Title: Roxane Gay on Gun Ownership [music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for spending part of your Friday with us. I'm really grateful you're here. On today's show, we'll preview the upcoming fall theater season. We'll also learn about the new documentary The Cowboy and the Queen, which follows a California horse trainer whose gentle technique piqued the interest of Queen Elizabeth, and we'll speak with artist Gina Beavers, whose new exhibit is inspired by Comfort Corps. That is the plan, so let's get this started with writer Roxane Gay.

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In Roxane Gay's essay about gun ownership, she writes, "We no longer wonder if there will be another mass shooting. Instead, we wonder when the next mass shooting will happen, and wherever. Sadly, we now know in Georgia for now." Writer and professor Roxane Gay has a new essay coming out tomorrow called Stand Your Ground: A Black Feminist Reckoning with America’s Gun Problem. While the essay explores gun culture and gun safety and other issues related to shootings like the one in Georgia, it also focuses on personal gun ownership.

Gay starts with her brother, a gun enthusiast, and how her experiences with him at the range shaped her thinking on the issue. She gets into the different philosophies and self-defense during the civil rights era and explores the sometimes contradictory feelings that arise from her own experiences as a gun owner. The essay comes out tomorrow on the Everand, which is a subscription publisher. Roxanne will also be at the Harlem Book Fair tomorrow afternoon to talk about the piece. Roxanne, thanks for joining us.

Roxane Gay: Thank you so much for having me, Allison.

Alison Stewart: We are talking about civil rights, feminism, gun ownership. We're going to open the phones, and we're looking for gun owners, particularly women who own guns or who might be thinking about becoming a gun owner. Our phone lines are 212-433-9692, 212-433 WNYC. You can call or text that number. Our social media is @allofitwnyc. Tell us what went into your decision that's leading you to buy a firearm. The number, again is 212-433 WNYC.

The title of your essay is Stand Your Ground, which is a reference to the laws that say, roughly, that a person is justified to use force if they believe they are reasonably in harm's way. Tell us why you settled on that for the title of the piece.

Roxane Gay: Oh, that's a great question. I settled on that for the title because in theory, stand-your-ground laws exist in most states, and those laws state that if someone attacks your home, it's really the castle doctrine. You have the right to defend it. However, we have seen time and time again that not all people are treated equally under the rule of the law. It happens with regard to law in every realm, but especially when it comes to gun ownership.

There have been several instances where Black people have stood their ground legally in their homes as licensed gun owners and have been killed for that. I was very interested in this idea of stand-your-ground because a lot of NRA rhetoric is about protecting your family, but really, it's about protecting the white family, because when Black people try to protect themselves, all of a sudden it's a problem. Marissa Alexander. There was a young Air Force officer who was recently murdered by police, even though he was a legal gun owner in his home, and they had, I believe, the wrong address.

Philando Castile was a legal gun owner. He disclosed that he had a gun. He was in his car minding his own business, and he was killed in front of his daughter and girlfriend. What does it mean to have a legal right to something and then have that legal right ignored? That's how I ended up with the title.

Alison Stewart: Everything you just said, how much of that went through your mind in your decision to own a gun?

Roxane Gay: All of it. There's simply no way to responsibly consider owning a gun and not think about the potential repercussions. I will say, my wife and I don't have children. If we had children, it would be an absolute nonstarter. We have lots and lots of children in our lives, but they are not particularly young because we're nothing particularly young. [laughs] People are always like, "So do you think about it all the time?" No, I actually don't think about it at all because it's in a safe, and the safe is hidden, and really nobody knows where it is.

You can't not think about potential consequences, because the reality is that most gun accidents happen by owners themselves in their homes. Most gun injuries happen by someone you know, and you never want to bring that kind of danger into your home without really having a good reason, in my opinion. Some people just love guns, and I guess that's a choice, but for me, it was more about protection after receiving quite a lot of death threats. I've gotten death threats for years, but--

Alison Stewart: Got specific.

