Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in Soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. Coming up on the show today, musician and artist Julian Lennon. His new exhibition of photographs opens today at the Freeman Gallery in Chelsea. He joins us in studio to talk about it. Actor Betty Gilpin is here to talk about her turn as the deranged wife of President Lincoln in the hilarious Broadway play Oh, Mary!. We'll learn about the novel Mutual Interests, which follows three queer would be business moguls in late Gilded Age New York.

That is our plan, so let's get things started with Dark Winds.

[music]

Alison Stewart: The TV series Dark Winds, a slow burn thriller set in 1970s Navajo country, has been critically acclaimed on AMC network for two seasons. Recently it was added to Netflix and it took on a second life, becoming a hit on the streamer last fall. This Sunday, the series returns to AMC for a third season. The show follows three very different members of the Navajo police, Lieutenant Leaphorn, a serious man with a big heart, Jim Chee, a former FBI guy who has seen the light, and the super sharp Bernadette Manuelito.

Season three has some changes in store. By the way, Dark Winds has a perfect score on Rotten Tomatoes, as in 100%. Joining us now is Zahn McClarnon, who plays Joe Leaphorn. Hi.

Zahn McClarnon: Hello.

Alison Stewart: Also, Jessica Matten, who plays Bernadette Manuelito. Hi.

Jessica Matten: Hi.

Alison Stewart: Kiowa Gordon, who plays Jim Chee. Hi, Kiowa.

Kiowa Gordon: Hi.

Alison Stewart: Hi. Zahn, this story takes place in the '70s. No CCTV, no cell phones, no DNA. The area is so remote, sometimes you have to ride your horses in. How does the period that this is set in help you with your character?

Zahn McClarnon: Well, first off, the land itself is to all tribes, to all nations, native nations, it's very sacred. It's the basis of our culture, so that adds quite an element. Dark Winds being set on the Navajo reservation, it's extremely important for that to be seen because it's such a big part of the culture, has to be seen within our TV show. As an actor being out in those elements, it helps me form my character quite a bit.

Alison Stewart: How about you, Kiowa? How does it-- the setting?

Kiowa Gordon: I mean, it's everything, 'cause I grew up on the Hualapai Reservation in Arizona, and the landscape's pretty close to the Navajos. We both share the Grand Canyon. We're not really sharing it. We're stewards of the Grand Canyon. We're stewards of the land. It's nice to be able to feel the heat of the sun on your face and back, sweating for real. You're not in a green screen studio.

Alison Stewart: Yes. Jessica, you've been friends with Kiowa for a long time before the show. Yes?

Jessica Matten: Yes. Actually, both Zahn and Kiowa, but we all previously met on another TV show that we were all doing together. It was actually Jason Momoa that introduced me to Zahn and Kiowa, and they came on our show back then. That was like, what, 9, 10 years ago now. It's very typical in Indian country that we all stay in touch with one another, and whenever we go to a different city or country, we know you could just call someone up and be like, "Hey, there's another native in town. Come out for coffee. Come eat lunch."

That's what I did with Kiowa when I moved to Los Angeles, and yes, we became like siblings, as we are. Everyone thinks we're siblings or girlfriend and boyfriend. Neither. We're neither.

Kiowa Gordon: We're a secret third thing.

Zahn McClarnon: I'm the dad.

Jessica Matten: Uncle Joe.

Kiowa Gordon: Uncle Joe.

Alison Stewart: Uncle Joe.

Kiowa Gordon: I have an Uncle Joe.

Alison Stewart: Aw, that's sweet. Kiowa, your character has had to make some significant changes in how he thinks over the seasons. What has been the most significant change that he's had to make?

Kiowa Gordon: I think stripping away his belief that going to the FBI and graduating from Berkeley, I think he had this idea that just assimilation was the way to go, to not be in pain anymore, to get past our shared traumas and generational traumas. I think in season two, he has that departure, and he's a PI and he's trying to find his way back into the community, the Navajo community. In season three, he's back on the NTP with Leaphorn, and that gives him a sense of belonging more than he's ever had in his life.

Now he's confronted with these demons that have been thrust to the past. He's ran from it. Now he has to really confront it head on. It's a real significant jump for Jim, and you get to see that this season.

Alison Stewart: Zahn, the series is based loosely on the late Tony Hillerman's books. He wasn't an Indigenous person, but reportedly he worked really hard to make his books authentic. How does the show build on that quest for authenticity?

Zahn McClarnon: Well, authenticity is extremely important to us to represent the Navajo people, their culture, in an accurate way, and to respect it. We employ some wonderful cultural consultants, Jennifer Wheeler and Manny Wheeler, and they are involved from the script writing to the props, to the hair, to the wardrobe. We have half our writing room is native, and we have employed Navajo writers as well in the writing room. We're doing things that only a few other TV shows have done in the past few decades, and another one was Reservation Dogs and Rutherford Falls, those two shows.

