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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Michigan's governor, Gretchen Whitmer is here. She's sitting right across from me. Her name comes up in conversation when you talk politics. Would she be a good VP? Have you seen her social media? Did you hear what President Trump called her and her clap back? What happened to those men who tried to kidnap her? Governor Whitmer is focused on two things, making the lives of Michiganders better and getting VP Kamala Harris elected. Since she joined public service, winning a seat in the Michigan House in 2000, she has earned a reputation for being tough, and funny, and someone who learns from her mistakes. She doesn't really hold back on any of it in her new book titled, True Gretch: What I've Learned about Life, Leadership, and Everything in Between. Governor Whitmer, welcome to WNYC.

Governor Whitmer: Thank you. I'm so glad to be with you.

Alison Stewart: Why did you decide of all roles in government that you wanted to be a governor?

Governor Whitmer: Well, unlike some people, I wasn't born to run. I did not think I'd ever run for office. My goal was to be where you are, to be a broadcaster.

Alison Stewart: Well, that's funny because I wanted to be governor.

Governor Whitmer: There you go. See, our young selves didn't have any idea what our paths were going to be. [chuckles] I went to Michigan State, thought I was going to be a sports broadcaster. I did an internship down at the state capitol, and it changed everything for me. I fell in love with public policy and public service. I'm really grateful, even on the hardest day, that I am in this important job.

Alison Stewart: You've been governor since 2018, and in your 2022 incumbent race, it was two women. There was actually a third running as well. What was different about that race?

Governor Whitmer: Well, I think that my first race was an unknown quantity. I needed to get out and hit the doors and meet as many people as I could. I got to tell you, the most fun part of a campaign is you meet some fascinating people. You meet some really, always interesting people. It can be long, hard days but I love people. I love to ask questions. I love to learn what's going on in people's lives. I think when you do that, it makes you a better leader, whether it's in elective office or in a private workplace. I think it's listening to superpower that more people need to cultivate.

Alison Stewart: You've already said you're sitting out this race, and if you listen to a lot of pundits, they say, "Oh, well, we couldn't have two women running, anyway." Taking yourself out of it, what do you think about two women running together for the presidency?

Governor Whitmer: I think it's a fantastic idea. I think anyone who says we can't have too many women is totally not knowledgeable about our experience, at least in Michigan. I can tell you, in 2018, when I ran for governor, I had a lot of people say we cant have too many women on the ticket. Both my secretary of state and my attorney general are women. The top elected executive offices in the State of Michigan, which is a microcosm of the country, are all women-held. Fortunately, we all ignored the people that said we can't have too many. I do think that a two-female ticket is something that would be really energizing and exciting for people.

Alison Stewart: We're talking to Governor Gretchen Whitmer. The name of her book is True Gretch: What I've Learned about Life, Leadership, and Everything in Between. In the book, you go all the way back to when you were a little kid, when you were 10, and you described yourself as a real caregiver in your family because your parents divorced and you're really looking out for your siblings. You're seeing as your little sister got home okay from when she was little, when she was from kindergarten, while your mother worked. How do you see that behavior influencing your work as a governor?

Governor Whitmer: Well, I talked to a therapist one time, I have had many opportunities to meet some wonderful people and learn how to work through problems. She, one time, observed that every one of us, we should think of ourselves as a ball of clay. Sometimes things are taken away from us, whether it is a carefree childhood because you've got added responsibilities, being the conduit between divorced parents, or as a sexual assault survivor, which I am as well. Things were taken away from me. She says, "When you're hollowed-out by an event or something in your life, sometimes that's what gives you purpose. A hollowed-out ball of clay can be a cup that can carry water."

I always love that visual because every one of us is an amalgamation of different lived experiences, different inherited traits or traumas. To find purpose in that, I think, is what has really given me strength in tough times. That being a caregiver early on in my life, I think, has really informed who I am and why I show up the way that I do and the work that I do. I don't have time for baloney. I don't have time for people that want to benefit themselves from other people's problems. I want to fix problems. I want to make people's lives better.

Alison Stewart: You are very honest in this book. You're really honest. You tell a tale of being so wasted that you threw up on your principle.

Governor Whitmer: Yes.

Alison Stewart: First of all, what was the moment that got you out of party monster Gretchen mode and into politics?

