Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. A new series from HBO documents the wild, wonderful world of professional bowling. It's a world of grit, fierce competition, colorful personalities, and memeable moments like this victory celebration.

Speaker 2: That is why I stood at number five. Are you kidding me? That's right. Who do you think you are, Ryan?

Alison Stewart: Born to Bowl follows a group of pro bowlers competing against each other on the Professional Bowling Association Tour, the major league for 10-pin bowling. New episodes air on HBO on Mondays. The series directors, James Lee Hernandez and Brian Lazarte, join me now. Nice to meet you.

James Lee Hernandez: Nice to meet you. Thanks for having us.

Brian Lazarte: Thanks so much.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, are you a bowling fan? What's your place to bowl? Have you ever bowled competitively, or do you follow the sport? You can text us now or call us at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. James, the last documentary the two of you made was McMillions about McDonald's monopoly promotion scam in the 1990s. Then you directed The Big Conn for Apple TV+. How did you find yourself going from scam artist to bowlers?

James Lee Hernandez: The thing that we're always fascinated with are just these worlds that you think you know, but when you pull back the curtain, it's something totally different. We're always fascinated by just great characters. You can kind of take the story concept of how we approach just looking at a specific world or instance and apply that to almost anything. It's not just true crime related, like with this, we did sports, we produced the Lolla: The Story of Lollapalooza, a three-part series. We worked with director Michael John Warren on exploring that. Really, taking something that you think you know a specific way and then showing you the 360 view of what it's actually like is what we get excited for.

Alison Stewart: Brian, you told Decider that this series is "the antithesis of Drive to Survive," the F1 docuseries. How did you want this documentary about sports to be different?

Brian Lazarte: Bowling is one of those really unique sports in which the professional athletes that are out there doing it, they don't make any money unless they win. Compared to F1 drivers, who, even if they don't win, they have nice homes and they make a decent living. For bowlers, they're out there paving their own way. It's a four-month season where they're on the road, and they are putting money down for Airbnbs, hotel rooms, their meals, and if they don't win, they're coming home empty-handed. Every week, that pull gets deeper and deeper.

Alison Stewart: Brian, we're going to try to fix your audio. It's a little funky, so I'll talk to James for a little bit.

Brian Lazarte: Okay.

Alison Stewart: James-

Brian Lazarte: I'll switch.

Alison Stewart: -you got Liev Schreiber to narrate the series. He also narrates HBO's Hard Knocks. Why was his voice the right one?

James Lee Hernandez: We had gone through a lot of different iterations of who could possibly do it. Everything from looking at actors that were in classic bowling movies like Bill Murray, to even the idea of having Ben Stiller do it. The problem was we need to take all of this seriously. We can let funny moments be funny and quirky things be quirky, but at no point do we want to feel like we're making fun of them. You sort of need how Leslie Nielsen was basically the same serious actor that he was in movies, in Airplane!. We needed that. We needed to be grounded in reality.

Liev, just the weight of his voice and the history of what he's done really lended itself to us to. When people watch this, immediately they're like, "Oh, wow, this is like a real thing. This is serious if we hear the voice of God that we're used to in Hard Knocks explaining what's going on in bowling." The thing about Liev is he's also a phenomenal actor. He was able to lean into the fun and the funny without going too far.

Alison Stewart: Brian, let's see if you can hear us.

Brian Lazarte: I can hear you. How do I sound?

Alison Stewart: You sound great. You sound fantastic.

Brian Lazarte: Beautiful.

Alison Stewart: I'm glad to hear it. I want to point out that we're talking specifically about 10-pin bowling here. How many different kinds of bowling are there, and why did you specifically focus on 10-pin bowling?

Brian Lazarte: The thing about 10-pin bowling is we've all done it, right? We've all gone bowling. We all have a story, whether as a kid going to a birthday party, or weekend afternoon fun, or evening fun. The great mystery to us was the world of professional bowling, because as much of it is very similar to what you've done at birthday parties, the level of difficulty and seriousness goes to a whole other level, the amount of bowling these guys have to do.