Authenticity is extremely important, not just to me and as an EP on the show, but to the whole show. We've got crew that are native, and it's one of the things I'm most proud of for the show, is that we are employing more native talent behind the scenes, in front of the camera. As well with AMC, our network, that authenticity is very important to us.

Alison Stewart: You've been in the business for a while.

Zahn McClarnon: Yes. We don't represent the Navajo culture, though. To learn more about the Navajo culture, you're going to have to be with the culture and embed yourself in. We're not spokespeople for their culture. We're just actors.

Alison Stewart: Appreciate your point.

Zahn McClarnon: We respect it very much.

Alison Stewart: I'm wondering about you as an actor who's been in the business for a while.

Zahn McClarnon: Yes.

Alison Stewart: What does a role need for you to sign on?

Zahn McClarnon: Well, this one was pretty easy for me. We have George R. R. Martin and Robert Redford as EPs on the show and a close friend of mine who I've known for a few decades, Chris Eyre, who's one of our producer directors. It was pretty easy for me to sign on when they asked. I mean, to work with legends like that and Tino Elmo. We've got a wonderful showrunner, John Wirth, and line producer Jim Chory. We've just got a great team, and of course, we've got these two wonderful human beings. It was pretty easy decision for me.

Alison Stewart: I'm speaking with the lead actors, Zahn McClarnon, Kiowa Gordon, and Jessica Matten. We're talking about Dark Winds, the police drama set in 1970s Navajo country. Kiowa, Leaphorn and Chee, their relationship has evolved over these seasons. I'm only on season one. Have to wait for season two. How would you describe how they have evolved?

Kiowa Gordon: Well, I was a little wet behind the ears coming in season one, and Leaphorn just really-- [crosstalk]

Alison Stewart: He got your number right away.

Kiowa Gordon: Yes, he figured it out before I was even letting on that I was a fed. It's cool to see how he overlooks that now and he's like, "You know what? I need you to step up, Jim. I need you to be my right hand. I need you to be the dog, be the dog that you are."

Zahn McClarnon: My new son.

Kiowa Gordon: Yes, my surrogate son. It's a nice dynamic, kind of like father and son and also boss and subordinate sometimes. We like to role play.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: What do you think are Bernadette's strengths and what are her weaknesses?

Jessica Matten: Oh, that's a good question. I think her strengths are being resilient and being a strong Navajo woman in a role that, historically speaking, was mostly a man's job and doing it back in the 1970s and incorporating that. It's big. In terms of weaknesses, I think that's actually an interesting question to be revealed in season three.

Alison Stewart: She's got a new job.

Jessica Matten: Yes. She's out of her element, and true to form, a lot of natives that leave the reserve for the first time really are truly out of their element. It's a different jurisdiction. It's a completely different way of living life. You get to see a lot of her weaknesses, so to speak, just merely from stepping outside of what she knows.

Alison Stewart: Zahn, what are some of the themes that people can expect to see in season three?

Zahn McClarnon: I think, like any television show, we touch on universals, love, relationships, family, community, et cetera. It's just we have a bit of a unique cultural lean to it on Dark Winds.

Alison Stewart: Kiowa, Jim Chee started off the series thinking maybe he was a little superior, a little more educated, even though Leaphorn went to college with the FBI.

Kiowa Gordon: ASU.

[laughter]

Kiowa Gordon: He didn't call it a college. There was a line--

Alison Stewart: Such a lie. Such a lie.

Kiowa Gordon: So funny. Yes. I mean, I grew up in Arizona.

Alison Stewart: Look at her face. She's like, "[gasps] She said about ASU?"

Zahn McClarnon: How do you remember that?

Kiowa Gordon: I lived in Tempe-- Because, man, it's my job.

[laughter]

Kiowa Gordon: My brother went to ASU Business School, so I'm a Sun Devil fan. There's a video game for NCAA, and that's my team, is ASU. Anyways, let's get back to it.

Alison Stewart: My question was, how would you describe where he is this season?

Kiowa Gordon: He's turned the page. He's not just a lone wolf anymore. He's kind of gotten himself back in the fold where he flourishes now with Leaphorn as his point man. He tells me where to go, and I think I'm also not over the loss of Bernadette going to the border. You see that in the season. I'm just not over it. I'm pining for her, but I still have a job to do. I have to find missing George, and I have to deal with my own past with Shorty Bowlegs.

He's trying to be more immersed in the community for the Navajo, and he's going to throw himself into the job because that's how you get over the traumas, I think, is just pivot and focus on something that you can control.

Alison Stewart: Zahn, your character is pushed to a point where he departs from his stoic and how principled he is. How does that come back to haunt him?

Zahn McClarnon: Lot comes back to haunt Joe Leaphorn in season three. Some of the choices that he made in season two at the end of season two are going to definitely affect his life, and he's got some new people looking into some of those decisions from season two.

Alison Stewart: You want to share who it is?

Zahn McClarnon: Well, it's Agent Sylvia Washington from Washington.

Kiowa Gordon: Jenna Elfman.

