Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart who is on vacation. Hey, thanks for spending part of your day with us. I'm super grateful that you're here. Here's what's up on today's show, actor Elizabeth Olsen is here to talk about her new role as a would-be parent in the new sci-fi film, The Assessment. We will talk with the curators of a new exhibition at Poster House that looks at images, both selling and protesting nuclear energy. We're going to talk with Emily Lazar, one of the music industry's most in demand mastering engineers. That's the plan. Let's get this started with going Mostly Meatless.

Whether it's for health reasons or for environmental reasons, more and more people are trying to cut down their meat intake, but it can be hard to give up meat entirely. The folks behind America's Test Kitchen in Boston have created a helpful cookbook for navigating a semi-vegetarian lifestyle. It's called Mostly Meatless: Green Up Your Plate Without Totally Ditching The Meat. The book includes recipes that use meat to enhance a meal, and instead, make vegetables and grains the star of the show. The recipes make sure not to sacrifice the great flavor meat can offer.

Joining me now to discuss is Dan Souza, Chief Content Officer of America's Test Kitchen. I want to mention that America's Test Kitchen also has a cooking competition series. Season 2 of America's Test Kitchen, The Next Generation, premieres April 1st on Prime Video.

Dan, welcome to the studio. Thanks for joining us.

Dan Souza: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Kousha Navidar: I'm excited for you to talk to me about mostly meatless diets. Listeners, we want you, as part of the conversation, to have you gone mostly meatless? What are your strategies for cutting down on your meat intake? Why did you decide to cut down on meat? Do you have any questions about making great meals with less meat? Give us a call. We can ask Dan. He's an expert. Call 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC.

Dan, I really enjoyed going through the book and seeing all the different recipes, both those with me, without me. Let's start just generally. Why might some people want to consider trying to take meat out of their diet?

Dan Souza: It's a good question. There are so many different reasons, whether it's, you mentioned some environmental, or ethical, or health related. I think at the end of the day, a lot of people don't necessarily want the label of, I'm a vegetarian, I'm vegan, and everything that comes with that. I think this book is really just the way that people want to eat nowadays. It's the way that I know my friends and family want to eat, where you're not cutting it out entirely and holding yourself to some really strict diet, but you're taking the emphasis off of meat being at the center of the plate, and you still include it when you want it and get really great flavor out of it, but it's really putting the primacy on vegetables and the stuff that you know is really healthy for you.

What I think is really special about this book is, as you mentioned, the flavor is king here. I think there's a lot of people that say like, "Okay, we're going to go more vegetables. We're going to lose out on that." There's so many great strategies for how you go more vegetable, more grains, pull back on the meat, but still have incredible flavor.

Kousha Navidar: Can you talk about some of those strategies?

Dan Souza: Yes. We explored a lot in here. I think there's really two categories that you need to pay attention to. One is flavor, and the other is fiber. When you talk about pulling meat out of food, that meat often satisfies in a way that keeps you full for a long period of time and really does that for you. Fiber is also really, really good at that. It keeps you full for longer. It's very, very satisfying, and it's excellent for you. We really look at a lot of fiber, full ingredients going into there, whether it's chickpeas, whether it's certain vegetables.

The flavor is key, key, key. If something isn't flavorful, you're not going to come back to it very often. There, we look at really the five tastes that you perceive on your tongue, and one of them is super, super important, and that is umami. This is the Japanese word for essentially savory or really mouth filling. There's a lot of ingredients that you can add to dishes that bring out a ton of umami that you won't even really miss the meat. We explore a lot of them in the book. Some are very traditional and things that you would know in terms of soy sauce and oyster sauce that do a ton of work there. Anchovies, which a small amount of anchovy can add meatiness without it actually tasting fishy. We also lean on nutritional yeast, which has its foothold in the kind of '70s health movement here in the US, but it's cheesy and rich, and it's really packed with glutamates, which is the compound that gives you that umami savoriness.

Kousha Navidar: Is it that umami is apparent in a lot of meat flavors, or it just is filling, like you said? What's the relationship between umami and meat?

