Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. The Vatican is now preparing for the election of a new pope. On Wednesday, the process begins. It's a moment of global significance and one that mirrors the events in the film Conclave. In the movie, the pope has died and a group of cardinals is locked away in the Sistine Chapel to choose the next leader of the Catholic Church. Factions form on papal and political lines. One candidate represents staunch traditionalism. Another is a center-right conservative. A third voices openly homophobic views. Then a newcomer enters the fray, a cardinal with exceptional liberal values.

Actor Stanley Tucci plays Cardinal Aldo Bellini, an American who champions progressivism. He says he doesn't want the role until he does. Here's a clip from early in the film when Tucci's character speaks to Cardinal Dean Lawrence, played by Ralph Fiennes.

Cardinal Aldo Bellini: Father Bellini.

Cardinal Dean Lawrence: Aldo.

Cardinal Aldo Bellini: Am I the last?

Cardinal Dean Lawrence: Not quite. How are you?

Cardinal Aldo Bellini: Oh, well, fairly dreadful. Have you seen the papers?

Cardinal Dean Lawrence: Yes.

Cardinal Aldo Bellini: Apparently, it's already decided it’s to be me.

Cardinal Dean Lawrence: I happen to agree with them.

Cardinal Aldo Bellini: What if I don't want it? No sane man would want the papacy.

Cardinal Dean Lawrence: Some of our colleagues seem to want it.

Cardinal Aldo Bellini: What if I know in my heart that I am not worthy?

Cardinal Dean Lawrence: You are more worthy than any of us.

Cardinal Aldo Bellini: I'm not.

Cardinal Dean Lawrence: Well, then tell your supporters not to vote for you to pass the chalice.

Cardinal Aldo Bellini: Let it go to him? I could never live with myself.

Alison Stewart: Conclave won an Oscar for Best Adapted Screenplay, four BAFTAs, and two Critics' Choice Awards, including Best Acting Ensemble. It's available to stream now on Amazon Prime. I spoke with the actor who plays Cardinal Bellini, Stanley Tucci, and director Edward Berger, who won an Oscar for All Quiet on the Western Front. I began my conversation by asking Edward why Conclave took a while, even though he started thinking about the film around the same time or even before his film All Quiet on the Western Front.

Edward Berger: Some movies sort of have a dynamic and they just happen quickly. All Quiet was a timely film at the time, and this became timely right now. It's the perfect timing, actually, for both of them. It's just getting the script right, finding wonderful actors like Stanley Tucci. He wasn't available for years and I tried to find-- followed him around. Then I needed him to be in the film. Sometimes you've scheduled your movies around fantastic people like Stanley.

Alison Stewart: Stanley, you weren't around for years, it's said.

Stanley Tucci: The man is a pathological liar, but I love him.

Edward Berger: [laughs]

Alison Stewart: This is going to be interesting then. You read the book La Fortuna. When did you hear about the film adaptation?

Stanley Tucci: Oh, well, yes. I read Conclave about four years ago. It was during the last election, so I remember very distinctly when I read it. I was sequestered in Spain making a television series, and I just loved it because I loved Robert Harris's writing. Anyway, a couple of years later, the script came to me, and I was more than thrilled, also more than thrilled that Edward was directing it. Then all of the pieces came together, as Edward said, because I think the timing was absolutely appropriate because it mirrors a lot of what's happening in our world politically.

Alison Stewart: I'm sorry, I said you read. You were filming La Fortuna.

Stanley Tucci: Yes, I was filming La Fortuna.

Alison Stewart: I'm sorry, that was my mistake.

Stanley Tucci: That's all right. I didn't want to correct you.

Alison Stewart: Well, they appreciate it, but please do. You never know.

Stanley Tucci: [laughs]

Alison Stewart: When meet Bellini early on, he's the Cardinal Dean's person. He's this guy, as we heard in the intro clip. What are they united by?

Stanley Tucci: What are who united by, sorry?

Alison Stewart: Bellini and Lawrence, what are they united by? Why are they friends in a way?

Stanley Tucci: You don't know why you become friends with people sometimes. You may have different views politically or aesthetically, but morally, they are twins, I think. That's what brings them together. Now, I say that because you can be moral twins with someone because you trust them, but the key thing is that you have to trust yourself. That's what this movie is about so much, is about trusting yourself and knowing yourself.

As it turns out, that trust of yourself and that trust between them, it becomes slightly broken because of the machinations that are going on. In the end, their friendship succeeds. Their friendship goes on because Cardinal Bellini makes an admission that he understands that he-- Well, I won't give it away. Let's say that.

