Title: Monica Barbaro on Transforming into Joan Baez in "A Complete Unknown." [theme music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. In the Bob Dylan biopic "A Complete Unknown," we learn about the songwriter through the people around him. Musicians like Pete Seeger, Johnny Cash, and of course, Joan Baez, played by my next guest, Monica Barbaro. To step in the role, Barbaro did extensive research and vocal training, and guitar lessons so she can sound like this.

[guitar strumming]

Monica Barbaro: Go away from my window

Go at your own chosen speed

I'm not the one you want, babe

I'm not the one you need

[applause]

Alison Stewart: She's now nominated for an Oscar for Best Supporting Actress as well as a Screen Actors Guild award. Monica, welcome to the studio.

Monica Barbaro: Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: When you auditioned, who was attached to this project?

Monica Barbaro: James Mangold and Timothee Chalamet and that was about it. They were in discussion with-- They were in conversation with Elle. I'm not sure if I think Boyd was. Was being talked about, but that. That was about it. Yeah.

Alison Stewart: What was the audition process like?

Monica Barbaro: It was in 2020, so --

Alison Stewart: A while ago.

Monica Barbaro: Yes, my first audition was in 2020. You get an email and you get the specs of the job. In this case, it was a scene, a few scenes. One of the scenes had a song laced into it, and then they asked also for me to self-tape a song. I went in the room with Yesi Ramirez and I auditioned and was told I was going to meet James Mangold the next week because it went well and yay. Then like, "Oh, wait, there's this pandemic happening, and so maybe two weeks.

Alison Stewart: Oh, my gosh.

Monica Barbaro: Then next thing I knew, the project almost fell apart. There was no attachment to it until 2023 when I met him.

Alison Stewart: A couple of weeks ago on your Instagram, you had an email, it was from James Mangold that said, "Joan is yours."

Monica Barbaro: [chuckles] Yes.

Alison Stewart: All right, once you get that part, once it's nailed, what's next for you? What do you have to do for research?

Monica Barbaro: I mean, I think I celebrated for all of 10 minutes before I grabbed my sister's guitar and took it to get restrung. I was so nervous. I was so excited, but so nervous because Joan is an incredible guitar player. She's an incredible singer. She's well known and well known for being great at those things, has a lot of devoted fans, and me included. I didn't do either of those things. I didn't sing, I didn't play. I knew my work was cut out for me. [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: When it came to appreciating her as an artist. What did you come away from him, from this role, understanding about her as a musician?

Monica Barbaro: I really loved learning about the folk music scene and how every song, how songs were passed around and translated through different artists' styles. There are so many of her arrangements of these songs that I just think are so, so brilliant.

I really loved getting to absorb her versions of songs, and then also that tying in with the research and learning about her, I found that when I listened to House of the Rising Sun and she hovers on this part about her sister, I felt once I knew more about her relationship with her younger sister Mimi, that there was something there. I thought that was just a really beautiful thing to understand these songs almost as the musician taking on storytelling, taking on some version of their own life within the midst of a song that's about maybe something seemingly completely different.

Alison Stewart: You worked with a vocal coach, yes?

Monica Barbaro: I did, Eric Vitro.

Alison Stewart: What's that entail?

Monica Barbaro: Oh, my God.

Alison Stewart: Everything?

Monica Barbaro: Yes, everything. He's a therapist. [chuckles] Truly, it was a constant like, "You can do this energy." In my audition, I couldn't sing as high as Joan does or did at that time. That was a big part of what we worked on, was getting my range to expand, to sing as high as she does, did. Also, she has a really strong, steady vibrato and she plays a lot with dynamics. It's not just can I sing a song, but can I sound like Joan and can I capture the essence of what she brought to the music that she sang? We just day in and day out, tried to work all of those different elements.

Alison Stewart: I wonder, as I watch the film, how do you walk the line between getting Joan's voice and not imitating Joan?

Monica Barbaro: It's a push and pull. I think it is a fine line. Ultimately, I think you're doing that work throughout. I mean, I felt that while we were filming and I watched Timothy do that while we were filming some line ed, all of us. Some lines felt more imitation-y and some would slip into our own voice and sometimes you hit that beautiful, perfect balance.