Dan Souza: Our perception of umami is because of an amino acid called glutamic acid. Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. We perceive it because it tells us, from an evolutionary standpoint, "Oh, I'm getting protein." In a way, it triggers the same response that you get when you're eating a piece of meat. Some meats are very, very savory. There's fresh meat, your beef and your pork and that sort of stuff, but then there's also fermented and cured versions of those, which you can use a lot smaller portion of and get tons of flavor, so a little bit of bacon, a little bit of prosciutto, these sort of things can add. Even in the dried fish category of bonito flakes and anchovies, that process by which they ferment and dry really concentrates and amps up that flavor.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we're talking with Dan Souza, the Chief Content Officer of America's Test Kitchen. We're talking about their new cookbook. It's called Mostly Meatless: Green Up Your Plate Without Totally Ditching The Meat. The premise here is that you're not going full vegetarian. For whatever reason, you totally want to cut back on the meat, and this cookbook tells you a lot of different recipes that strikes that right balance, which might be right for you. Listeners, we do want to hear from you. If you've gone mostly meatless, if you have strategies for cutting down on your meat intake, if you have a reason that you want to share about why you decided to cut down on meat, give us a call. Or, of course, if you have questions for Dan or me, I don't know that I can answer them, but we could definitely ask Dan, give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC.

Dan, we've got our first caller. I'd love to go to them.

Dan Souza: Oh, great.

Kousha Navidar: Aria in Elmhurst, Queens. Aria, hey, welcome to the show.

Aria: Hi. Glad to be here. Longtime listener.

Kousha Navidar: Welcome.

Aria: My experience of being vegetarian just ends up being back and forth. For a lot of my years in my life, I was vegetarian. I did a bunch of travel, and sometimes abroad. It's not the easiest to experience a culture when you choose to eat only veg. I found myself eating meat for a couple of years back there. I think something that's been super helpful coming back to the US and just trying to get a good grip of it is trying different cultures at the same time that there's a lot of cultures that are really meat centric. There's also a lot of kinds of food from, say, for example, Indian cuisine, which is really good and really vegetarian. I think that subcontinent has a lot to offer in terms of just great vegetarian or meat-like options. Soy chunks is a very old style vegetarian option that's been used as a meat substitute.

I know for me, I have lots of family friends that still eat meat. If I go over for dinner or something, if everybody's making meatballs, sometimes it's easier and happier.

Kousha Navidar: You've got to partake.

Aria: Just enjoy the red sauce meatballs and get on with my day.

Kousha Navidar: Aria, thank you so much for that call. Really appreciate it. Dan, what were you going to say?

Dan Souza: That's a great question. It really hits on one of the big aspects of this book, is there are a lot of traditional cuisines that follow a mostly meatless formula. I think about Korean cuisine, I think about Chinese, Indian, he mentioned. There's some really traditional recipes in here that are just naturally fit the mold, which I think is really great.

Also as you're traveling and trying things, you do explore so much in this realm of mostly meatless. What you can take from that and bring back home, I think is really, really valuable. We have 200+plus recipes in here. We have a kimchi jjigae, which is incredible, and it's got a little bit of pork in there, but tons of protein from the tofu as well. It's a really nice mix.

I think there's a lot of people that have gone that way of vegetarian and then slipped back out of it. It's almost that like people fall into diets and they go back and forth, and this is, I think, a really great way to eat that you can live with.

Kousha Navidar: I'm so happy you brought that up because it's a great segue to my next question. You're sitting right here. I'm wondering, have you tried to go mostly meatless at any point? What's your personal relationship with this?

Dan Souza: Oh, definitely. I eat mostly meatless now. I did a vegetarian period when I was in high school and college, and I thought it was great because in some ways, it forces you to understand vegetables more and dig into them and learn more about technique. We talk about anything that you describe as meaty is something you should be interested in for this book, or for developing recipes for this book. Because think about mushrooms. We call them really meaty. There are meaty vegetables, like eggplant. Jackfruit is a really interesting fruit that has a meaty texture and is used as a meat substitute.

Going vegetarian, restricting yourself a little bit, I think you can force some creativity out of that process. Having done that experience, I pull that into my cooking now. No, I eat mostly meatless. The caller mentioned meatballs and going to someone's house, and it's like, all right, if it's meatballs, we're going to do meatballs. We actually have a meatball recipe where it's only about 40% beef, and the rest is made up of chickpeas. It's got some dried mushrooms in there, some panko, some parmesan, and so it's really satisfying, and you get that lovely texture and some good meatiness, but with significantly less.

