Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you're here. I'm especially grateful if you've already donated to us during our all-money, half-the-time fundraiser. Thank you for your support. Coming up on the show today, Lin-Manuel Miranda is here. He and his collaborator Issa Davis have turned the cult film The Warriors into a concept album. They join me in studio to explain and play some music.

We'll also speak with author Stephen Bruno about what it's like to work as a doorman on Park Avenue. He joins us to discuss his memoir, Building Material. Artist Edre Sotto joins us to discuss her beautiful new installation that's on the southeast end of Central Park. That's the plan, so let's get this show started with the battle for women's rights. Early voting began in New York and New Jersey this Saturday in an election that could yield another Trump presidency or the country's first female president.

Men and women will be casting their votes, a fact made possible by the 19th Amendment passed hardly more than a century ago. The Broadway musical Suffs brings the fight for that amendment to the stage with one of its leaders, Alice Paul, at the center, but around Alice Paul, the all-female production highlights the other women activists who fought alongside and sometimes even butted heads with Paul. One of the figures, Ida B. Wells, the Black journalist and activist played by my next guest, Nikki James, in a Tony-nominated performance.

Wells was a dedicated to suffrage for all women, white and Black, which set her at odds with the prevailing suffrage movement and its capitulations to southern white women. In the show, we see those tensions come to the surface often. Suffs won this year's Tony Awards for Best Book for a musical and Best Original Score, and was nominated in other categories, including Best Direction, with my other guest, Leigh Silverman. Silverman is also the director of Yellowface, currently on Broadway. Welcome to the studio.

Nikki James: Thank you for having us.

Leigh Silverman: Thanks for having us.

Alison Stewart: It's so exciting to talk to you. I saw this at the public in 2022, heard it was going to Broadway. Bigger space. You're able to make all kinds of changes. Leigh, what changes did you know you wanted to make?

Leigh Silverman: Well, I think Shaina had started rewriting before we had even closed at the public. She had big ideas. I think because she is the star of the show, she could feel nightly where audiences were leaning in, where they were sitting back where there was confusion. She could feel it. As the writer, she was already coming up with ways that she wanted to reconceive. We have a brand new creative team uptown. We have a new orchestrator. We have a new choreographer, and the process of bringing the show to Broadway was an absolute joy of reimagining, revisiting, reconceiving, and holding onto what felt like the core of our story and bringing it to a bigger theatrical landscape.

Alison Stewart: When you were moving to Broadway, Nikki, were there new aspects of your performance that you wanted to approach in a new way?

Nikki James: Yes, I think one of the big changes that Shaina made from downtown, at the public uptown, to the music box is bringing in a little more heart. I think she was so committed. The amount of research Shaina Taub did, she should have an honorary doctorate in women's studies. The amount of research, the amount of books, and also her commitment to telling so many diverse people's stories. She felt like she wanted to have as many facts as possible. Then as we were moving uptown, there was like an element of who are they, really?

That's where, as a dramatist, her imagination plays a part. That happened a lot with Ida's story, we get to sort of delve a little bit deeper into what Ida may have been feeling. Her own thoughts, her own doubts about the work she was doing. That was big. Then the big change that happened sort of in my personal life, that really affects what's happening for me in approaching this character is between the public and Broadway I had a child, so I became a mother, and that aspect of Ida's life was a thing that I didn't necessarily relate to as much before.

Ida was a mother of four children, and she was doing all this work while raising a family. That has really changed how I approached this character and my connection to her.

Alison Stewart: Well, congratulations on the little one.

Nikki James: Oh, thank you. Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Let's play the song that really encapsulates your character. Wait my Turn which introduces us to Ida B. Wells. Let's listen to it, and we can talk about it on the other side. This is from Suffs.

[music]

Wait my turn. When will you white women ever learn?

I had the same old talk with Carrie Chapman cat 20 years ago.

I thought you might be better, but you still don't know.

You want me to wait to my turn. To simply put, my sex before my race.

Oh, why don't I leave my skin at home and powder up my face?

Guess who always waits her turn? Who always ends up in the back?

Us lucky ones, born both female and Black. Wait my turn.

