Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Katie Gavin is best known as a member of the critically acclaimed band MUNA. With MUNA, Gavin wrote the hit song Silk Chiffon, and she's toured with Taylor Swift and Phoebe Bridgers. Now, Katy has struck out on her own. She released her debut solo album, What A Relief. The album is stripped back and has a confessional feel. The core of the project seems to be love.

The highs of love, the lows of heartbreak, the love of a dog, the love of a mother for her daughter, and the everyday romance of doing life together, even if every moment doesn't feel exciting. What A Relief is out now. Katie Gavin is performing in our area this week. Today and tomorrow, she's opening for Lucy Dacus at Radio City Music Hall. You can also catch her DJ set tonight at the Market Hotel after the show, but first, we're going to hear from Katie performing live.

She joined us last December to discuss the album. I'll let her introduce the first song we're going to hear.

Katie Gavin: We're going to do a song called Casual Drug Use. Here we go. [laughs]

[MUSIC: Katie Gavin - Casual Drug Use]

She's got plastic flowers on her dashboard

And her wardrobe in her trunk

I'm not sleeping tonight

I know, I know, I did not need that last one

San Vicente, I was apprehensive about taking this trip

Some days you do your best

Some days you do what gets you out of bed

She was smiling, and I was thinking

It's a little unnerving how fast I'll fall back in

To fixing my issues with casual drug use

But I'm not gonna lose it 'cause we're not going to get

Wherever we're going, right this moment

I know she had a reason that she wanted

To go find a mountain

I don't feel any kind of need to ask her

'Cause I've got a good one

I'm just happy she's around when I start thinking

It's a little unnerving how fast I'll fall back in

To fixing my issues with casual drug use

But I'm not gonna lose it 'cause we're not going to get

Wherever we're going, right this moment

And I feel like nothing is ruined

I feel like nothing is

We were looking over across the freeway at downtown

She said sometimes it's harder to come back home than to come down

And for some strange reason I found that very hysterical

And I thought maybe I'll change tomorrow but if I don't

I, I, I feel like it's a little unnerving how fast I fall back in

To fixing my issues with casual drug use

But I'm not gonna lose it 'cause we're not going to get

Wherever we're going, right this moment

And I feel like nothing is ruined

I feel like nothing is

Alison Stewart: That was Katie Gavin with a live performance, Casual Drug Use. Just in case the Internet's wrong, but I'm going to-- That was actually written about a 2016 breakup, yes?

Katie Gavin: Yes, it was. It was written while I was going through a 2016 breakup and it was written about some real life experiences related to that.

Alison Stewart: Now, you wrote the song. Was it for you to put on a solo album sometime, somewhere, or was it for MUNA?

Katie Gavin: No, actually, the original version, I made on a session on Ableton Live, it was meant to be a MUNA song, and it just didn't fit in the world of that record. I kept it in my back pocket. Then, when I realized I was making a solo record, it came back out on the table.

Alison Stewart: When did you know it was time to make a solo record?

Katie Gavin: It happened during the pandemic. I was talking to a few friends and songwriters of mine. It started with two friends of mine, Eric Radloff, who has a project called Okudaxij, try and spell that if you can, and my friend Scott Heiner. When the pandemic hit, we just didn't have that much else to do. They really loved these songs and said, "What if we just started arranging them?"

Then MUNA got dropped in 2020 from RCA, we got re-signed to Phoebe Bridger's label, and I was working on these songs, so I showed them to her and she said, "I would like to put out this record as well."

Alison Stewart: What did it feel like when you got dropped?

Katie Gavin: You know what, we were already having an existential crisis as a band, and just as queers in our late 20s, as you do. I think it really made us refocus on why we do this and whether it felt right for us to keep going. It also put us in touch with the fact that we have so many people in our community who believe in us. We were very lucky that leaving a major label, we had other people who wanted to continue to support us and work with us, but I think refocused us as a band.

Alison Stewart: What does the title mean? What A Relief.

Katie Gavin: What A Relief. It's in a song that we're not playing today, called Keep Walking, but the larger line is like, what a relief to know that some of this was my fault and I'm not a victim after all. It's this idea of actually taking accountability for your own flaws and things that you're working on, it's a relief because it means that you have agency and there's possibility to change. I also just thought it sounded good.

Alison Stewart: What A Relief.

Katie Gavin: What A Relief.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Katie Gavin, and we're talking about her new album, What A Relief. I read that this was Lilith Fair core. That's sort of the vibe of the record.