Kousha Navidar: What is the process for developing recipes at America's Test Kitchen? Because I look through the credits in the book and there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen, I guess. There's a lot of folks that are contributing to this. How do you make the recipes?

Dan Souza: Yes, a lot of cooks in the kitchen is a great way to put it. We have about 45 test cooks. We have an incredible test kitchen in Boston. It's about 17,000 square feet of test kitchen space.

Kousha Navidar: Wow.

Dan Souza: We've been doing this for about 25 years, and we have a real formula for it. It takes us probably five or six weeks to develop a recipe. It's the scientific method. We decide what recipe we want to test, and we test it on an iterative process, like, let's try increasing this baking soda by a little bit and then do a side by side test, see what we like, and then move on to the next test and the next. There's some fun out there testing, but there's a lot boring just going through it in order to get to a recipe that we've tested everything, we're really confident that this is the best way to do it for us. Then once we've got to that point, we actually have this incredible panel about, I think it's 50,000 home cooks that will volunteer to make our recipes before we publish them.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, interesting.

Dan Souza: Yes. We send it out and they give us incredible feedback, like, "This step was a little bit confusing," or, "I couldn't find this ingredient." That allows us to go back in the kitchen and bulletproof the recipe before we publish it. There's so much work that goes into it before you make it at home. We like to say that we make the mistake so you don't have to. You can take one of these recipes, invite friends over and cook it the first time, and it's going to work for you.

Kousha Navidar: Wow. How long does that process take from soup to next?

Dan Souza: About six weeks.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, that's actually pretty fast, I'd have to say, if you're doing the scientific method and then crowdsourcing it.

Dan Souza: Yes, it is. We give these amazing cooks the resources and the time to do it. It's their 9:00 to 5:00 and 40-hour week just really focused on diving into these recipes.

Kousha Navidar: Wow, there's a lot of knowledge in these pages.

Let's go to Connie in Tarrytown, New York. Hey, Connie. Welcome to the show.

Connie: Hi. How are you guys?

Kousha Navidar: Good, thanks.

Connie: I'm calling because I understand that tempeh is less processed than tofu. I really like that it's so chewy because it has that meaty texture. I don't really see a whole lot of recipes for tempeh. I was just wondering if there's some general tips for how to use it.

Dan Souza: That's a great question. We have a wonderful recipe in the book for gado-gado, which is an Indonesian salad. Salad might be a soft word for what it is because it's so packed with wonderful things, but it's got some tempeh in there. A lot of times, tempeh is really nice when it's marinated simply. Something a little bit salty, like soy sauce, a little bit of fat in there. Then I like it really when it's cooked at a pretty high temperature to get some browning. It's got a lot of protein in there. I've had it deep fried, and it's wonderful, or even just sauteed in a skillet is really nice.

In gado-gado, you make this wonderful peanut sauce that is-- I would eat anything that this sauce is touching. You have some seared off tempeh, and you have some blanched green beans and potatoes, and you just make this gorgeous salad, and you cover it in the peanut sauce, which is also really rich in protein. The tempeh, like you said, adds this incredible chew and meaty quality to it, and it just plays off the other components so well. I'm a huge tempeh fan. We have a few other recipes in there for it. Each tempeh is different, so it helps to shop around and find the one that you really like.

Kousha Navidar: In terms of texture or in terms of flavor?

Dan Souza: Texture, composition. Some of them come pre-marinated as well, which can be really nice.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, sure. There's some texts that I want to read up as well. Here's one. "I gave up slaughterhouse products for 20 years for moral reasons. Factory farming is cruel and unhealthy. I now eat meat sparingly, but only include organic flesh foods that come from local farms that are not CAFOs." Do you know what CAFO stands for, Dan?

Dan Souza: Yes. It's basically the factory farming, the CAFOs.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, okay, got it. CAFO. Then here's another one. Oh, this is interesting. "Small amounts of very sharp, salty cheese also does a lot of work. Feta blue parm, extra sharp cheddar, goat halloumi." Wonderful tip. Yes, just a little bit of cheese can go a long way.