One of the unique things that we present in our series is the fact that these bowlers are competing on oil patterns. It's one of the things that was a great discovery to us that there's an invisible layer that gets put on the lanes in professional bowling. There are multiple different patterns, and they're essentially obstacles. They change every time that ball rolls down the lane, and it makes it harder and harder, which adds to the level of difficulty for all these bowlers.

Alison Stewart: That blew my mind. I love this job because I learn something new every day, but the idea that the wax and the oil on the floor is kind of what they're competing against?

Brian Lazarte: Yes. It's the greatest obstruction because they can't see it, and it changes. When they compete, they also go from lane to lane to lane, so they can't even see what they call oil transitioning on the lanes. Once they find it, though, that's when they can really dial it in, and they can really get high scores. You see it. A lot of the bowlers talk about, "I could see the transitions," then their scores just skyrocket.

Alison Stewart: I'm speaking to James Lee Hernandez and Brian Lazarte, co-directors of the HBO docuseries Born to Bowl. Hey, listeners, if you want to call in and tell us you're a bowling fan and tell us why, our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We'd love to talk to you if you've ever bowled competitively. James, let's play a clip from this series. It features pro bowlers EJ Tackett and Belmo. Can you tell us about these guys?

James Lee Hernandez: I can. EJ Tackett has been the hottest bowler over the last four years, and he has gone on a run that is almost unprecedented. He's won three players of the year in a row. If he wins this year, it'd be the first time anybody has won four in a row. He was preceded by Jason Belmonte, also known as Belmo. Belmo is basically like the dominance of Tiger Woods during his heyday. Belmo did that in bowling. He's won five more majors than any other bowler in history. He's won more than anybody in history. He's so impactful that he actually changed how the game is played because he was really the first bowler to bowl two-handed effectively.

Before that, everybody bowled one-handed. There might have been one or two randoms, but he was so dominant that now over 50% of new bowlers all bowl two-handed. He was so good to the point where people tried to get him disqualified because he just was so dominant.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen. Belmo speaks first, and then we'll hear EJ. This is from Born to Bowl.

Belmo: In the third frame, I left a 10-pin on a shot that I thought was pretty much perfect. Your mind is racing. Do you slow down? Do you speed up? Do you change ball? Do you change your target? There's so many different possibilities. Whatever you do, you get one crack at it. In a 10-frame game, that's 10% of your game. You make two wrong decisions, that's a fifth of your title match. That is bad.

EJ Tackett: Oh, Jason.

Commentator: Almost got away with it.

EJ Tackett: I started off with four consecutive strikes, and in the fifth, I threw one. Not so great. This basically ties our match back up.

Commentator: Chance for Belmo to take the lead.

EJ Tackett: Gives Jason the opportunity to throw some punches.

Belmo: I looked at all my equipment, I looked at all my possible answers, and I was thinking, "Do you make that change and really, really risk it?"

Alison Stewart: Brian, what was the most exciting part about learning about bowling? Watching bowling, what's the most exciting thing about it to you?

Brian Lazarte: Oh, boy. Along with the oil patterns and just the uniqueness of the sport, I mean, the fact that these guys are out there, like we said earlier, just painting their own way, that blew our mind because you realize the stakes that are involved. A lot of these guys who work side jobs or day jobs really look at this time to cross that threshold. One of the bowlers that we followed this last year for our season was a rookie. Seeing that progression, just like, okay, you're finally making that leap into the ranks of the professionals, and you realize just like, "Oh, wait, this is going to be really, really, really hard."

Everyone who does this, and we featured really in the season, the men, but even some of the women that we've had a chance to meet on the side have been incredible at illustrating just how important this is to them. They live for it. They really do.

Alison Stewart: We're talking about Born to Bowl. We'll have more after a quick break. This is All Of It.

[music]

Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. I'm speaking with co-directors James Lee Hernandez and Brian Lazarte. Their new HBO docuseries is called Born to Bowl. James, the first bowler we meet is Kyle Troup, also known as "The Pro with the Fro." His dad was a pro bowler who was also Famous for wearing these bright pants. How would you describe the fashion sense of these bowlers?

