Alison Stewart: This is All of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. We want to acknowledge the passing of the great Malcolm-Jamal Warner at the age of 54. According to the AP, he drowned in Costa Rica while on vacation with his family. Best known for playing Theo Huxtable in The Cosby Show, Warner also brought his directing talents to the screen, where he aimed to take roles and to tell stories that depicted Black Americans in fully fleshed out, complicated and positive ways.

In addition to his film and TV work, Warner also looked to other mediums to share his thoughts, including music and poetry, which he said gave him some freedom to share his most authentic voice away from the gatekeepers and greenlighters of Hollywood. In 2015, Malcolm-Jamal Warner won a Grammy with Robert Glasper Experiment in the traditional R and B category. Here he is with Glasper, Lalah Hathaway from the song Jesus Children.

[MUSIC - Robert Glasper Experiment: Jesus Children]

It will come to pass

Cries of young lives sing silly songs of laughter in the life after

Hurt, ego, and misguided pride which lead to lies the soul can no longer stand to bear

But I see twenty children standing there beaming bright in angel light as they take flight

Together they smile the type sunlight that makes the devil backtrack into his lair

Yeah, these young souls are soothsayers, spiritual players

Accelerated graduators of this game called life

Spitting sixteens making Biggie breakdance and Frankie seem like Lalah's dad

With ten thousand other souls watching true love withhold nothing

Alison Stewart: Then in 2020, his own album, Hiding in Plain View, was nominated for best spoken word poetry record. He joined me on the show to talk about it when that was released, and I started by asking him to talk about how poetry came to be a part of his life.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: I've been around poetry my entire life. My dad went to Lincoln University with Gil Scott-Heron and Brian Jackson. My dad went to Lincoln because Langston went to Lincoln. I was steeped in poetry in the womb [laughs] when I was-- I know one of my favorite books was Poems on the Life and Death of Malcolm X. I remember taking-- I would take that book to school and put it on my desk, and kids would tease me and they go, "Hey, what? Somebody wrote a book about you? Hahahaha." It occurred to me, wow, none of these people know who Malcolm X is. If they are reading poetry, they're not reading poetry as sophisticated as what I'm reading. This was elementary school.

My dad was really instrumental in not just the poetry and the arts, but making sure that I was connected to from whence I came. I used to go see him on my summer vacations. He had this book, Great American Negroes, and chapters on Langston, Richard Wright, Mary McLeod Bethune, Marian Anderson. He would make me read these chapters and write book reports. This is during my summer vacation where I'm 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years old. It wasn't until being in class and the Malcolm X book incident that it finally registered what my dad was doing. He was filling me up with a connection with my history, and he had been doing it through the arts.

Alison Stewart: So interesting you say that. You just made me remember, when I was cleaning out my late mother's home, I found a book Langston Hughes signed to her when she was young.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Wow.

Alison Stewart: It's just one of those moments. I know, right? It's an "oh, wow" moment. It's just one of these prized possessions. You realize, to me, that is one of hearing Langston Hughes poetry. I know she always loved it, but I never knew that she actually had gotten a book signed by him.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: That's awesome.

Alison Stewart: What was the first poem that you shared that you shared publicly?

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Wow. Oh, that's great. It wasn't until I was in my early 20s, I might have been like 23. It was the-- Though I had always written poetry, this was the first time I was introduced to a venue where people were actually reading their poetry in front of other people. I remember going to this place in LA, it was called Juke Joint. I remember Jada Pinkett was reading a poem, Tichina Arnold was reading a poem. All these women were reading poems, but their poems were all male bashing poems.

Alison Stewart: Oh, no.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: My buddy and I, we're like, "Man, we're going to go write a piece and come back next week and do a piece." I wrote this piece called My Woman, and it was about the woman side of how relationships go awry. We can be responsible for things as well. I wrote the poem and I went and I did the poem. What, I guess, so-- just what hit me was, of course, all the guys are like, "Yes, yes, right. Even the women were like, "F--"

Alison Stewart: Sometimes.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: "Yes, you got a point there." It was the first experience for me realizing, "Oh, wow, what I'm writing actually resonates with other people. It's not just the guys because I'm saying guys point of view. It's like everyone is acknowledging what I consider my truth, but it seemed to be other people's truth as well.

Alison Stewart: What does writing a poem do for you personally, emotionally?

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Oh, it's an outlet that I didn't realize I needed until-- Again, I was in my mid-20s, and I was at a place where I had a couple experiences at that point that really hit home for me. The politics of this industry and recognizing, "If I keep all of my eggs in these two baskets, the acting and directing baskets, if that's all I do, this business is going to break my heart." It was through writing that I realized I needed that outlet. The writing and the music, being a bass player, it all allows me to express myself in ways that I can't as an actor or as a director. I have all these avenues of expression available to me, and I literally need them all.