Speaking of going a long way, we're going to come back with Dan Souza, the Chief Content Officer of America's Test Kitchen, after a quick break. We're talking about their new cookbook. It's called Mostly Meatless: Green Up Your Plate Without Totally Ditching The Meat. Listeners, as you may have gathered, we are taking your calls and your texts. If you have gone mostly meatless and you have a question for Dan or you just want to share your experience, your strategies, give us a call or send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. We'll be right back after this.

This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar, and we are talking to Dan Souza. He's the Chief Content Officer for America's Test Kitchen. We're talking about this cool new cookbook that the America's Test Kitchen just came out with. It's called Mostly Meatless: Green Up Your Plate Without Totally Ditching The Meat. The conceit is that you don't have to go full vegetarian if you're not ready or for whatever other reason. If you want to go mostly meatless and you want to make grains and vegetables the star of the show on your plate, well, America's Test Kitchen has come out with a bunch of interesting recipes that you can try out.

Listeners, we want to hear from you. Have you gone mostly meatless? What are your strategies for cutting down on your meat intake? Why did you decide to cut down on meat? Give us a call or send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC.

Dan, we had a bunch of texts just come through that I'd love to get your take on.

Dan Souza: Oh, great.

Kousha Navidar: Here's the first one. It says, "I eat very little meat, but through a migraine elimination diet, discovered that grains and legumes are not my friends. I'm a distance runner and struggle to get enough protein without relying heavily on milk protein. Any tips?" Great question.

Dan Souza: That is a great question, because I usually go to a lot of legumes to get the protein in there.

Kousha Navidar: Would pea protein count as a legume in this case?

Dan Souza: I think technically, yes. I would usually go with chickpeas and things like that. We lean on mushrooms a lot in this book for meaty texture. They have some protein. They're not super, super high in it. That's a tricky one. I really think I would look to nuts and mushrooms. If you can get a little bit of soy protein in there at times, not too much, but maybe a little bit, that'd probably be my best bet.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, soy protein might be a good option.

Dan Souza: A little bit, yes. I know it's in the legume family there, but some of those guys are so, so protein packed.

Kousha Navidar: We hope that helps. I'm a distance runner myself, so this question really does hit home. I rely on pea protein myself, personally. I hope that the person who texted is able to find some of those options to work.

Here's another text that says, "Enjoying this segment. Love America's Test Kitchen."

Dan Souza: Oh, awesome.

Kousha Navidar: Big soup guy here in Bay Ridge. "A neighbor of mine is vegan, so I started to experiment. I save all of my organic vegetable scraps and make a stock. No more meat stocks for my soup. Anytime I have root vegetables that go in the oven to be roasted, this really magnifies the flavor." What do you think about that?

Dan Souza: Oh, absolutely. A good stock can do so much for a dish. I think chicken stock is wonderful, beef stock is wonderful, but at the end of the day, you're looking for body and background richness. I think a vegetable stock can do so much. If you get a little bit dried mushroom in there, it can add a lot. I would also look at seasoning it up. You could do a little bit of soy sauce, or you can do a little nutritional yeast. You can bring a lot of that hyper umami savoriness that you get in a lot of meat stocks to a vegetable stock very, very easily.

There's even a product that we test ingredients a lot as well. There's one called Better Than Bouillon that we use instead of stock, and they make a vegan one that essentially mimics the flavor of chicken and is really umami. A lot of that can be done without meat at all involved in the process. If you think about MSG, that's originally derived from seaweed. You can really get it without the meat.

Kousha Navidar: I feel so vindicated because we use Better Than Bouillon in my household.

Dan Souza: Oh, you do?

Kousha Navidar: I feel like America's Test Kitchen just told me I'm doing something right.

Dan Souza: You absolutely are. We test so many products. We test equipment, and then ingredients, too, to try to figure out at the supermarket, what's your best buy for tomato paste or you name it. We try to arm people with everything that they need, from setting up their kitchen to serving the meal.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to some callers. We've got Kevin in Port Washington, Long Island. Kevin, hey, welcome to the show.

Kevin: Hi. How are you guys today?

Kousha Navidar: Great, thanks.

Kevin: I'm enjoying this very much, by the way.

Dan Souza: Oh, great.