While I should not see you--

Alison Stewart: What's a line from that song that really, really captures who she's about?

Nikki James: Oh, I think you want me to put my sex before my race. I think the intersectionality of being a woman of color and wanting to put forward women's rights and also realizing that you cannot separate-- She can't separate her blackness from her womanness. In this situation, she was thinking, so you want me to support this march. In our story, Ida arrives in Washington DC, and sort of storms into the office of Alice Paul and her team on the eve of this big march on Washington, where Alice and her cohorts have asked Black women to march in the back in order to sort of make peace with some of the southern women who were saying, we would definitely want to march, but we don't want to march with those people.

That's a theme that I feel every day of my life, where you're asking, you can't separate these two parts of yourself. I think it's really poignant, and it really in just one sentence, gets right into the heart of this issue here.

Alison Stewart: When you're thinking about all of the characters that are in the play, Leigh, you have Paul and Wells. Wells and Terrell. Terrell and Paul go on and on. How do you begin to map that out? The interpersonal conflicts?

Leigh Silverman: It's about the conflicts, and it's also about the joy of working together in community. I think we wanted to have both the ability to show the tensions and also to show what it is for these activists to all want the same thing, to be pointing in the same direction, and yet have so many different ideas about how to get it done. That felt like one of the most relatable, universal-- Certainly, the thing that I think audiences feel when they come to see the show is the idea of how do we work together in such a difficult and fractious time?

The Suffs, what they were up against, what they had much fewer resources than we do now. I think in terms of conceiving the show, what I started with was today, my relationships, my friends, the people that I work with, the activists that I know, and to say, okay, how do we bring that sense of purpose, dedication, joy, heartbreak, the cost of what all of this kind of work does? How can we bring that to an audience in a way that lets them say, yes, this is the story of then, but what is also the story of now?

Alison Stewart: We're talking about Suffs with its director, Leigh Silverman, as well as actor Nikki James, who plays Ida B. Wells. There's this interesting subplot in the show. It's the relationship between Wells and against Mary Church Terrell, who is an Black activist, educator at Black Dunbar High School. What? Did somebody say, Dunbar?

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: You know what I'm talking about. How would you describe the viewpoints that Terrell and Wells each represent?

Leigh Silverman: Well, it's so complicated and nuanced. We just touched the little surface. We have two and a half hours, and we're telling lots of stories, and we have to sing along the way, too. If we're thinking about Mary and Ida, and we just look at their backstories. Ida was born a slave in the South. She was a person who was an orphan by the time she was 16 years old, raising her siblings and fighting that fight. Mary had access to education. She had parents who had money. They were able to operate in circles in a different way. From that, they have a sort of different perspectives. Mary had a way of working within the system, befriending people, making alliances, whereas Ida was really just sort of railing and banging against the wall. When you read a lot of their writings, their diary entries, and stuff, you realize they have deep, deep respect for each other. In a lot of ways, they admired each other's ability to sort of come at this from different sides. In our show, we show their friendship, their respect, their mutual respect and love that they had for each other, as well as sort of that tension of, I can't believe you're-- I have this line, like, "Here you are again giving a speech for a bunch of white ladies. Huh?"

She says, "Why are you fighting me? I'm not the enemy." I think that there's this really juicy situation where you're fighting with a person you respect and love. Then we have this moment towards the end of the show where the 19th Amendment is passed and were on a phone call, a fictionalized imagination of how this news may have gotten to Ida, who wouldn’t have been in Tennessee. We celebrate for a second, and then Ida says, they’ll still stop our women from voting, and then Mary says, I know. Then in that moment that they’ve won this one battle, and then they’re going to continue to fight together alongside each other and sometimes against each other.

Alison Stewart: Let's hear another song. This is from the track, The Convention, part one. It takes place during the 1916 National Suffrage Association Convention. Its section features Wells and Terrell. Let's listen.

[music]

So you've agreed to speak at your hundredth white women's convention.

Are you just here to sow dissension?

Don't you resent that you're a prop? They tried out at events.

NWSA presents our rich little Negro mascot. Come here and preach.

See, we have no race hatred. We let Mary make a speech.