Katie Gavin: Yes.

Alison Stewart: When you think about Lilith Fair, what adjectives would you use to describe the artist who played at Lilith Fair? I remember it well.

Katie Gavin: Yes. I think they're my favorite musicians. There's so much brilliant songwriting going on there. There's so much introspection. I really think about the importance, for me, of seeing women and queer people seeing themselves as just the subjects in their own lives and writing songs that are about their own internal worlds. I also think about the community.

I remember watching the documentary and hearing about the Indigo Girls bringing everybody together and trying to encourage collaboration on the road. That has been really important to me as an artist, and has kept me going.

Alison Stewart: It's a good time.

Katie Gavin: Yes. Oh, my God, I wish I was there. I want to do it again. I think we should do it again.

Alison Stewart: Why not? Why not? Is there any song from that period, that Lilith Fair period, that really sings to you?

Katie Gavin: I think it would probably be Closer To Fine, the Indigo Girls' song, is really important to me. I got to sing it with them at the Greek in September, which was amazing. I also have to give a shout out to Sarah. Building A Mystery, on Spotify wrapped, it was my top listened to song for a couple of years. Internally, I'm staying in that universe.

Alison Stewart: Let's hear another song from your new album, What A Relief. What are we going to listen to?

Katie Gavin: We're going toplay a song called As Good As It Gets, featuring my talented colleague Nana Adjoa on vocals here.

Alison Stewart: This is Katie Gavin.

[MUSIC: Katie Gavin - As Good As It Gets]

Do I disappoint you?

Am I not what I seemed?

I get disappointed too

When love is not what I dreamed

You only understand me

80 percent of our days

The sex can be amazing

And otherwise it's okay

But I think this is as good as it gets, my love

I think this is as good as it gets

Pray to God that you think that it is enough

I think this is as good as it gets

I think this is as good as it gets

I want you to disappoint me

On and on until we're old

I'm inside folding laundry

You're outside fixing the hose

And I think this is as good as it gets, my love

I think this is as good as it gets

Pray to God that you think that it is enough

I think this is as good as it gets

I think this is as good as it gets, I think it is

I think this is as good as it gets

I think this is as good as it gets

As good as it gets

Alison Stewart: That's Katie Gavin from her new album, What A Relief. On that song, you heard Nana Adjoa performing. On the record, though, it's Mitsky, yes?

Katie Gavin: It is.

Alison Stewart: How'd that collaboration come about?

Katie Gavin: I had her phone number. I just texted her. It was Phoebe's idea, actually, that it should be a duet. Mitsky's my favorite songwriter, so I wanted to have her. She was my first choice.

Alison Stewart: Yes, you're on Phoebe Bridger's label, and I have to imagine that she's a good creative soundboard.

Katie Gavin: Yes, she's a really good A&R person. I'm a lucky girl. I also worked with Tony Berg, who produced the record and works with Phoebe a lot, so it was nice to have them both as sounding boards.

Alison Stewart: What advice did Tony Berg give you?

Katie Gavin: He worked with me a lot, actually, on what's called pre production. I just went to his house a bunch of days in a row and played him, like, 40 demos, and we restructured certain songs and changed certain chords. He really pushes you to make interesting choices that serve the song. I can be a bit of a classicist in terms of songwriting. I just stick to verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus. He pushes you outside of the box a little bit.

Alison Stewart: I was going to ask you, do you ever get precious about your songs? Then somebody comes in and just says, "Hey, guess what? We're going to move this. We're going to move this over here," and you're like, "Whoa--"

Katie Gavin: No, for sure. Yes. It's never really like that. I'm about to be 32, so I've been working in music for a really long time, and I feel like I've learned how to advocate for myself in a certain way, and say, like, "Hey, I'm a precious baby creative, and I have to be treated really delicately in order to not shut down in the studio." Yes, we had certain points of contention, actually, in the last song we're going to play for you.

There's a line in it that was questioned because it's just a weird line, but sometimes, you know in your heart that you know it's right. Ultimately, you know, that's what this solo project was about. A lot for me was like, learning to trust my own instinct.

Alison Stewart: What is the difference between writing a song for MUNA and writing a song that's just for Katie?