Kousha Navidar: Great. Thank you.

Kevin: About seven and a half years ago, I went whole food plant based for health reasons, and the results were dramatic. I was pre-diabetic. Within three months, I was normal. My blood pressure came under control. My cholesterol dropped way down. Overall, inflammation started. For a healthy body, for health reasons, this has been a tremendous thing, to go full bore on the plant based.

A lot of the things you've been talking about, I use. Better Than Bullion is great for adding flavors. I make my own stocks. My favorite thing is my instant pot this time of year for making stews. Somebody mentioned roasted vegetables, I heard. Absolutely the best way to do them, put them on the cookie sheet and pop them in the oven. The flavor just is enormous.

I will say my family came along with me on this. They're probably 90% in the whole food plant based vein. I will say that the difference here, though, is that I do not use any processed foods, and also refined sugars, I have cut down. The sweeteners that I use are--

Kousha Navidar: The refined sugars can make a big difference. Kevin, we really appreciate that call. Happy to hear that that diet has worked so well for you. Let's go to Amy in Brooklyn. Hey, Amy, welcome to the show.

Amy: Hi. Thank you so much. Apologies. My question is around soy protein isolate, which is in a lot of meat substitutes. I was wondering, I've heard some bad things about it. I wanted to know what your take was about that. Is it good? Is it bad? What's the deal?

Dan Souza: A lot of times I think about processing, how much processing has been done to an ingredient before you get it. We know ultra processed foods are not so great for us. In the book, we actually lean more on traditional products, for lack of a better term. If it's soy, it's going to be tofu or maybe it's going to be tempeh or something like that. We don't really have, in the book, any of the pea protein crumbles or soy protein isolate. I think there's a lot to dig into there, and there's probably ones that are totally fine and good. We just tend to pull back a little bit, a little less processing, we know a little bit more about what's going into it. That would be my recommendation.

Our last caller raised a really great point around roasting vegetables, because technique is such a really important aspect here, too. Because you can have a sweet potato, and you could steam it, you could boil it, you could roast it. The more you do to it to bring out additional flavors, the more interesting it gets. We do a ton of roasting in here, a lot of satay, those high heat methods will produce browning that add this kind of extra layer of flavor. When you're working with a slightly more limited pantry, not to say that this is actually very limited, it really helps to pay attention to how you're cooking something and what additional flavor you can bring out.

Kousha Navidar: It's interesting you bring that up, because there is this one technique in the book that struck me, at least, that, I guess is technique. It's blooming spices in fat. We think about meat as just, oh, the steak, but actually you cook bacon, you've got a lot of fat to use as part of it. Can you talk a little bit about that strategy of blooming spices and fat?

Dan Souza: Totally. I think looking to the Indian subcontinent, is where to go when you're talking about spices and blooming. It does so much for it. One thing is, if you can buy whole spices and then grind them, you're much better off. They're very volatile, which is why we smell them in the air. If it's finely ground, it has tons of surface area exposed, and you lose that pretty quickly. Grinding spices fresh is really, really valuable, or even keeping them whole.

Blooming them in spices does a couple of things. One is it intensifies some of the flavors that you're already getting. That's kind of that blooming, it's almost onomatopoeic. It's explaining what's happening there. You bring the flavor out. It also transfers a lot of that flavor to the fat. Most flavor compounds are these big molecules that are fat soluble. It pulls into the fat, and that fat spreads throughout the dish.

We have this wonderful dish in the book, which is a dal. It's a palak dal, so it has spinach in it, but it's finished with a tadka, which is an amazing technique of basically heating spices, and sometimes curry leaves and chilies in fat, whether it's ghee or oil, and then pouring it over the top of the dal at the end, and it sizzles and crackles, but you're pulling so much flavor out of that, and you get it immediately on your palate because it's front and center. That's a wonderful technique. Anytime you're using spices, it's good to think about is there a step I could do first to pull them out and really season that fat.

Kousha Navidar: I want to talk about grains for a second as well. A key part of cutting down on meats does mean adding more grains. Right now, there seems to be a trend towards prioritizing protein over carbs. People are scared of carbs.

Dan Souza: Sure.

Kousha Navidar: Can you talk about that a little bit? Why shouldn't we be scared of carbs?