Roxane Gay: They're getting very specific and very detailed. When people start trotting out pictures of your home and things like that, this is no longer just theoretical. This is not just someone bloviating on the Internet. This is someone who, for better or worse, wants me to believe that they're going to harm me, and so I tend to take that seriously.

Alison Stewart: At the beginning of the essay, you muse about the song Janie's Got a Gun by Arrow Smith. What did you realize when you really sat down and listened to the lyrics?

Roxane Gay: When I was much younger, I loved that song when it first came out. I think I even bought the cassette. That's how old I am. I'm cassette years old. I loved it then because I had recently endured a sexual assault. In the song, this young woman, Janie, murders her father after he sexually assaults her. I just thought how great that must have felt to regain some of that power to end the harm that was coming to you.

I always thought that song was really quite anthemic. Then I revisited the song as I was thinking about, "How am I going to bring readers into this essay?" For whatever reason, that song came on the Internet Radio. I really went back and looked at the lyrics, and then I researched, "How did Steven Tyler even come up with this song?" It turns out he came up with this song because, around the time that the song came out, there was a high incidence of sexual violence that he had read about.

Also there was an incident with gun violence that he had read about. It was very interesting to see how little has changed since the song came out. I also thought it was very fitting because a lot of people would love to be able to avenge themselves.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Roxanne Gay. Her latest essay is called Stand Your Ground: A Black Feminist Reckoning with America’s Gun Problem. In the essay, you recount your brother Joel as a firearm enthusiast. I think it's the way to put him. You describe him as a young man going to the gun range, doing all his moves. You went with him.

Roxane Gay: I did.

Alison Stewart: How much of his gun ownership was a personal thing about Joel and how much was a cultural thing being from the Midwest?

Roxane Gay: I think it was 100% a personal thing about Joel. Joel was an amazing man, and he was very enthusiastic about everything he did. Once he developed a passion, he went all in. The rest of our family, when he started collecting guns, we were just like, "What is going on here?" because we're not a gun family. We were not raised around guns. My parents to this day, do not own a gun. It was very curious. I do think, of course, being around the Midwest and growing up in the Midwest where gun ownership is quite frankly, fairly normalized. It's not exotic. It's just people own guns and there's a lot of hunting and so on.

I'm sure that was partly an influence, but he just seemed to really enjoy shooting and being very good at it. He implored all of us, my other brother, my parents, and I, to get guns, and we all said absolutely not.

Alison Stewart: Why did you say absolutely not at that point in your life?

Roxane Gay: Look what happened in Georgia. I just don't think we need to own guns as a country. I really do think that there are many countries throughout the world where citizens do not own guns and everything is quite good because there are so few mass incidences. I think that anytime you normalize any of it, it softens the ground for people to commit these really grotesque acts of violence.

I saw on social media yesterday the family of the young man, and understandably, they love him, they care for him, but they're actually defending him. Whatever. It is what it is, but there's some part of people that are okay with this. JD Vance yesterday said that this is just a fact of life. I don't want to live in a world where this is a fact of life, where we surrender to the inevitability of gun violence.

If that means that everyone has to give up their guns, myself included, I will be first in line, but because it is our right as of yet, and especially during the pandemic when the threats started becoming so acute and so persistent, I made the decision to buy a gun. I don't regret that either.

Alison Stewart: You said that when you became a gun owner, it felt like a capitulation as well as empowering.

Roxane Gay: Yes, it felt both, because on the one hand, I was realizing I can either just sit here and wait for something to happen because law enforcement can't really do anything without probable cause, without a physical incursion. At the same time, everything I stand for, everything I believe in I would love to believe that there's a way that does not involve violence. Of course, I still believe that, and I still hope for that.

I hope I'm never put in a position where I have to use a gun. There is capitulation, but there is also, "I'm not going to be a sitting duck. I'm not just going to wait for the worst thing to happen."

Alison Stewart: Do you feel safer having a gun?

