Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WYNC. I'm Alison Stewart. In her book The Quiet Damage, Jesselyn Cook investigates five families whose lives have been changed as a result of QAnon conspiracy theories. QAnon believes the world is being controlled by Satan worshipping pedophiles. Some believe that former President Donald Trump knows how to defeat it. The believers she follows in are diverse in race, background, and age. There's a successful lawyer who disowns her kids after they refuse to share her theories. There's a Black woman who teaches her kids to believe in Q and that the medical infrastructure in this country is a joke. There's an elderly woman who drives her husband away with her rampant Facebook posts. There's a Bernie Sanders supporter who nearly leaves her fiancé to follow Q. There's a man who puts his marriage in jeopardy by spending hours each day on QAnon sites. The book follows all five of these families as they feel their loved one is slipping away, and they do everything they can to stop it. It's titled The Quiet Damage: QAnon and the Destruction of the American Family. In it, Jesselyn Cook writes, "We need to confront the roots of our collective vulnerability because none of us are as immune as we'd like to think." Jesselyn Cook joined me as part of our book series Get Political, and we took calls from listeners. However, since this is an All Of It encore presentation, we won't be able to take your calls today. Jesselyn, you were a reporter for the investigative unit at NBC. When did you start to believe there was more to QAnon than you initially thought?

Jesselyn Cook: I think I was one of a handful of reporters who had been following QAnon before Americans knew what it was, when it was still this little fringe movement confined to weird spaces online. I had been watching along with interest, at first. It bubbled toward concern just ahead of the pandemic. In 2018, 2019, we started seeing them, QAnon believers, showing up at Trump rallies. We eventually started seeing signs that Donald Trump was aware of them and recognized that these followers represented a growing portion of his base. Of course, over COVID, over the pandemic, QAnon burst into almost a household name. It became such a big problem, and we were seeing it on late night talk shows, we were seeing Democrats talking about the threat it posed. It really kind of exploded from the fringes, poking into our mainstream political system, and ushering what were once wild falsehoods into really widespread concerns that people with no background in QAnon spaces were suddenly alarmed over.

Alison Stewart: How did you select your subjects for the book?

Jesselyn Cook: I had been writing more and more about QAnon. I ended up writing a long piece about children who were trying to de-radicalize their QAnon believing parents. That piece, I spoke to nine people who had QAnon parents. That piece really struck a chord with a lot of readers. I heard from hundreds of people from all over the country and beyond, writing to me with their own stories. When it came time for me to sit down and think about writing a book, I really had a lot of different types of stories to look through and to think about. The five I chose are just a small fraction of the people I spoke to for this book.

I interviewed hundreds of families across the country, but I wanted to push back on this emerging stereotype that QAnon believers, and conspiracy theorists more broadly, all fit a certain kind of mold, which was maybe White, conservative, baby boomer. These are, I think, kind of the characteristics summoned to mind by QAnon for a lot of people, and that's just absolutely not true. As you quoted my book earlier, really no one is immune to this kind of thinking. People from all different backgrounds are drawn in. I wanted to reflect that in the five individuals, five families I chose to profile in this book. They really do have entirely different walks of life and reflect that mosaic we see in a movement like QAnon.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. Frank is calling in from [unintelligible 00:04:47] Hi, Frank. Thank you so much for calling All Of It.

Frank: Hi. It's East Iceland, but either case. My mom's boyfriend, his son is a big QAnon proponent, and he basically disowned his father. He doesn't talk to my mom's boyfriend anymore, his father. He accused me of being a pedophile- or not being a pedophile, of following pedophiles because I was voting for Joe Biden back in 2020. I didn't know what this was. I had no idea what this QAnon stuff was until I started listening more about it on the news, and seeing it, reading about it. Now he wants to go off the grid, takes his two daughters and his wife with him against their will, probably. It's mind blowing because I had no idea this even existed. He was talking about pedophilia and stuff back in 2019, 2020, and I had no idea what was going on. But apparently it's really driving his life, and it's sad to see.

Alison Stewart: Thanks so much for calling, Frank. We're talking with Jesselyn Cook. Her book is called The Quiet Damage: QAnon and the Destruction of the American Family. How does a QAnon- how does it begin? What's the gateway to QAnon?

Jesselyn Cook: There are so many gateways, and that has really been a remarkable thing about this conspiracy theory is that it has woven its tentacles into so many different communities. I think a lot of people got into QAnon over the pandemic because of health-related concerns. There were people who were alarmed about the vaccine, had concerns about it, and QAnon really took advantage of these information voids that we had at that time. Scientists were rushing to study COVID, this coronavirus, never seen before in humans. They were trying to get information out to the public, and people don't like to wait for answers. QAnon rushed in and filled that void with its own version of narratives, and it really spoke to different fears held by different people from different backgrounds, and twisted brains of truth into much scarier things.