Dan Souza: I think the term carb is unfortunately so broad, and it does a really disservice to what they are. Carbohydrates are incredibly valuable for energy and keeping our bodies moving, but there are carbs that are really, really highly refined that spike your glucose levels, aren't really great for you and your heart, and then there are ones that are really fiberful. Those are whole grains, those are chickpeas. There's so many. They are slow to absorb. They give you energy for a long period of time, and they're really heart healthy. They can lower your cholesterol and all these good things. I would really push people to separate them out.

If you look at a lot of traditional diets that have kept people living for really long periods of time, they're pretty high in these slow burn, really complex carbohydrates. You can get a lot of protein out of those as well. I think we're a little protein obsessed in this country, and you need to get this much.

Kousha Navidar: Well, I need my gains, Dan.

Dan Souza: Yes, you need your gains. Look, you and I, we both look like we're really putting on a lot of muscle. I think there's even bodybuilders that have done it without tons of meat, and there are definitely ways to get more protein in that vein. Complex carbohydrates, those slow fiberful carbohydrates are a cornerstone of any really good diet.

Kousha Navidar: Can you think of an example, a staple of a complex carb that is really good to go to?

Dan Souza: Yes, definitely. Any legumes are going to be amazing for you, whether it's your cannellini beans or chickpeas or anything like that. I think chickpeas in general are really great. Quinoa is a really great high protein grass seed, essentially. That is also awesome there. If you can move away from your really refined white breads and white rices and stuff like that. I still enjoy them, but maybe in moderation and definitely with lots of other foods to slow the absorption. We got to get rid of this fear of carbs thing. I don't think it's doing us any service.

Kousha Navidar: Sure. Let's go to Caleb in Bloomfield, New Jersey. Hey, Caleb. Welcome to the show.

Caleb: Hey, thanks for having me. My girlfriend is pescatarian. I am not. We do eat a fair amount of fish and shellfish. However, we found a nice workaround for sushi. We love sushi to death. We order it out a lot. When we make it at home, we've been trying to get much better at it. We found to soak sun dried tomatoes in a little bit of soy sauce for about 30 minutes to an hour, and it gives a fantastic umami flavor similar to a tuna. If you're making a roll or sashimi or something, it's a great substitute, meatless substitute for sushi at home.

Kousha Navidar: Caleb, thank you so much. Really appreciate that call. I want to look at the clock here. Just read a few more texts. Here's a few of them. "I was vegetarian for years. In terms of values, I aligned with it. However, I became very anemic and gained weight and felt terrible. I tried many, many things. One day after years, I had to try red meat again. I immediately felt better. Working meat back in cured my anemia. I lost 30 pounds and feel much better. However, my values don't align with my diet. What would you suggest, Dan?" I find this to be such an interesting question because different diets work for different folks, and this does sound like a bit of a tricky situation.

Dan Souza: It definitely is. I think looking at the choice of protein, and we can get into a lot of ethical conversations. I think you talk about beef, has big environmental impact, and in general, it's not raised in a really sustainable way in this country. If this listener is a fan of fish and seafood, I would look at fish that are very low down on the food chain. Mackerel is one of my favorite fish ever, and you can get it smoked, and it's really, really incredible. It's going to be low in mercury because it doesn't grow for a long period of time and eat lots of other fish. It's really high in omega 3s, and it's fast to reproduce, so it's really sustainable.

I can feel a lot better about that choice than maybe having a corn fed steak and that sort of thing. I would look at the proteins and see that they're not all the same in a lot of different ways. Not everyone loves the oily fish and stuff like that, but I would look for those options that fit into your ethical lens, and obviously what your palate enjoys. Because if you don't like it, you're not going to keep eating it.

Kousha Navidar: There's a lot to like about this book. If you're looking for a way to have some meat but make grains and vegetables, the bigger star of the show. My guest was Dan Souza, Chief Content Officer of America's Test Kitchen. We talked about the new cook, Mostly Meatless: Green Up Your Plate Without Totally Ditching The Meat.

Listeners, thanks so much for your calls. Really loved getting them, and the texts. Dan, thanks so much for coming by.

Dan Souza: Oh, thanks for having me. Anytime, I'll be back.