Katie Gavin: Right. I think, actually, I do kind of write without a destination in mind, or I'm constantly writing for MUNA. Really, it's like that is my primary relationship, and if they don't feel that a song is right for them, then it will go to me. Ultimately, these are B sides. These are MUNA reject songs. That's completely fine with me. I really want my legacy to be what I do with MUNA, but this is all great, on top. This is a cherry on top.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Katie Gavin. The new album is called What A Relief. So many of these songs are about love. I love the one about the dog being next to you in bed. It's really sweet.

Katie Gavin: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Does writing a song help you deal with those kind of emotions, even if it's about a dog?

Katie Gavin: Yes, actually, there's a song you're talking about, Sweet Abby Girl. I wrote that song right after I had adopted two senior dogs and one of them passed away. I wrote that song while I was really grieving. I was really struck by the grief. It was intense. I had posted it on actually, my story on Instagram, and I got a ton of people responding with their own experiences, and that moment was really pivotal for moving my grief.

I just feel like it really helps me to create stuff, share it, and then be able to talk about those feelings with other people. I'm lucky to have that tool.

Alison Stewart: You think you have a different relationship, whatever, with whatever emotion it is after you've written a song about it?

Katie Gavin: I don't know if it's that I have a different one after writing, but after sharing, I think, because it just opens up-- I need to talk about these things with other people, and know that I'm not alone in what I'm experiencing.

Alison Stewart: You've been directing your videos, a couple of videos, we should say.

Katie Gavin: Yes.

Alison Stewart: For Casual Drug Use and Aftertaste. Has that always been an ambition for you to direct?

Katie Gavin: No, but it is really fun.

Alison Stewart: I say take another take.

Katie Gavin: [laughs] Yes. I think I realized I was very lucky. I worked with this photographer and director, Alexa Vicious, who's based in Chicago, which is where I'm from, and it was just really beautiful. I got to go back to my city to do the video for Aftertaste and she handled a lot of the logistics, but I got to just have a very detailed fantasy, like, that's what directing was for me.

Then I do this at this point in the song, I made a shot list for her, and I've been doing that. I've been having detailed fantasies to pop songs since I was like 8 years old. If you think about it like that, it's not that hard.

Alison Stewart: Is her name really Alexis Vicious?

Katie Gavin: Alexa Vicious. Yes. Yes. She's the coolest.

Alison Stewart: What's it been like being on stage by yourself?

Katie Gavin: Well, I'm not by myself. It's really nice to have Nana Adjoa with me, but I think it's been really fun not having-- The biggest difference is that I don't have in ear monitors in. When we're playing a MUNA show, I have things in my ears that keep me from hearing what people in the audience are saying. I can just hear the tracks we're playing with these monitors, so I can just hear people talking to me. We're having a conversation the whole show, so I feel very much not alone.

Alison Stewart: We're going to play your last song for us, is Inconsolable and it's got this country feel to it. One YouTube comment said, "I didn't know how badly I needed yee-haw Katie until now." You co wrote this with Eric Radloff?

Katie Gavin: Yes, I did, yes. Yes, he wrote some of the pre-chorus, helped me fill in the blanks in this song.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to Inconsolable from Katie Gavin.

[MUSIC: Katie Gavin - Inconsolable]

You said, "Stay with me, and we'll fall asleep"

I was sitting on the couch and I put my hood up

Couldn't let it be, couldn't let you see

If I could've done better than you know I would've

Wanna say it first, but I don't have the words

We're from a long line of people we'd describe as inconsolable

We don't know how to be helped

Yeah, we're from a whole huddle of households

Full of beds where nobody cuddled

We don't know how to be held

But I've seen baby lizards running near the river when they open their eyes

Even though no one taught them how or why

So maybe when you kiss me, I can let you see me cry

And if we keep going by the feeling, we can get by

You do it, too, when you're in a mood

You go hiding in your house tryna be your own savior

Why can't you see, I love you even when you're acting out on your worst behavior?

But I know why, you won't let me inside

We're from a long line of people we'd describe as inconsolable

We don't know how to be helped

Yeah, we're from a whole huddle of households

Full of beds where nobody cuddled

We don't know how to be held

But I've seen baby lizards running in the river when they open their eyes

Even though no one taught them how or why

So maybe when you kiss me I can let you see me cry

And if we keep going by the feeling, we can get by

Yeah, if we keep going by the feeling, we can get by.

Alison Stewart: That was Katie Gavin from MUNA, performing from her debut solo album What A Relief. Katie Gavin is performing tonight and tomorrow at Radio City Music Hall. You can also catch Katie's DJ set at the Market Hotel tonight at 11:30 PM.