Roxane Gay: The gun doesn't make me feel safer. I write about this in the essay. What makes me feel safer, we also got a dog during the pandemic. His name is Maximus Toretto Blueberry Milman Gay. He weighs nine pounds, and he is a ferocious maltipoo. He's so adorable, but he is very protective. When anyone approaches the house, he barks up a storm, which in Manhattan, as you might imagine, means he barks nonstop.

I always know if there's something I need to pay attention to. It's always the mailman, by the way, and that poor mailman. That makes me feel safe to know, "Oh, this little warning system," because I've never had a dog before. It's fascinating. I'm like, "Oh, my God, look at this little warning system. It just works."

Alison Stewart: It's interesting. It is a warning system-

Roxane Gay: Truly.

Alison Stewart: -because they do have a different sense about people.

Roxane Gay: Yes. It's always interesting to see what kinds of people make him bark and what kinds of people he's fine with. Also, he'll be barking ferociously at let's say the meter reader from Con Ed coming in the house. The minute the Con Ed guy, who is always this big, burly, really nice guy, starts petting Max, Max is just like, "Oh, okay."

Alison Stewart: It's all good.

Roxane Gay: "If you're going to worship me, you're welcome. Come on in." It's very funny that for all of his bravado, the minute someone offers him pets, he's like, "You're good."

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Cheryl on line one. Hi, Cheryl. Thanks for calling in.

Cheryl: Hi, guys. Marsha, I'm looking forward to reading your essay tomorrow. I just want to say that as someone who grew up with guns more for sport, I like the marksmanship aspect. However, I do feel that if the NRA felt that there was more of a threat, as in a lot of Black women, and Black people were getting their license, maybe they would be more willing to look at the restrictions and the background checks and stuff like that.

As a knee-jerk reaction, maybe, I think if it were droves of people applying for their license, I'm just wondering how that might affect how they look at how they regulate gun and gun usage, but I feel also, women need to understand how to use guns because you never know the way things are. I think it's important to also have the knowledge of using guns because a lot of people hurt themselves or their family because they don't know how to use it. I would encourage people to pick it up as a, not craft, but as a hobby, if that works.

Alison Stewart: Cheryl, have you applied for a gun license?

Cheryl: I have applied for a gun license. I believe I actually do have one. I have a restaurant in Brooklyn, so I can also use it for safety, but it's not something I want to walk with. I don't think guns make anyone safer, but I think it's important to understand a gun should you ever have to use one.

Alison Stewart: Cheryl, thank you so much for calling. My guest is Roxanne Gay. Her latest essay is called Stand Your Ground: A Black Feminist Reckoning with America’s Gun Problem. She'll be at the Harlem Book Fair tomorrow afternoon to talk a little bit about the piece. When you were buying your gun, when you went to buy your gun, what did you observe about the gun buyer?

Roxane Gay: Actually, I don't have a gun in New York. Let me be clear, because it's just very hard to get one, and I don't have that kind of time. We also live in Los Angeles, and that's where I bought the gun. It was during COVID. You had to make an appointment and wait in the parking lot before your appointment. There were only two or three people in the store at a time, but it was mostly men. However, what really began the idea for this essay was that I also noticed both at the gun store and at the gun range, a lot of people of color, especially Black women, were there.

That forced me to really rethink my preconceived notions about who owns guns, who uses guns, etcetera. I started talking to other Black women and realized there is something here. Black women are arming themselves at unprecedented rates. Statistics, of course, back this up. It's not just anecdotal. That was really interesting to me because you don't necessarily think of Black women. What the previous caller said, she's onto something interesting. Historically, the only time the NRA has been behind gun background checks is when Black people have, in significant numbers, tried to own guns.

Alison Stewart: We'll continue our conversation with Roxane Gay after a quick break. This is All Of It.

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You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Allison Stewart. We're talking with writer Roxane Gay. Her latest essay is called Stand Your Ground: A Black Feminist Reckoning with America’s Gun Problem. It drops tomorrow on the subscription publication Everand. Roxanne will also be at the Harlem Book Fair tomorrow to talk about the piece. In your piece, you link abortion rights to guns. How are they connected?