Some people are drawn in by health mis and disinformation. Other people are drawn in- like what it sounded like, Frank's mom's boyfriend's son, concerns about children. That's why we hear so much about pedophilia, is QAnon really speaks to parents by speaking about real, or exaggerated, or fabricated threats to children and trying to play into this idea that we all have that. We want to stand for children. We want children to be safe and healthy. Really, there are so many entryways into this and it's still very hard to get out.

Alison Stewart: I want to swing back to the COVID idea because so many people became radicalized during the pandemic. There seems to be a correlation between distrust of the medical establishment and a belief in QAnon or distrust of the government and a belief in QAnon. I'm wondering, is it a mistrust of government and certain leaders that leads people to this?

Jesselyn Cook: Yes, it absolutely is. QAnon, its messaging and similar conspiracy theory movements really do try to create this binary of us versus them. Them is really any body of power. It's the powers that be, so to speak. Whether that is the government, the leaders in Hollywood, the billionaires, the real estate tycoons. People in power versus the everyday man. By seeding this righteous anger in people that these powerful beings, these powerful entities are out to get you, it can create this rage and this desire for justice that can be really- they can find a home in a place like QAnon. QAnon really opens its arms and tries to welcome in people with this idea that they can be part of a better world. They can fight for the so-called "Great Awakening," which is QAnon's promise that the deep state or all the bad guys are going to be brought to their knees and we will have prosperity for all.

Alison Stewart: Here's a text. "My music partner got drawn into this and the rift he caused continues. I tried to call him out with challenges backed by facts, but he wouldn't hear of it." Another text reads, "My friend's mother has ripped apart their whole family. Suspicion, hatred of her gay son, suddenly refusing to go to his wedding. All four adult siblings are in pain." Did the family members you spoke to, did they anticipate something like this, the people in the book?

Jesselyn Cook: In some cases, I think QAnon was an ending that made sense for some folks. There's a family in the book where one guy already was a Trump supporter. He was into MAGA stuff. He was a Christian evangelical. He fit a lot of characteristics that I think people have come to associate with conspiracy theory belief. But in other cases, absolutely not. There was the former Bernie Sanders supporter who made her way all the way over to the far right in QAnon. It can be really unexpected. I think for a lot of families, it's hard for them to understand because they'll say, this person is really intelligent, they're really educated, they're really kind, they're really decent. What is it about QAnon that could possibly appeal to them? How is it that these obvious falsehoods are getting past their critical thinking skills?

I think a common misconception, and maybe the caller who just texted you speaking about why fact-checking didn't work on their music partner is I think a lot of people trying to help loved ones who have gone down these rabbit holes are trying to appeal to their logic, are trying to appeal to their intelligence. I would argue that's really not what's at play here. I think what makes someone vulnerable to these wild, outlandish conspiracy theories is not necessarily a low IQ. In fact, I'm certain of that. Many people in my book are very intelligent.

It's that they have some kind of unfulfilled human need that conspiracy theories satisfy for them. Maybe it's a sense of community. Maybe it's a sense of agency, a sense of purpose, these things that really make us feel whole. You're most vulnerable to this kind of disinformation not because you're stupid or a moron or these other labels that get thrown around, but because something in your life is not going well, and in some ways these conspiracy theories are like a crutch.

Alison Stewart: Something that came from your book was the idea of isolation. What role do you think isolation plays in attracting people to QAnon?

Jesselyn Cook: QAnon especially, really gained a lot of ground over COVID because, yes, a lot of people were very isolated. They were stuck at home, they couldn't even go to work. They were spending a lot of time on the Internet. QAnon, for all of its many, many flaws and vices, it is a community that's very welcoming to people who want to believe. I think a lot of elderly folks who have gotten into QAnon, for some of them, a lot of people like to assume that they're so called digital immigrants. They didn't grow up with social media, so they don't know how to navigate it. They fall for hoaxes, which is certainly true to some extent. But I think isolation for that demographic plays an even bigger role.

We do have a loneliness crisis or a loneliness epidemic, as some experts are calling it, in America. A lot of older folks are living by themselves into old age with little family there. QAnon, even for one character in my book, it becomes her job, her self-appointed job in retirement. She gets to show up online every day, engage with this community that welcomes her, and feels like she's not an old lady per se, but one of the good guys fighting the good fight against this big evil, a common enemy. It really does make you feel like you matter, like you have a reason, purpose, a raison d'etre, and you belong.

Alison Stewart: We'll have more after a quick break. This is All Of It. This is All Of It on QNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Jesselyn Cook. The name of her book is The Quiet Damage: QAnon and the Destruction of the American Family as part of our Get Political book series. QAnon is associated with racist belief, antisemitic beliefs. Yet you profile a woman named Kendra who becomes really wrapped up in QAnon. You write, "Black Americans as well as Hispanics were in fact statistically more likely than their White counterparts to believe in QAnon's central claims." What do we know about this?