If I didn't speak, they wouldn't even mention race. I tolerate their system.

Cause that's the only way they'll ever listen to our case.

But when the system wants you dead, what then?

I can't have this out with you again.

Why are you fighting me? I am not the enemy.

Ladies, a photograph, please.

Alison Stewart: That's the best moment. You're both like, "Hey."

Leigh Silverman: Yes, well, because what they have to face outside is a show of unity. Because they realize they are fighting a bit bigger enemy here, but behind the scenes, they can really get at each other and change each other's minds in a way. It keeps you honest to have a collaborator and a colleague, and a comrade who is reminding you every once in a while that there are more perspectives than just your own. I think we can learn a lot from that lesson that we can disagree while also still pulling in the same direction.

Alison Stewart: One of the big differences from the downtown version and the uptown version was the song Watch Out for the Suffragettes. It was a vaudeville tune. All the actors dressed as men. This show begins with Let Mother Vote which outlines sort of the conservative strategy of Carrie Chapman Catt. It's also sort of the announcement of the show. How much did this change? Reframe your thinking about the show.

Leigh Silverman: It was everything. All of the vaudeville that was in the downtown production, was taken out for Broadway. I think one of the other major changes is that the show was mostly sung through-- Almost entirely sung through downtown. A lot of recitative and all of that was turned into a book. Tony winning book now for Uptown. I think the combination of losing the vaudeville and adding scenes, traditional book scenes, to the musical, reframed and reshaped so much of how the musical can be received.

I think that starting with let mother vote, which is, first of all, why wouldn't you start a show with Jen Colella singing? I mean, [crosstalk] come on, we're no dummies. Also you have the layout of how the world is in the moment that Alice Paul enters it. This was the prevailing strategy. Carrie's idea of being polite, gentle. Look at all of us mothers. The idea of NWSA at that time, Carrie's organization had a strategy, and by laying it out in song for us at the top of the show, gave us a world for Alice Paul to intersect with, try to join, and then fight against and say, Carrie, come on, let's get going. What are you doing? We've been like this for 60 years. Let's do something new.

She really sets up one of the other major central tensions in our show, which is the intergenerational tension.

Alison Stewart: Speak more about that. That's so interesting.

Leigh Silverman: We explore all kinds of different tensions amongst this community of people who are trying to get the vote. The intergenerational tension between Alice and Carrie, I think it's also there between Mary and Ida. We see it in a number of different places throughout the show, but it is this very, I think, relatable idea that young people come into a movement and they say, what have you been doing? You're doing it wrong. I have a better idea. The young are at the gates, which is-

Nikki James: A big song.

Leigh Silverman: -a big song at the end of act one. The top of act two, it used to be at the end of act one. It is truly, I think, the anthem and something that we as a production are really honoring, celebrating, and also trying to explore, which is for the people who have been there before, they also know something about how to get change to happen. Then, in fact, we can't have success without both. We need Carrie, and we need Alice. We need Ida, and we need Mary. Sometimes they don't know they need each other, but I think part of what the show is exploring is that it takes us all.

Alison Stewart: We're talking about Suffs with Nikki James. She plays Ida B. Wells, and Lee Silverman, she's the director. You mentioned you had a child. How much did motherhood really shape the way you think about this show?

Nikki James: Right now? Audience, I'm trying not to cry. Becoming a mother changed how I think about not just this show, but everything in my career. What am I willing to leave my family for? What sacrifices are worth making? We live in a world where not every job that I take as an actor even will cover all of my childcare expenses. There's the practical concerns, and then I also have to think about what I want my legacy to be. I want my child to be proud that when I left the house and wasn't able to put her to bed any night for a year, that I was doing something that I both believed in and I thought made the world a better place.

Doing this show, being surrounded by a company of mostly women and female-identifying, non-binary performers and being held up by this community, and when I was breastfeeding a young five-week-old child during a workshop back in the early parts of 2023, and knowing that those people had my back, and then walking on that stage every night and seeing audiences moved, seeing people see themselves, seeing people feel hopeful, seeing people see a history that they didn't know they were a part of and wanting to explore that makes it worth it.