Alison Stewart: And fewer gatekeepers.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Right?

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Because you can write a poem, you can create a piece of music, you can put it online, and people who need it will find it.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Yes. It's unencumbered by any record label executive telling me what I should be doing.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Malcolm-Jamal Warner. The name of the album is Hiding in Plain View. You've had other album before. Was there something particular you wanted to accomplish on this one or some particular goal or theme?

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Initially, it was-- the goal I was trying to accomplish was from a music perspective. I started the album during the pandemic, during the lockdown, and I wanted to put out a record that I produced myself. Of course, I work with great producers, but I often found myself in situations where I may defer to another producer because they're more experienced at this than I am, so of course, their idea is going to be better than mine. This time I was like, "Look, we're in a lockdown. I've been doing production myself anyway, but let me take it--" I produce stuff for other poets, but I was like, "Let me take this time and do the production myself, just to see and hear what that would sound like."

Not that that's what I would want to do moving forward, but at least it would make me more confident as a producer when I'm working with other producers. That's really what it-- That had really been the intent. I got close to finishing the record, and then I got cold feet. I was like, "Let me do a couple of more songs." Those songs never got done. It was easy to let life-

Alison Stewart: Sure.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: -get in the way of finishing it. It wasn't until the Grammys opened up the poetry category that I was like, "I've got to finish this record." As I was finishing the songs and putting the pieces together that I was going to do, I realized that just through all this time, I was writing a record that was a love letter to what on the surface seems like it's a love letter just to Black boys, but it's a love letter to everyone.

What I say about the record is this is a record for Black boys, for Black men, for Black people, and for non-Black people who have the foresight enough to see our self-healing as an invitation to explore their own necessary healing. To get responses from non-Black people who talk about how much of the album resonated with them makes me realize, "Ah, mission accomplished. It's a universally-themed album that everybody gets."

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to the track Dope, which I really like, which seems a bit autobiographical, a little bit confessional. Let's listen to the track, we'll talk about it on the other side. This is Malcolm-Jamal Warner.

[MUSIC - Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Dope]

Dope

Okay, so today's the day, okay

Okay, today's the day

Okay, today

Okay, so today, I declare my determination

I am done duck and dodging the dope description

Hoping humming hymns of humility would keep me humble

When really I've just been hunkered down

Hiding in the honeysuckled honeycomb of I've done that already

Often labeling myself as lazy but you know [blip] self deprecating

Homie. I've been hibernating honestly

And in all honesty, having a hard time honestly rating myself as top notch

Because honestly, there will always be someone more on top who doesn't have the fame

Or the 18 letter name that came from a literary red hustler from Lansing

And a prodigy pianist from Pittsburgh who changed his name to Ahmad when he found God.

Honestly, I find it odd to call myself God, I mean dope

Because in all honesty, I've always feared the few people who counter with no, no, no, no, no

I could be in full bloom in a full room full of fans who I prefer to call friends

And I'd gravitate to the odd one at the end who I know specifically is there to hate

I mean, you don't really have to be famous to relate, right?

How much love in your life have you overlooked and taken for granted

Simply because you couldn't stand it that the one you want to love from the most didn't love you the way you hoped?

It's like dope, right?

Addicted to what you can't have.

Alison Stewart: That's Malcolm-Jamal Warner. How do you decide how personal to get in poetry that you know a lot of people are going to hear? Or maybe you don't have a choice. Maybe the voice just speaks through you and that's that.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: That's really what it is. You sit down to write, and you always hear writers talk about, "Oh, God was just using me as the instrument. I was just the vessel." In a lot of cases, that really is the experience. It's like sitting down, letting the channel open, and what does the universe want me to say, or what's really on my heart? If I sit still long enough, it'll just come. Oftentimes, it's easy to busy ourself with so many things because we're avoiding sitting still and dealing with some things that we need to deal with.

Alison Stewart: I think that's what happened for a lot of people during the pandemic.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Yes, they had no choice.

Alison Stewart: They had no choice but to sit still and really think about their choices. Think about the choices their elected officials were making. Think about their choices at their workplace.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Their home life.

Alison Stewart: Home life. That too.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Yes, man.

Alison Stewart: Were you actually named after a piano prodigy?

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Ahmad Jamal? Yes.

Alison Stewart: Tell people about Ahmad Jamal.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Ahmad Jamal is a renowned jazz pianist and quite militant. Here's an instrumentalist where you can feel his militant vibes in his music. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: My guest is Malcolm-Jamal Warner. The name of the album is Hiding in Plain View. It is up for a Grammy. I want to play Black Fist Beautiful. It begins with this statement about hip hop's value as an art form. Whose voice is that?

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: That is Dr. Daniel Black. He is an award-winning novelist. He's also the assistant professor of African American studies at Clark Atlanta.

Alison Stewart: Then after his voice is a child's voice.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Yes, that's my daughter.