Governor Whitmer: Well, I'm your fun friend from high school that you wondered if they'd ever get their act together.

Alison Stewart: I know you.

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Governor Whitmer: Fortunately, I mean, I did make mistakes when I was younger, and I always think about my kids who are 22 and 20, and, gosh, everything's recorded. There's phones everywhere. Fortunately, we didn't have that. I could have the grace of making a colossal bad judgment mistake, get suspended, get in trouble, get grounded. Ultimately, it was that mistake that really pushed me to get my act together. I became the best, most improved student. I got into Michigan State, which I was not on that trajectory prior to that drinking event, went to law school, and ended up graduating near the top of my class.

I share these experiences because I found my people. I surrounded myself with great people. That's what propelled me to find out, yes, I'm ambitious. Yes, I've got things that I'm capable of doing. I think that was a real learning moment in my life.

Alison Stewart: Were you not ambitious before then?

Governor Whitmer: I think maybe it was there, but it was latent. It was concealed by the funtime Gretchen, as opposed to, okay-- I actually have some capabilities I wasn't aware of before then.

Alison Stewart: When you worked in local politics in the House of Representatives, you gave a really open and honest speech about something really personal. It was a speech about a bill that would not allow abortions for women who had been raped. You write about your decision to reveal your rape during a local congressional hearing. What happened that allowed you, that really led you to speak about it publicly? Publicly.

Governor Whitmer: I was raped as a freshman in college and not a unique story, sadly. I had never shared it publicly, but there was this debate happening. They didn't have a single committee hearing where women could testify or doctors or nurses could testify. I thought this is my only chance to show the face of the people that are going to be impacted by this cruel, unnecessary policy. I had tried to talk my colleague into sharing his story. He and his wife wanted a baby. They went through IVF. She had a miscarriage and needed to go to the hospital to have it completed, have the abortion care. He couldn't tell his story. I thought, how can I ask someone to bear their soul when I, too, have a story that might help us put a face to this?

I shared my story. I was so depressed afterward because I didn't change a single vote. The next morning, I felt really, really blue about the state of the world. I just bared my soul. I had to call my dad on the way home from work that night to tell him beause I knew it would be in the news. Yet, 10 years to the day, as governor, I was able to repeal that law. It took 10 years. I tell this story because it is about never giving up. These fights are personal and they are powerful and they are important. They take longer sometimes than they should but there was purpose in that, too.

Alison Stewart: It made me look up the speech because I wanted to hear, and I wanted to hear your voice. You sound really a little bit nervous. I pulled a piece of it so we can listen to it. Let's listen to Gretchen Whitmer.

Governor Whitmer: I'm about to tell you something that I've not shared with many people in my life, but over 20 years ago, I was a victim of rape. Thank God it didn't result in a pregnancy because I can't imagine going through what I went through and then having to consider what to do about an unwanted pregnancy from an attacker. As a mother with two girls, the thought that they would ever go through something like I did keeps me up at night.

I thought this was all behind me. You know how tough I can be. The thought and the memory of that still haunts me. If this were law then and I had become pregnant, I would not be able to have coverage because of this. How extreme, how extreme does this measure need to be? I'm not the only woman in our state that has faced that horrible circumstance. I am not enjoying talking about it. It's something I've hidden for a long time, but I think you need to see the face of the women that you are impacting by this vote today.

Alison Stewart: What do you hear in your voice?

Governor Whitmer: Oh, I just, I can feel my heart up in my throat while I listen to that speech from almost 11 years ago. It was really scary and hard and sad and vulnerable. A lot of survivors really struggle to give voice to it and aren't in a position to. Once I found my voice, I feel like, since I can use it, I have a duty to do that. yes, I hear the pain.

Alison Stewart: You can hear your breathing heavy.

Governor Whitmer: Yes.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Michigan Governor, Gretchen Whitmer. The name of the book is True Gretch: What I've Learned about Life, Leadership, and Everything in Between. When the pandemic hit, states were on their own. You were calling for more federal guidance. You needed leadership, PPE. President Trump referred to you as, I call it the TWFM, that woman from Michigan. What did you think when you heard it?