Jesselyn Cook: Yes, that was really almost shocking data for me to come across as well. Kendra, a Black mother who grew up facing extreme hardship and poverty and racism, her story was a difficult one for me to unpack because these conspiracy theories, QAnon and other ones like it, they so often villainize marginalized communities. It's hard to understand how they could also attract members of these communities. But I think what's important to remember is conspiracy theories really demand a sense of powerlessness and a sense of distrust, and we can be conditioned to feel a sense of powerlessness.

Even the most privileged person, one of the characters in my book, a very wealthy White lawyer. She has arguably a pretty great life. She has a lot of money. She lives very comfortably. Yet, through the rhetoric she would hear on Tucker Carlson, she was convinced slowly that she was powerless. That the powers that be were out to get her, that they were taking away everything she cared for. She was primed for something like QAnon. Whereas people like Kendra, who grew up with essentially nothing, she actually had a really legitimate reason to feel powerless. Black Americans for generations, for centuries, centuries, have been mistreated- a gentle word- by our government and have very, very valid reasons to hold onto this distrust, to feel this powerlessness. For Kendra, QAnon really preyed on those valid feelings and twisted them and gradually ushered her into an echo chamber, which was difficult for her sister.

Her sister is- she went into racial justice activism, whereas Kendra went into QAnon, which is arguably a Qhite supremacist movement. That was really hard to understand how those sisters took such divergent paths. But one other thing that QAnon did for kendra, in a really weird kind of way, was it it gave her a sense of hope. I think when she would look at her life and she would look at all this injustice and the hardship she faced, if she had to look and say, how could I fix this? How could I fix systemic racism that is causing all these challenges in my life that others don't face that feel unconquerable to her in her lifetime. But QAnon points to this one handy enemy, the deep state, and says, we can take this down. We are going to bring about the great awakening, and your life will get better. I think that was a really comforting narrative for her.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Dana calling from Rockaway Beach. Hi, Dana. Thanks for calling in.

Dana: Hi. Yes. My stepdad believes in QAnon or is part of it. How ever, we want to word that. The way that it's kind of affected me is that he'll call me and be very concerned and paranoid. The most recent call I got from him was how bad things are happening and I need to make sure that I have a go bag and there's always gas in my tank. If he says for me to leave, then I need to leave immediately and to go back to Pennsylvania where my mom lives. He's just gotten very worried and paranoid and just has definitely delved deeper into that realm of just like, all these bad things are going to happen and he is going to be able to help us. That, for some reason here in New York, people aren't talking about it, but where he is, they are.

Alison Stewart: Dana, have you tried to talk to him about it? Talk to him about the reality?

Dana: Yes. I live in New York, and I've lived here for 16 years. One of the things that I've tried to guide him is it's really hard to- you can't really argue with him about it, to be honest. He just gets agitated and says, I'm not listening to him and will hang up. I've taken a different stance where I was like, well, who are these people that you would trust to tell you this? I have friends who are cops and firefighters, and like, why aren't they talking about this? They don't seem concerned. That aspect to see that it's not as scary and threatening as he thinks it is. It doesn't really go very far, to be honest.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for sharing your story. We really appreciate this. I got a text that says, "I lost a close friend, business partner to QAnon. She is a funny, kind, educated person who was isolated and was brainwashed by her husband. I love her, but we can't really be friends or work together. She's a nurse who lost her job during COVID for refusing to wear a mask or get vaccinated. I read that it's helpful to remind people like this of past good times. Normal, everyday photos of us with our kids." Thank you for calling in. Jesselyn, how do people feel about the word 'Brainwashed'? Is that an accurate term? What do you think of that term?

Jesselyn Cook: I think if you're using it with a loved one who's gone down the ideological rabbit hole, it's probably going to come across as offensive and not as a helpful term. But I do hear it a lot. When loved ones will talk to me about their family member who's gone into QAnon, they say it's like this person I knew has been brainwashed into a stranger. It really does feel like they're still there, they're still in the same body, but it's a different person. Maybe they're not just delusional, but hateful. That's the really heartbreaking part of this is people not only latch onto these "Crazy ideas," but they find a lot of antisemitism down there. They find a lot of just irrational anger toward different marginalized groups. It's really, I think, maybe the most painful part for people who know and love them to see them, as you say, get brainwashed.