James Lee Hernandez: The fashion sense definitely has evolved. Early on in the '50s and '60s, it was very serious, almost like business casual in the day, collared shirts, all of that. Guppy Troup really helped break that whole idea of wearing these crazy colored pants and really being out there and understanding that this is a sport for show. People watch it on TV, there's fans there, and he played it up to the crowd rather than being the more serious version of bowlers that we'd seen traditionally.

Another person who then took the flamboyance to a new level was Pete Weber with both his antics and his clothing. It's interesting because bowling shirts, especially now, have come back into fashion. It was really big in the '90s when Swingers, that movie came out. Now that is sort of repeated. The idea of fashion and bowling have always merged together to be part of Americana.

Alison Stewart: Brian, Kyle Troup, "The Pro with the Fro." Imagine Bob Ross bowling in bright pants. He started when he was just 15 years old. Have all of these guys been training since they were kids?

Brian Lazarte: Well, not all of them, but those who have are the elite bowlers that you're seeing today. What's unique about the bowlers we followed, EJ Tackett, Belmo, both of their parents owned bowling alleys, so they started when they were barely able to even walk. Kyle Troup, "Pro with the Fro," his parents were married in a bowling alley. His mom was pregnant with him, so he said he was destined for the bowling alley beforehand. It does highlight, like they've made it their life ever since they were kids.

Alison Stewart: James, we got a text that said, "My only sports injury was from bowling. I pulled my bicep right off the bone. Boy, do I miss bowling." It's hard to say that after you hear that. Do they sustain injuries? How do they deal with injuries?

James Lee Hernandez: They do sustain injuries. First of all, that sounds pretty brutal. With bowling, you got to think that you are continually throwing a 15-pound ball down the lanes. These guys will play all week. You'll see on TV the two-hour live show, but they start bowling to qualify on Tuesday, and Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, they're bowling all day, just to get to the point of making the show. It's kind of like a picture of the repetitive motion thing of elbows and shoulders and your core.

Anthony Simonsen, who's one of our five that we're following this season, he tweaked his back because you're twisting so much. There is just a lot of things from the amount of times that they are throwing bowling balls that can happen.

Alison Stewart: Brian, the docuseries features a handful of professional bowlers all competing in the Professional Bowlers Association Tour. How big a deal is this tour in the bowling community?

Brian Lazarte: It's hard to say. It's like the Super Bowl because it's multiple, multiple events. There's 19 events, 5 majors. They have five chances to win up to $100,000. Other than that, all the smaller tournaments that are spread throughout the country can be anywhere from $20 to $30,000. If they win multiple, that's where it really makes something. It's the upper echelon. There's a lot of other events, leagues, and ways of making money, but the PBA Tour is the top brass.

Alison Stewart: I wanted to echo something that you said when your audio wasn't that great. These folks are doing it to make money for their families.

Brian Lazarte: That is correct. Yes, yes. The only way they make money is if they win. They're putting money up for Airbnbs, for hotels every single week that they're out on the road. Gas money, because they have to drive from location to-- They can't fly with 24 bowling balls. The cost of that would be so expensive. When they're on the road, they're betting on themselves to win. If they win, what comes with that are sponsors, which actually make it even better. If they don't win, then it just hurts. Then they're just in the hole, and they got to financially recoup. It's a tremendous respect for the gamble that they all bet on themselves to be in that upper echelon.

Alison Stewart: We learned that bowling has a list of insider language and a lot of jargon, we'll say. James, what's your favorite bowling term that you've heard?

James Lee Hernandez: I don't know. There's a tie for me. Growing up, bowling with everybody, you wanted to get a turkey. That's three strikes in a row. If you got that, at least when I was a kid, I thought I was going to be a pro bowler if that happened. What we learned is that there's four-bagger, five-bagger, six-bagger. That's more strikes in a row if you get four or five or six in a row. I always just think it sounds funny because it almost sounds like an Italian mafia term. Like, I got a five-bagger. Like, who knows what that means? Could mean five bodies in the trunk, but it just means five strikes in a row.

Alison Stewart: What about for you, Brian? What's your favorite bowling term that you learned?