Roxane Gay: As I was thinking through this essay and writing it, I was also reading quite a lot about the overturning of Roe v. Wade and a lot of the legislative attempts that have failed in many states to completely ban abortion and the attempts that have also succeeded and the ways in which, in many states, abortion rights have been reduced to nearly nothing. It just made me realize, as a woman, as a person with a uterus, I have more rights as a gun owner than I do as my gender.

That is alarming. I think everyone should be alarmed about that, because women should have bodily autonomy, and we should be able to decide what we do with our bodies, and the government should not interfere in our healthcare. Yet we're, as a culture, so permissive with regard to guns, especially in states like Texas, Florida. Most states are actually open-carry, which people don't realize. I think it's 40 at this point. Actually, it might even be 45, but in some states, you don't even need licensing. You can just go buy a gun. There's no waiting period. There's no background check, and that's unconscionable.

We have to do more rigorous things to get a pet, to get a car. We had to do all kinds of things to get our dog, and rightfully so. It's a responsibility. Driving a car is a responsibility. Why don't we treat gun ownership in that same way across the country? In California, it's not difficult, but there's a lot of bureaucracy, and there should be. There's a ten-day waiting period, and there should be.

Alison Stewart: There's that old-- What is it? The Simpsons, "I want to buy a gun now. I'm mad now." He's like, "No. Three days." "No, I'm mad now." It's interesting, your description of buying it in California, because there are things you have to do. I thought to myself, "I thought gun owners wanted less government in their lives." I think they wanted, "Get out. It's not supposed to happen," but they were willing to do it to get the gun.

Roxane Gay: Yes. That's one of the biggest legal issues in California, is that many second-right amendment enthusiasts want there to be fewer strictures. In fact, a judge in San Diego, a federal judge, actually recently overturned the ten-day waiting period. It has not happened yet because it's being contested further down the line. I think it's going to go to one of the circuits. For now, there's still that ten-day waiting period, and you can only buy one gun a month only.

People are trying to get rid of that because they feel like the strictures in California are too rigorous, are too restrictive. They do want less government involved, and as far as I'm concerned, the more the merrier. If we do not regulate this, what happened in Georgia happens. We have parents buying their children AR15s, and of course, that should unilaterally be banned. I would say that to anyone any day of the week.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting. In Georgia, four people were killed, nine others were injured. The father of the son was charged with nonvoluntary manslaughter, two counts of second-degree murder, eight counts of cruelty to children. What do you think about the father being charged?

Roxane Gay: I think that's perfect. I think that's exactly what should happen. The 14-year-old, he's being charged as an adult. What's interesting is prosecutors in Georgia were quick to say that, within an hour of shooting.

Alison Stewart: Yes, they were.

Roxane Gay: I don't know what's right, but I also know at 14 years old, you don't know anything about anything. You're not fully formed as a human. Should there be consequences for what he did? Absolutely, because he took four people's lives, but he didn't just buy the gun. He didn't just take himself to school. People in his life knew that there were problems here. The FBI spoke to both him and his father the previous year, and they didn't have probable cause.

The father said he had no access to AR15s. Then months after that, the father bought his son an automatic rifle. The culpability begins and ends with the father. The son is, of course, also responsible, but he was clearly raised in an environment where this sort of egregious behavior was enabled. The father is going to have to answer for that.

Alison Stewart: Let's take another call. Richard is calling in from Jersey City. Hi, Richard. Thank you so much for calling All Of It.

Richard: Hi. Glad to hear your voice.

Alison Stewart: Thanks.

Richard: I wanted to say that back in the early '90s, I was a member of ACT UP, the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power and Queer Nation, and other auxiliary groups like that. There was a proposal brought to the floor of ACT UP after a group of fairly high-profile queer bashings around Manhattan and Brooklyn that we should all go en masse down to the gun licensing bureau and apply for licenses and have it reported in the media, figuring that queer bashers would be less likely to mess with people if they knew that we were armed.