Luckily, it is a medium where Jim can choose his best take, but that's a part of the process, I think, is just playing and experimenting with those things. We don't want, ultimately, a mimicry of the person, and yet, for me, those were exercises that I did like pure imitation. It's a lot of play and fine-tuning and then, really, ultimately, trusting our amazing director. I noticed you said, "Walk the line."

[chuckling]

Alison Stewart: Put that in there. I read on the Internet and tell me if it's true or not because the Internet, that you wore fake teeth.

Monica Barbaro: I did, yes. Oh, there's this incredible artist. His name is Art, and he is Art. An artist with a capital A. He is an artist of all kinds. He's an incredible illustrator as well. He made teeth. We went through a couple of rounds of teeth so that they wouldn't look silly. I think Jim saw a picture of me in a fitting and he was like, "Okay, but we don't want the Hollywoodized version of this person." I mean, the entire production, I'm looking at this box that these headphones are plugged into right now.

If we were on set that our set designer would be running up at the last minute painting it with stuff to make it look old. Everything was just about getting that authenticity and Joan had this amazing smile and had these just incredible teeth that people would comment on and were beloved. He asked for those teeth to be made. This guy did Will Smith's teeth for King Richard. He did Charlize Theron's teeth for Monster. We would joke. I was like, "He needs a cabinet at the Academy Museum or something.

[chuckling]

Alison Stewart: My guest is Monica Barbaro. She stars as Joan Baez in the biopic "A Complete Unknown." She's nominated for an Oscar for Best Supporting Actress. Let's play another clip from the film. This is a scene between Bob and Joan, Bob Dylan and Joan Baez after they spent the night together and Joan is making coffee.

Bob Dylan: These chords I learned from a cowboy named Wigglefoot.

Monica Barbaro: You were in a carnival. You are so completely full of [beeps]. I had lessons as a kid, you know, normal lessons. I write too. I'm not sure there's a way to learn that.

Bob Dylan: Too hard.

Monica Barbaro: Excuse me?

Bob Dylan: You tried too hard to write.

Monica Barbaro: Really?

Bob Dylan: Yes, if you're asking.

Monica Barbaro: I wasn't.

Bob Dylan: Sunsets and seagulls, smell of buttercups. Your songs are like an oil painting at the Dentist's office.

Monica Barbaro: You're kind of an [beeps].

Bob Dylan: Yes, I guess.

Monica Barbaro: It's funny to listen to. I don't think I've ever just listened to it. [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: That was one of the last scenes you filmed for the movie?

Monica Barbaro: The last, yes.

Alison Stewart: How do you think that extra time improved your performance on that scene?

Monica Barbaro: I find it's easier to play contentious. I don't know why. I don't know what it is in human nature that exists this way. Maybe other people feel differently, but I feel it's pretty common. It's easier to play scenes where you're contentious with somebody than it is to play really intimately connected scenes or that's just somehow more readily available to us for some reason. Our first scene together was the scene where we sing together on the stage in Pittsburgh and he leaves her on stage and we're fighting and we're improvising with the audience.

We shot that first, and then we shot Blowin' In The Wind last. I don't know if that was Jim's design. I've actually mentioned this a few times in Q&As with him and he's never let on whether he designed it that way or if it was just accidental. The Blowin' In The Wind scene was the final scene we shot and it was just really wonderful to get that time to settle into these characters. We got to know each other better and I think we trusted each other implicitly, but that also grew over time when we saw each other deliver on these scenes. We got to work together more and more.

Also, Jim gave that scene so much time. I think we shot it-- It was a whole day for just that scene. I think the same is true for the gorgeous scene that Elle Fanning and Timmy do between the fence, on either side of the fence. They got loads of time with it. He's always willing to give those scenes the time they deserve.

Alison Stewart: When you're thinking about the big picture of the movie, what does Joan get from Bob?

Monica Barbaro: Ooh. Oh, God. Sorry, kicking things. I think Joan was grappling with her relationship with her fame at the time. She was very well known before anyone knew Bob existed. I think that butt heads with some of her values and her upbringing. She wasn't sure what she wanted out of this role that she had developed and this power and platform that she had as a musician, but I think she felt like she really wanted to communicate more about what was going on in the world and say more with her music. She wasn't finding the words to express what she was trying to say and I think Bob provided those words.