Brian Lazarte: Other than repeating what James just said, hearing about a four-bagger, five-bagger, those are fun terminologies. Honestly, still to this day, they tell us terminology, and we're just like, "Where did you come up with that?" We try to lean into some of the absurdity of the humor surrounding bowling in our series. This is definitely one of those highlight moments. We kind of attribute it to watching a medical drama if you're out in the lanes for the first time.

The thing is, you can come into the series and not know anything about bowling and enjoy watching these guys compete. That's what we wanted to do. We weren't making a show just for bowlers. We were making a show about these real people that just happen to be bowling. They're fun, and they're funny, and the sport itself just has-- I mean, the whole spirit of the sport is about fun, and it's also about normalizing failure.

James Lee Hernandez: I do have to throw in, because we're on WNYC, is that there's a term called Brooklyn. If you go to Brooklyn, that means you aimed for one side of the pins and you actually hit it on the other side of the pins and still got a strike.

Alison Stewart: Makes sense to me.

James Lee Hernandez: It's the other side of the tracks.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] I'm talking to co-directors of Born to Bowl. It's an HBO docuseries. James Lee Hernandez and Brian Lazarte. They are my guests. Our texts are blowing up. It says, "Growing up, I bowled weekly with my family. Was in a family league and everything. This has great Saturday memories of watching bowling on ABC Wild World of Sports as a teen in the '70s." This asks a question. "Does the series touch on the disappearance of independently-owned lanes?"

James Lee Hernandez: That we actually don't necessarily touch on. We do go over, in general, how bowling really started in general, like the history of it all the way back to Egypt, and then how it came to America and how it became very popular. In our last episode, we really talk about the relationship between bowling and the rise of television and how they helped each other out in so many different ways. Part of that is understanding how this is really woven into the fabric of Americana, like I was talking about with the clothing, pop culture, and movies and TV shows. We do talk about that overall, but we didn't get too much into that. I mean, they're 30-minute episodes, and it's a lot to cram in.

Alison Stewart: Brian, there's a bowler who goes by Simo, and he's kind of a hothead, the way he is introduced to the audience. Then we see Cameron, who's the rookie, describes him as an older brother, which I thought was really interesting. What did you want to emphasize with those two sides of him?

Brian Lazarte: Anthony Simonsen or Simo, when he's on the lane, he's a beast. He is one of the most impressive bowlers out there. The fact that he self-proclaimed hothead at times, it's a mental sport, and they really battle themselves on the lanes, and it comes across. There's no filter to hide behind, and it was one of the great things that all of these bowlers gave us, which was an unfiltered view of what it's like, and we wanted to highlight just how dramatic it can be sometimes on the lane.

The truth is, Simo off the lanes is one of the kindest, sweetest, nicest guys you could ever meet. Any fan that's ever come up to him, and hopefully our Episode 2, which you see him getting a little heated, doesn't discourage any fan from coming up and getting his autograph, because he will give you so much extra time, he will make sure to let you know how much he cares about all the fans out there. All these guys were great. When Cam says he was like a big brother, it's because he's been out there, and he was this prominent rookie. He was the first to ever win a major. He was one of those guys that every rookie looks up to to say, "Okay, you did it. How can I have my rookie year look like yours?"

Alison Stewart: In our last moments, James, what do you hope people will come away from this series thinking and feeling about bowling?

James Lee Hernandez: In general, that it is something that is fun to do. That it is kind of remembering all of the great highlights over the years of, as Brian mentioned, like birthday parties, get-togethers, things like that. It is a great sport that almost anybody can do, and you can do for fun with friends and family and all of that. Then, understanding in the professional ranks just how hard all of these guys are working, and that it really is the blue collar sport of understanding that this isn't like F1 or pro athletes that make millions of dollars no matter what, that these guys are really pulling their bootstraps up and making it happen every single week to try and provide for their families. That just creates amazing drama that's intimate and really exciting to follow.

Alison Stewart: It's a really good series. It's on HBO. It's called Born to Bowl. I've been speaking with its co-directors, James Lee Hernandez and Brian Lazarte. Thanks for being with us.

Brian Lazarte: It's a real pleasure. Thank you so much.

James Lee Hernandez: Thanks.

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