Alison Stewart: Fair.

Stanley Tucci: Friendship is about trust and love and sharing a moral ground.

Alison Stewart: Edward, why was Stanley the right actor to play Bellini?

Edward Berger: I cast Ralph and Stanley at about the same time. Maybe Stanley a tiny bit before because you want to make sure that whoever is right opposite Ralph is the right person. It felt that Stanley is a wonderful person. I believe they could be friends. I believed and I saw them as while they clearly have sympathy towards each other, they feel very different. One is a very, I would say, internal person and other feels like a bit more communicative. That felt like a friction that was very interesting to the friendship of these two characters. I believed that he could absolutely represent someone with those political views.

Stanley Tucci: I think the thing, Edward, what I want to-- It's interesting you say that because Ralph and I have become friends in real life. We were friendly prior to this, but it has only bonded us. We are very different people. Yet, when we're together, it's great fun. I'm a huge admirer.

Edward Berger: Yes, and it felt like two wonderful actors, if they meet each other, there's a certain wanting to be there for each other, wanting to be good for each other, wanting to be as better as the other one. It's a little bit of a friendly-- not battle, but something like if I have a good discussion with an intelligent partner, that person makes me more intelligent. That feels like, with Ralph and Stanley, they'd egg each other on and they would be--

You just want to be really good if you're across from Stanley Tucci. You want to be really good if you're across from Ralph Fiennes. That just felt inherently right. One is American, the other is British. That comes with very different qualities, and they have very different acting styles that I think can complement each other beautifully.

Alison Stewart: Edward, the movie Conclave is a drama in many ways, but occasionally it's amusing. There are times when I'm amused watching it. How did you figure out-

Edward Berger: Great.

Alison Stewart: -how to use the humor and the juiciness of the script when you first read it?

Edward Berger: Again, it's a lot of the actors bring the humor to the film. When you read the script, obviously, it's a thriller and it's dramatic. Immediately, I had images that would break the piousness of the church, that would break the piousness of these jobs that these men have and the old buildings and everything. It just felt like, "Okay, if I put an espresso machine basically into the Sistine Chapel, into those chambers, if I put a vape into that, if I put cigarettes or iPhones, that's unexpected, and that could come with laughter." Then you get the right people who interpret that and they have fun doing it. That fun transmits to the screen and the audience responds to it.

It's actually a surprise. I didn't expect it as much. I expected that people would be satisfied. Isabella Rossellini gets a scene applause in many cinemas because she does a curtsy and she tells these men off, basically. No one's there to do it. The audience feels relieved and she speaks their mind, and so they applaud her for saying that. It's really gratifying when that happens.

Alison Stewart: Stanley, I'm interested in how you think about the tone of the project overall versus what you have to bring to the character.

Stanley Tucci: Well, no, they're part and parcel. As an actor, you have to fit into the tone of the film. If you're playing a tertiary role or a secondary role, whatever, and first of all, the script, second of all, the director, they set the tone very clearly, and you must be a part of that. If you're not, you're just kind of showing off or trying to be different or trying to get attention or something like that, separate yourself, and you can't. Your job as an actor is to fit into the story perfectly and to tell that story the way it's meant to be told or the way the director has chosen for it to be told. That's it. As I said, if you try to do something different, then it's a bit show-offy.

Alison Stewart: My guests are actor Stanley Tucci and director Edward Berger. We're discussing Conclave, about all the machinations behind selecting a new pope. Let's listen to another clip from Conclave. Bellini claims he doesn't want the papacy, but when people start voting for Lawrence and taking votes away from him, his tune changes a little bit. Let's hear a clip featuring you and Ralph Fiennes.

Cardinal Aldo Bellini: I thought we had your support. If we liberals are not united, Tedesco will become pope. You have no idea how bad it became, Thomas, the way he and his circle attacked the Holy Father towards the end. The smears, the leaks to the press, it was savage. He fought him every single day of his pontificate. Now that he's dead, he wants to destroy his life's work. If Tedesco becomes pope, he will undo 60 years of progress.

Cardinal Dean Lawrence: You talk as if you're the only alternative, but Adeyemi has the wind behind him.

Cardinal Aldo Bellini: Adeyemi?

Cardinal Dean Lawrence: Yes.

Cardinal Aldo Bellini: Adeyemi, the man who believes that homosexuals should be sent to prison in this world and hell in the next. Adeyemi is not the answer to anything, and you know it. If you want to defeat the Tedesco--

Cardinal Dean Lawrence: Defeat? This is a conclave, Aldo, it's not a war.