Alison Stewart: What did you think about that?

Richard: I thought it was a great idea. I would have never gotten a license myself. I thought as a symbolic act, it would have been perfect, but it was voted down on the floor of ACT UP because ACT UP is a nonviolent group. I thought the idea of it was pretty remarkable and wonderful. I personally would never own a gun.

Alison Stewart: Richard, thank you so much for calling in with that. He talked about the ACT UP group. You talked about civil rights in your essay. You talked about Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, Black Panther party, thinking about guns as a way of protecting oneself under the right circumstance, a legitimate tool. With everything that's changed within the civil rights movement, including the rise in mass shootings, what parts of those ideas hold up? What parts do you think could use some revision?

Roxane Gay: What's interesting about the civil rights movement is that it took a lot of different strategies to get where we are today, and we still have a long way to go. Nonviolence is incredibly important. It really is. It doesn't mean passivity at all. Anyone who has worked with ACT UP, which does incredible work, knows that nonviolence doesn't mean they're just sitting like a wallflower. Many civil rights activists also believed we should fight fire with fire. I do think that also advanced the movement.

One of the key things that I think has endured is that we need to take multiple approaches to affecting real change and to affecting real revolution. We cannot rely on any one strategy. I also think that we live in a world where if you want to be perceived as strong, if you want to be perceived as worthy of engaging with, you have to-- I don't even know what the word I'm looking for is here, but you have to project strength. You have to think about, "What are the ways I can best do that?" I don't think that just waving a gun projects strength. That's not what I'm saying.

I do think that you need a show of force. Right now, I think the best force we have is numbers, that the more people who say, "This is the kind of change we need," whether it's abortion access or addressing racial inequality or police brutality, the better off we'll be. When we look to history, it's because all of these people were fighting toward the same goal, and I do think that's the thing that lasts.

Alison Stewart: I want to play a clip from you from BoJack Horseman. It's funny-not funny. It's about the gendered role of guns. I believe it's after there's been a mass shooting. This is the way that Congress and the people react to the shooting. Let's take a listen.

Speaker 3: I just think this is what happens when you give women guns. They start shooting people with them. Do they even know what guns are for?

Speaker 4: I don't feel safe anymore walking down my own street alone at night. Me, a man.

Speaker 5: What are my constituents supposed to do? Not compliment random women on the street because they might be carrying a gun? We cannot allow our lives to be dictated by that kind of fear.

Speaker 6: Look, all I'm saying is maybe you shouldn't blame women for wanting guns. Maybe you should blame the constant societal messaging that tells us we are safe only as long as the men around us allow us to be. If you have a problem with women carrying firearms, you can roll up your sleeves and actually work to create a society where women feel safe and equal, or you can just ban all guns.

Speaker 7: The ayes have it. Possession of any firearm is now illegal in the state of California. We did it, boys. [applause]

Speaker 8: Congratulations. How fabulous.

Speaker 9: I really thought that was going to go the other way.

Speaker 10: Wow, Diane, you just passed sensible gun legislation.

Speaker 9: I can't believe this country hates women more than it loves guns.

Alison Stewart: What's the most true part of that?

Roxane Gay: That this country hates women more than it loves guns. We see that time and time again. Let's hope that's changed come November.

Alison Stewart: You got one minute. If you had to pose a question-- next week's the debate, pose a question to Harrison Trump, what would it be?

Roxane Gay: I have nothing to ask Trump because we already know who he is, but I really want to ask Kamala Harris when she will step up and really separate herself from some of Biden's policies with regard to Gaza and develop her own policy and one that is humane and recognizes the extent of the suffering there.

Alison Stewart: Roxane Gay will be at the Harlem Book Fair tomorrow afternoon to talk about her piece, Stand Your Ground: A Black Feminist Reckoning with America’s Gun Problem. Thank you for coming to the studio.

Roxane Gay: Thank you, Allison. It's been great.

[00:26:31] [END OF AUDIO]

 

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