Alison Stewart: Ah, now, is that a, "Honey, come on in. Dad's making a record"? Or is she one of these people who's always underfoot and in your stuff?

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: That was a, "Honey, come on in." [laughter] I think because of that experience, now she's in my studio quite often touching stuff.

Alison Stewart: Let's hear a little bit.

[MUSIC - Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Black Fist Beautiful]

Black is beautiful

Black is beautiful

Black is so beautiful

Black is so beautiful

Sometimes my daughters see spirits in her sleep

I see boogeymen when I try

I close my eyes and see images of step and fetch it and Amos and Andy

Damn these visions that keep me awake at night

Visions like airplanes from above spraying the sky with ignorance like pesticide

And the repressive residential red lines make it too hard to hide for too

And all these beautiful Black bodies are scared

Because we don't know how bare we must become

Not to succumb to the heat of the hovering sun that keeps closing in

And aren't you tired of running for shade?

And aren't you tired of being hustled and played?

And aren't we all tired of crying about how hard it is to be Black in America?

Even if it looks like we've got it made

But freedom has its limits so here we are

Tear streaked and salt stained faces

Traces of trauma and pain lace our DNA

Like our Black pride is cut and laced with self hate

And we still think it's dope

Just like the music we're programmed to celebrate

Can you tell me the fates of a people

Who consciously take the bait and embrace the very traits

Placed upon them by their captors

Who by design are inclined to keep them believing they're second rate?

I'll wait.

Alison Stewart: That is Malcolm-Jamal Warner from the album Hiding in Plain View. I'm curious, you said earlier on about this industry possibly breaking your heart if you hadn't found the outlet of poetry. A lot of that portion we picked talks about a lot of the imagery we see and a lot of the language that we used. As you were coming up as an actor and as a performer, how often did you have to say no to roles because you're like, "Hmm."

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: That's been my whole career. Just coming from the experience of Cosby and everything that that show represented, I knew that I couldn't go from that and do work that would continue to perpetuate negative stereotypes of who we are. For a long time, I held judgment against actors who would take some of those roles that I turned down because they're going against the work we're trying to do. Then at some point, it occurred to me that everyone didn't necessarily have the financial wherewithal to turn work down. It made me really Grateful for that blessing and less judgmental because bills have to get paid.

It just made me, "Let me just focus on my work to be done. Don't focus on what other people are doing and how they feed their kids. Let me focus on my path and my lane and be grateful for the blessings that I have to be able to do the work that I do." I have to say that between the work that I've turned down, work that I have gone out for and didn't get, there have been longer stretches of unemployment than I may have liked. At the same time, everything that I have booked, every role that I have done, have all made up for the work that I didn't get. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: It's interesting. Do you remember that moment when you realized-- when you acknowledged your financial privilege? It's funny, sometimes we don't think about our privilege, and then suddenly we're like, "Oh, snap, I have that."

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: It's a constant reminder because it's something that's easy to take for granted. I think in being thoughtful and being mindful, which is something that I'm always striving to be, it's in those moments that I also get very grateful for my path.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Malcolm-Jamal Warner. The name of the album is Hiding in Plain View. When you think about the title, what does it mean to you?

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: I think about two things. What you hinted at the very beginning is how I've always seen how I live my life, hiding in plain view. I'm not the person who will walk into a room and be like, "Hey, I'm here." Just hang out and just be there. I know my presence, I know my aura, I know my vibration. I can just hang out and I'm just there. It's also like the temperament of a bass player. Bass is, they can be up front, but for the most part, they'll lay back and be the support. There's that. Then also the other angle of hiding in plain view is something that we all do, how we wear these masks and we hide parts of us because we're afraid someone else might not like us.

Alison Stewart: Paul Laurence Dunbar mask.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Just got to throw it in a poet. Continue on, sir.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Actually, I'm sure I thought about that when I was writing his poem, when I was writing that piece. That's just such a universal thing. It's something that I've done. The older I get, the more conscious I am of that, and being more comfortable in my own skin, and realizing that the more I can be comfortable in my skin and let my light shine, how much of an influence that can have on a young kid who's watching me, who is hiding parts of him. If you can see people who let their light shine, they're comfortable in their skin, you get exposed to those people enough, then you go, "Yes, it can be safe. It could be a safe place to just be me."

Alison Stewart: That was my conversation with actor, poet, and musician Malcolm-Jamal Warner, who died at age of 54. We're talking about his Grammy-nominated spoken word poetry album, Hiding in Plain View. Now let's go out on a track from the album. This is Master Magicians.

[MUSIC - Malcolm-Jamal Warner: Master Magicians]

Throw your hands in the air

Wave them like you just don't care

Throw your hands in the air

Wave them like you just don't care

Throw your hands in the air

Wave them like you just don't care

Throw your hands in the air

Wave them like you just don't care

Now keep them there