Cardinal Aldo Bellini: It is a war, and you have to commit to a side.

Alison Stewart: Why does Bellini at first say that he doesn't really want it, Stanley?

Stanley Tucci: Because he thinks he doesn't want it, because he doesn't know himself yet, which he says later in the film. He doesn't know himself yet. He thinks he knows him. We all think we know ourselves, but we don't, which is the beautiful part of growing older and the awful part of growing older. The not knowing and, suddenly, realizations or epiphanies are what create regrets. I think that he thinks he doesn't want it because he thinks he's purer than he is, but we all do.

Alison Stewart: Interesting. Before the voting begins, Edward, Cardinal Lawrence delivers a speech to all the cardinals in which he says, "Let us hope the next pope is one who has doubts." How is that message central to the theme of the film?

Edward Berger: He says, "The next pope, I hope, is someone who has doubts," because the world is full of certainty. We are surrounded by people who say, "This is the way. That's the way," but actually, no one knows, in faith or politics or anything, or even directing movies. To me, the expression of doubt invites discussion and invites a discourse and hearing other people and getting there, and then making the wisest decision based on advice and on listening within yourself rather than shouting the loudest. That's Ralph's internal journey.

He says, basically, "I have difficulty with prayer." He goes through a crisis. He doubts his profession, he doubts his faith. It's almost like I'm saying I have difficulty believing in the power of the camera, or you saying, "I'm definitely believing in my words." You go through this existential crisis, and you start to embrace doubts. In the end, he comes out having overcome that and embracing the possibility of a future that brings change to his organization. That's the wonderful arc that he goes through.

Alison Stewart: Stanley, you grew up in the Catholic Church, right up in Westchester. How has your relationship with religion changed since childhood and even changed in doing this film?

Stanley Tucci: Doing the film was interesting because I was revisiting certain aspects of the Catholic Church that I remember. Yes, I was raised Catholic, went to church every day, made my first communion, my catechism was confirmed. By the age of 18, 19, I chose not to go to church any longer. To me, I'm not a religious person, and that's my choice.

If someone is Catholic and they believe in Christ, great. If someone is a Buddhist, if someone is a Muslim, if someone is whatever, great. Just don't foist it upon me, that's all. If it makes you happy and it helps you be a stronger, better person, that's great. That is the only issue I have with a lot of organized religion today, which is it seems to be, "If you don't believe what I believe, then you're a bad person." I don't believe that.

My late wife was a secular humanist. That made a bit more sense to me. I'm a little like Groucho Marx in the sense that I don't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member.

Alison Stewart: [chuckles] Edward, you filmed in Rome. Was that always the plan?

Edward Berger: Yes, it was. Of course, we evaluated other places for financial reasons, because, obviously, you want to shoot this movie in Rome. In the end, Rome became such an important element to the shooting and to the atmosphere of the film, and it influenced the film tremendously. Not only the architecture but also the people and the experiences we had there.

For example, when you wake up in the morning, you have your coffee there, and you look out the window and you see a nun smoking a cigarette on the street or two archbishops having a coffee in the cafe downstairs, you realize they're just people, people going to work. That humanity became the main driving force for the film. That became the movie, trying to discover the humanity within Ralph, Stanley, John Lithgow, Lucian Msamati, all the actors in the movie, and their characters.

Alison Stewart: The movie came out a little over a week after the US general election. Germany's chancellor lost vote of confidence yesterday, which leaves it in the hands of a caretaker government until next year. Stanley, how have the messages of this movie taken on a new meaning for you, given recent political events?

Stanley Tucci: I don't know that the movie has a message as much as it just simply shows the machinations of what's happening and the political intrigue. I can't say it has a message. If you take a message from it, that's up to you. It lays out who these people are and how the Catholic Church deals with the choosing of a new pope.

I think, obviously, we're in a very-- What do I want to say? We're on a precipice politically in America and throughout the world. The world has not not been here before. However, I don't know, it's simply because we're living through it and it's not in the past. We're not watching documentaries about it that are in black and white. We're here, and it's in full color, and we're seeing it unfold before us. It's very scary. I think that the more people are able to communicate, the better things are.

However, a lot of that communication, because of technology, is polluted, distorted, and unreal. What we've lost is a sense of what's real and what isn't real because of where we are technologically. That will obviously affect us emotionally and on the ground. Does this speak to what's happening now? Yes, it does, but I don't think it tries to signal anything.

Alison Stewart: That was part of my conversation with Conclave actor Stanley Tucci, who plays Cardinal Bellini, and director Edward Berger. The film is now streaming on Amazon Prime.