Zahn McClarnon: Wonderful Jenna Elfman. He's testing some areas. His moral compass is a little bit off. There's some gray areas going on this season where some of those decisions may cost him everything. The stakes are pretty high this season for Joe.

Alison Stewart: I'm curious for you, seeing how successful the series has been, especially on Netflix. First of all, why do you think it's been so successful on Netflix?

Zahn McClarnon: I kind of touched on it before. I think the unique cultural lean is pretty-- It's unique, and people don't see these kinds of stories being told on television, and we're finally chipping away on all those stereotypes and tropes, and people are like, oh, wow, we're humanizing and normalizing. What was you said the other day? Normalize and humanize, I think it was.

Jessica Matten: It's just the way it's Tennessee Williams saying, rewrite what we know. I feel like we are all victims to that, even within our native culture and native storytelling in itself. It's like part of breaking those stereotypes is just us playing human beings and humanizing that overall.

Zahn McClarnon: Humanizing, yes.

Jessica Matten: Yes.

Alison Stewart: That's so interesting. Sometimes when you're really specific, it sometimes speaks to the universal.

Zahn McClarnon: Yes.

Jessica Matten: Yes.

Alison Stewart: You know what I mean? You get really specific about a culture, about a relationship, but it speaks to everybody.

Zahn McClarnon: Yes.

Jessica Matten: We were talking about this yesterday on another show, which was even showing sex scenes and love scenes with Indigenous people is so rare. That's something that, without giving anything away, but tapping more into our characters' love stories and sexuality. Historically speaking, I've been working this business for 15 years now, and all the shows I've done previously, I've always strayed away from playing characters if they were Indigenous, showing the sexual side because we always had that Pocahontas thing, that trope to deal with.

I was always against over sexualizing the characters, but I was like, you know what, part of innovating and moving our people forward, and as Zahn said, humanizing that and normalizing it, is actually showing those scenes now. It turned out to be extremely empowering and liberating.

Alison Stewart: I'm curious about your character. She gets a little bit of a lesson In white justice vs Indian justice in her new role. Tell us a little bit about her new job.

Jessica Matten: Yes, I guess that goes with the tribal jurisdiction being very different from a municipal jurisdiction or a non-native jurisdiction, so to speak, when it comes to policing. That is, in part, the white way and the Indian way. It's just her stepping into an area that she's unfamiliar with, unfamiliar territory, and really having to be a little less bold, knowing that she's the new kid on the block, so to speak, when she's on the-- She's on the border patrol this season. I hope that answers your question.

Alison Stewart: It was close.

Jessica Matten: Close enough.

Alison Stewart: I'm speaking with actors Zahn McClarnon, Kiowa Gordon, and Jessica Matten from the series Dark Winds. What is a moment, this is for all of you, in this series, especially for fans, because we've been playing a little bit loose because some people haven't caught up. I haven't caught up.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: [unintelligible 00:16:03]

Kiowa Gordon: Call yourself out.

Alison Stewart: I'm being honest. What is something for fans of the show who are going to be tuning in this Sunday on AMC that you would really like them to pay attention to about your character this season? We'll go with you, Kiowa.

Kiowa Gordon: Pay attention to glass case in the little elementary school or middle school. You'll see a picture of a young Chee who beat Billy Mills, Olympian Billy Mills, in a track meet.

Alison Stewart: All right, so pay attention to that.

Zahn McClarnon: As far as my character, just watching the moral gray areas that Joe has to deal with this season. Yes.

Alison Stewart: Okay. I know what they are, but oka. Okay, and how about for you?

Jessica Matten: Bernadette seeing a side of tapping into her vulnerability, and a big shout out to one of the bad guys, who's someone I really, really respect as a veteran actor in this biz too. That's it.

Zahn McClarnon: Alex.

Jessica Matten: No, not Alex. No offense. I love Alex.

Zahn McClarnon: Raoul Trujillo.

Jessica Matten: Raoul Trujillo.

Alison Stewart: All right.

Kiowa Gordon: Man, zero wolf.

Alison Stewart: I read that it has been renewed for season four. Is that true?

Zahn McClarnon: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Okay, good. I understand you're directing. You're directing. Is that happening?

Zahn McClarnon: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Zahn.

Zahn McClarnon: AMC asked me if I was interested in directing, and it scared the heck out of me, and I said yes. Yes, I will be directing for the first time in my career, and I've got a great team that are going to support me.

Alison Stewart: That's great. That's tough, though. Directors, all they have to do is make decisions constantly.

Zahn McClarnon: Yes, and be the number one on the TV show. It's going to be a handful, but again, I have a great team to support me, and we'll get through it. I'm looking forward to it.

Kiowa Gordon: Me too.

Alison Stewart: Everybody should watch all seasons of Dark Winds, first and second. They're on Netflix. The third will debut this weekend on AMC. My guests have been Zahn McClarnon, Kiowa Gordon, and Jessica Matten. Thank you so much for coming to the studio.

Jessica Matten: Thank you for having us.

Zahn McClarnon: Thank you. Appreciate it.

Kiowa Gordon: Have a great day, y'all.