One of the most challenging parts of this, I think, i the question of accountability. In the book we have this character, Adam, whose mother gets into QAnon and really starts latching onto some really antisemitic racist ideas. Adam has to grapple with this like, is this being done to her or by her? Is she being brainwashed by these influencers on the internet who are trying to make money off of her? Is she being stuck down these rabbit holes against her will or is this a series of conscious decisions she's making? Is she now a racist, hateful person? It tears at him for a long time. Is she being brainwashed or is this just who she is now?

Alison Stewart Let's talk to Jackie from Fairfield, Connecticut. Hi, Jackie, thank you so much for calling in.

Jackie: Hi, thanks for taking my call. Very interested in this topic because my younger sister was at the insurrection on January 6, and we have not spoken since then. The only time we did speak was when my brother got sick this winter, but it was only one phone call, no politics. Other than that, she knows I'm a staunch Democrat, and because of that, she will not speak to me. I do believe that it's been the influence of the politics, QAnon, whatever they believe in. There's just no convincing her otherwise. It's a very sad situation.

Alison Stewart: Jackie, are you worried about her?

Jackie: I am not worried about her. I'm just concerned that she will not believe what is really the truth. She's convinced that her way is the right way. She became a born again Christian also. I think that ties in with it a little bit. In fact, they are looking for something to hang on to, and I think QAnon presents that to them. Like your author had said.

Alison Stewart: Jackie, thank you so much for sharing your family's story. Let's talk to Smriti calling in from Raleigh on line six. Hi, Smriti.

Smriti: Hi. Thanks for this. I actually have a question and a comment. Well, the question is for the author, which is in her research, did she find Indians? Specifically Indians in America, obviously. Are they more susceptible to this? What did she find in terms of the race demographic? My comment is this story is bang-on because during COVID we actually were friends with a family. Both the husband and wife were doctors. But once COVID started and then people started talking about vaccines and masks, it was really strange to see them become COVID deniers and literally spout right wing talking points. The fact is these are Indians. These are highly educated. These people have successful business practices. How, and like, we couldn't believe it. Unfortunately, we had to cut off ties with them because it was so damaging to our families, to our children involved to listen to all of this. So curious to hear the author's thoughts about this.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in. She was interested in the breakdown of QAnon believers and supporters and if you found any stories of Indians, Indian Americans who are susceptible.

Jesselyn Cook: Smriti, thank you for calling, and I did speak to one Indian family. They're actually an Indian Canadian family based just outside Toronto. The father of that household had gone really deep into QAnon and there wasn't any indication that his QAnon beliefs had anything to do with his Indian background. He was also drawn in by vaccine- he believed that, that the vaccine was Bill Gates' attempt to kill us all, as many people have found those beliefs. But it is, I think, worth repeating and an interesting devastating point that it isn't just he stereotypical White MAGA folks who are getting into these belief systems. It really- parts of these conspiracy theories really do call to people from so many different walks of life, so many different backgrounds. I think it's worth kind of sharing some of these stories and thinking about, again, our collective vulnerability. What is it that is speaking to different people in different ways? Because I think if we try to push off QAnon as this monolithic group that we can just ignore and laugh at and kind of as maybe we did for A while early in the pandemic, this problem just kind of curdles. You may not hear the word QAnon as much anymore today, as we used to even a couple of years ago. But these beliefs, as you said, really haven't gone anywhere. They've just started blending in and popping up in really unexpected ways and luring in people from really different parts of this country and different ideas and political views even. I'm sorry to hear about your story and I am grateful for your question.

Alison Stewart: What role might QAnon or conspiracy theories be playing in the current election?

Jesselyn Cook: This is where I mean about these ideas blending in. Do we hear QAnon making headlines as much? No, we don't. But we absolutely are feeling the impact of these conspiracy theories in even more insidious and harmful ways. Even this fear mongering over pedophilia and child trafficking, which are of course very real issues, but they have been distorted and exaggerated and weaponized in really gruesome ways. Even the word pedophile has just become an empty insult lobbed against your political enemies. We've even seen Donald Trump implied that Ron DeSantis might be a pedophile when they were potentially gunning against each other.

It's just become a normalized process. Even some of the other dialogues we've seen about the so-called trans agenda or this idea that teachers are trying to turn children gay in their classrooms, all of these kinds of narratives. We've seen this play out in American history before, but QAnon really gave teeth to these of delusional ideas again, and this fear mongering and made it almost like an acceptable way for politicians to try to rally their bases. It's really vile. And it's, again, I just come back to this word 'normalized.' It's just blending in.

Alison Stewart: That was part of my conversation with investigative reporter Jesselyn Cook. Her book is titled The Quiet Damage. Coming up, we'll learn how male podcasters are a key ingredient of the Trump Vance media strategy. Hear why some Latinos have moved to the far right, and we'll also talk with two people who have dedicated their lives to abortion care even before Roe v. Wade. We will get to all of it, and I will meet you on the other side of the news. [unintelligible 00:26:39]

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