Then it also makes me think oftentimes, especially this show, which is looking backwards and forwards, I'm a mother, and my mother is still around and doing a really great job helping me raise my child. The connectivity that at least talking about the generational stuff, I have such a deep respect for my mom now, in a way. The way you roll your eyes and your parents know nothing. Now I realize, "Oh, my God, she knows so much." Also, we're flailing. Half the time your child is asking a question, and she's only two, and she still asks me questions that I don't necessarily know the answer to. I think, "Wow, I have to give you an answer right now, but I'm also going to sit with that and say, is that what I want to say? Is that what I really mean?"

I'm so proud. I continue to be so proud to be a part of this, and I know that my daughter Isla will be proud of me, too, when she is able to really experience it at some point.

Alison Stewart: She said something really interesting there. They all had my back, everybody on the show. Do you think that's because of women? Largely women. Do you think it's the group of people you have? Oh, boy.

Leigh Silverman: I think Broadway specifically has not been a very hospitable place for women in general. I've had a number of experiences where women designers that I've hired, actors have said, I'm pregnant, or I'm having a child or I need childcare, I need to have a place for my breast milk, any of those kinds of considerations, that is not what Broadway was essentially built for. It's been a real joy and honor in my career to be able to when I can use whatever influence I have to change that. It was essential to this company that Nikki felt that way. We made sure that she could be breastfeeding if she wanted to in the rehearsal room while she was learning music and getting notes.

That was part of it because I think that kind of integration is essential if you want mothers and parents in your workplace. It's up to the people who are in charge of those workplaces to figure out how to make it more hospitable and at least to ask the question, "How can I? What do you need?" You can't always answer that question or satisfy with an answer, but I do think that being curious about how to make something possible is a good way to start.

Nikki James: I don't know if it's because we're all women or mostly women, or if it's just the people who are attracted to telling this kind of story are those kind of people who are thinking about community more than they're thinking about the individual. It is always nice to know that the people you're working for are walking the walk and not just talking the talk and the people that you're working with. I can't say enough good things about that aspect of it. As hard as it has been, it's been also a great joy. I'm very proud that this show is going to be a part of my story of being a mother.

Alison Stewart: It was announced the show is going to close on January 5th, and then it's going to go into national tours.

Leigh Silverman: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Why should someone who hasn't seen Suffs make time to see it before it closes?

Leigh Silverman: I mean, where to start? I think it's a--

Alison Stewart: Because the tickets are so expensive. I always say that on this show.

Leigh Silverman: Oh, yes.

Alison Stewart: To really want to see a show.

Leigh Silverman: You do.

Alison Stewart: Somebody was like, I'm going to save up and I'm going to go see Suffs.

Leigh Silverman: Yes. I will say we have a rush every single day for cheaper tickets. There's a number of different ticket initiatives that are in place right now. If you visit our website, there are a lot of different opportunities here. I do want to say that Suffs is a very unique theatrical experience. I think the opportunity to see this show right now leading up to the election and post-election, it's giving you something, not just an entertainment and not just history, but an opportunity to feel hope, to sit in a room and feel the feelings with a group of other people who care potentially about the kinds of things that you care about, which is progress and possibility and being part of a bigger community.

It feels like this show right now, in this moment until January 5th, and then when we go on the road, is hopefully bringing people together to feel inspired to continue to make change in their own communities as well.

Nikki James: I always say that this show is hopeful without being naive or cynical. There's so much entertainment that leans into the worst aspects of the world, and this is about the best aspects of people and about community but acknowledges that it is difficult. It's not Pollyanna at all, but it's also not saying-- It's not cynical. Shaina Taub's music is extraordinary. She is an unbelievable dramatist and songwriter. I'm telling you, you're not going to see a more talented group of people who love each other more on stage.

If you're going to spend your $100 on something or your $150 on something, I think Suffs is the one. We're not around for that much longer, so you have a lot of time to see all the other stuff. Come see Suffs before January 5th. Made my friend cry who I took her.

Alison Stewart: The name of the show is Suffs. I've been speaking to Nikki James and Leigh Silverman. Thanks for coming to the studio. Thank you.

Leigh Silverman: Thanks for having us.