off. Sometimes Deliveroo drivers, they look quite confused, and Uber Eats drivers. To be fair, predominantly, you will see everything that I will see, but you normally see the reaction afterwards. I'll see the person being asked to move out the way, and then the audience will see the confused look as a crazy man with a headset is singing Sunset Boulevard, but like, through the streets of New York.

Alison Stewart: Also, it's just you singing.

Tom Francis: Yes.

Alison Stewart: That was wild. That's the way--

Tom Francis: Yes. If you're watching me, it does just look like I've lost it. I'm walking around singing Sunset Boulevard, but I've got the orchestra in my ears. To everyone else, it does look like I'm doing the song acapella.

Alison Stewart: You have such a strong voice, but it can also be a modern voice. Have you ever thought about putting out a record?

Tom Francis: Yes. We are in the process of that-

Alison Stewart: Really?

Tom Francis: -as we speak.

Alison Stewart: Because if you go on your Instagram and you scroll back, you can see you performing, like in stairwells. We actually found this clip of you performing. It's like on a beach. It's a beautiful day. Let's play that.

[clip plays]

Tom Francis: Holdin' me back

Gravity's holdin' me back

I want you to hold out the palm of your hand

Why don't we leave it at that?

Nothin' to say

When everything gets in the way

Seems you cannot be replaced

And I'm the one who will stay, oh-oh-oh

Alison Stewart: When did you first start singing?

Tom Francis: When I was like, I love Harry.

Alison Stewart: Harry Styles, by the way, yes.

Tom Francis: I probably started singing when I was about 11, I reckon 12, 11, 12. Then, yes, I loved it.

Alison Stewart: In one of those interviews, like backstage at so and so, I think it was & Juliet. They said, "What's your prized possession?" You said, "Oh, my guitar."

Tom Francis: It is, yes.

Alison Stewart: Why is your guitar your prized possession?

Tom Francis: It's just such a fun thing to have. I think they're beautiful. I genuinely think guitars are beautiful. I think it takes so much skill to make them. It's so fun to be able to just sit down and play it. I love how guitar sound, and I love playing guitar.

Alison Stewart: Do you do it to relax now?

Tom Francis: Yes, yes, yes, 100%. It's the best relaxation.

Alison Stewart: I read that you are going to be on our TV screens, computer screens in you.

Tom Francis: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Would you know when it's coming out so we're going to see?

Tom Francis: I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say.

Alison Stewart: Oh, okay.

Tom Francis: I didn't ask anyone if I could say that actually. That's one that I will ask, but no, it's not too long away, I don't believe. I'm so excited for it to come out. It's the first TV thing that I've ever done.

Alison Stewart: Oh, really?

Tom Francis: Yes, my first ever TV job. It was a bit of a baptism by fire, but it was incredibly fun, and the entire team there is just fantastic. I couldn't have wished for a better first job in TV. Everyone from the cast, the crew, the producers, everyone.

Alison Stewart: You're a little busy right now. If someone who watches and goes to see Sunset Boulevard, what is one place in the show that you want them to pay close attention to? Either because it means a lot to you, or you think it's a really poignant part, or you just think it's really cool the way they were able to do it.

Tom Francis: I think there's a few. With one look for me is very special because I think that it's just brilliant writing from the boys that they just smash an 11 o'clock number about 15 minutes into the show. I think that's just brilliant. That is one of them. The other one would be let's do lunch because I get to go absolutely crazy in that number, and exerting that much energy is very fun, so that would be it.

Alison Stewart: You can see Tom Francis as Joe Gillis in Sunset Boulevard at the St. James Theatre. If you want to hear him, the album's out now.

Tom Francis: Yes. Go and stream it.

Alison Stewart: Really nice talking to you, Tom.

Tom Francis: Thank you so much for having me.