I think it's funny because I think, in part, he did that because of Suze Rutolo's influence. Somewhere in some universe, I think, maybe Suze Rotolo and Joan hung out and wrote songs themselves. [chuckles] He's a brilliant writer and he was impassioned at that time and inspired by Suze, which is essentially who Elle's character is based on. He was saying the things she was trying to find the words to say. He gave her that and he gave the whole movement that.

Alison Stewart: I interviewed Joan Baez on this show. She's sitting right there.

Monica Barbaro: Oh, my God. Cool. [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: It was great when this documentary about her life came out, which I'm sure you saw.

Monica Barbaro: Yes.

Alison Stewart: During the interview, we played an old tape we found of her from 1960.

Monica Barbaro: Oh, wow.

Alison Stewart: She would have been around 20 years old. I asked her if she was frightened on stage. This is what she said.

Joan Baez: Oh, God, I was a nervous wreck. I really was a nervous wreck. Starting from the very beginning, starting [chuckles] singing. I was 15 singing at a Shriners gathering and getting just immobilized by fear. You see some of that in the film. It's hard to describe. Also because I looked so calm and I looked so peaceful. Oh, you're so peaceful. I'm thinking, oh, my God, the turmoil going on inside there. I know I probably, in a way, was self-soothing by being up there. I like the sound of my own voice. I love hearing it back. I'm just astonished at it. I'm so far from being [chuckles] able to do any of those notes now. I look at it and think, oh, my God, how did she do that?

Alison Stewart: Since you've been inside Jo Baez's mind, what stands out to you about what she said?

Monica Barbaro: Sorry, I get emotional when I hear her voice.

Alison Stewart: It's okay.

Monica Barbaro: That's amazing to hear. I mean, I read and heard she talks about her stage fright and she's known for seeming so calm and confident and comfortable. It's funny because I also was just absolutely terrified every step of the way making this movie. To know that she was as anxious as she was, to know that she had that performance anxiety was helpful for me in that I felt like I could lean on just the knowing that if any anxiety was present in the performance, at least that was true to Joan.

It's funny too because when you first played a song in the beginning of this interview, the It Ain't Me Babe, I hear my voice back and think, "Wow, I sound so comfortable and confident and just--" It was sheer terror all the time. It's really overwhelming. I'm a very separate person from her. We're two different people, for sure, but I feel so connected to her. I can't help get emotional when I hear her talk. Did I answer-- What was your question? [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: That's a good question. That was a good answer, actually.

Monica Barbaro: Okay.

Alison Stewart: You met Joan Baez.

Monica Barbaro: I did.

Alison Stewart: Where? When? How? Who? What? [chuckles]

Monica Barbaro: I was terrified I was going to do that and start crying in front of her. While we spoke on the phone, while I was doing the movie, I wasn't sure how that would go because I think sometimes people want to dictate who they are if they're going to be presented in this way. I mean, she didn't seem to have attachment to how we presented her, and I was lucky for that. She just answered my questions and she was really gracious. She gave us her arrangements of her songs, but it was just a phone call. I've hung up and just started crying. It was intense. I had been having dreams about meeting her. You obsess over a person, you become a little bit crazy about them, and yet, it released me from feeling I had to be her and allowed me to understand that we're two separate people. Then she gave me really-- Time passes, we shoot the film.

I'm hoping she doesn't hate it. She left a voicemail for me and gave me positive feedback about the film, which I cried again. Then just this last weekend, I got to meet her in person. There was this benefit concert and she just-- It was amazing to get to see her on stage, to just be in the same room with her, all of the people that she inspired. Bonnie Raitt was like, "I sing because of Joan." To hear that was like, "Oh, my God." She sang Diamonds and Rust beautifully, and then we got to hug backstage and we'll keep in touch.

Alison Stewart: My guest has been Monica Barbaro. She stars as Joan Baez in the biopic "A Complete Unknown." She is nominated for an Oscar for Best Supporting Actress. Thanks for coming by today.

Monica Barbaro: Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: That is All Of It. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I'll meet you back here next time.

[theme music]

[00:18:14] [END OF AUDIO]