Governor Whitmer: Well, I didn't really care what he called me. I was worried that he was going to have retribution. He didn't like it when I observed there was no national strategy. They were putting out misinformation. They were undermining the work we were doing to try to keep people safe. I needed PPE and so I went on the news asking for help. It hurt his feelings or he got angry, or whatever. My concern was that they would go out of their way to punish the people of Michigan because he didn't like me.

Alison Stewart: You clapped back every time he talked about you. What do you wish you could have added in hindsight?

Governor Whitmer: Well, I think, bullies are-- We all have to figure out how to deal with a bully at some point in our lifetimes. I was raised to know you never regret being kind. I also know that when someone is using something as a weapon, the best way to disarm them is take that weapon and make it your shield. That woman from Michigan became like a call to arms for women in Michigan. People started sending me t-shirts and sweatshirts made with that said, "That woman from Michigan." I've got coffee mugs and stickers.

Alison Stewart: It reminds me of when Senator Mitch McConnell called Senator Warren, "Nevertheless, she persisted," when she interrupted or Senator Harris said, "I'm speaking," to the vice president. Why do you think that woman from Michigan stuck?

Governor Whitmer: I think being a woman, I know that we get a lot more crap than our male counterparts did. Many of my male colleagues observed that during the pandemic that I was taking so much more heat than they were, even though we were doing much the same measures to keep people safe. Being a person from Michigan, I think we've got grits. I think it really galvanized people who were scared of the pandemic, who appreciated that I was taking all this heat to try to keep them safe. When we show up with our, that woman from Michigan t-shirts, and I see people in a crowd, it still happens to this day, it is joyful. We see one another and we support one another.

Alison Stewart: In your chapter, you never regret being kind. You share anecdotes about times when you found common ground with Republican leaders. Your experience in your first term, it wasn't all happy times as compared to now. What did you learn from that first term?

Governor Whitmer: Well, I was raised in a household. My dad was a Republican. He worked for the Republican governor when I was born. My mother worked for the Democratic attorney general. In our household, we could have robust discussions and they could be productive. Actually, people would feel good at the end of them because we did have shared values and we could agree on a set of facts. That doesn't happen very often today. As a governor, I've got a GSD, and that's get stuff done. [laughs] The S is something different in the book, you can see. I can't go tit for tat with every sleight that comes my way. I've got to stay focused on what matters.

What matters is the people of Michigan. I've got to sit at the table with someone who shared a stage with some of the men who wanted to plot to kidnap and kill me. I have to get a budget done. I can't just share insults back and forth. I do think carry that responsibility in all ways that I show up in this job. I think it keeps me above the fray and helps me get back to the table with people I got to work with.

Alison Stewart: Lets talk about the attack. This group of men, mostly from Munith, they were convicted of planning to kidnap you. They knew where your house was. They knew where you worked. It could have happened. What, first of all, did you think about citizens wanting to hurt you?

Governor Whitmer: It was really surprising. It was surprising because, as I said, I was doing a lot of the same actions other governors were. I'm trying to save people's lives, and people want to threaten mine because they don't want to wear a mask. It's hard to get your head around that. The first big protest in Michigan, people showed up with Confederate flags and nazi signage and likeness of me hanging from a noose.

In the book, there's a picture that I took from my office with my phone that said, "Half-wit," which is what Donald Trump, another sleight that he called me, "is why we have the Second Amendment," so a direct threat, essentially, people with long guns out there. I think that was the biggest surprise that asking you to wear a mask meant that 14 people were planning to kidnap and to kill me and deprive my daughters of their mom, not see the humanity in me. That was really, it shook me.

Alison Stewart: You revealed that your kids won't go back to your weekend house because the attackers knew where it was. They were going to blow up a bridge to keep responders away. Have you talked to them about returning there?

Governor Whitmer: Not yet. Not yet. It's understandable that they were concerned about it. They're pretty stoic like me. They take all the ups and downs with, I think, a measure of stoicism, but that was real. That was a place, that was our happy place, and now it has very different connotations, sadly.

Alison Stewart: Vice Presidential candidate, JD Vance, he was in Michigan July 20th, and he was riffing and he said your name came up and people started to boo. He said, "Obviously, Gretchen Whitmer is a problem," and he wanted to go on to talk about NAFTA, but the crowd still booed. What would you say to the crowd that continued booing and kept going with that?

Governor Whitmer: I think right now to hear the former president and Republican stakeholders and office holders to say, "Let's bring down the temperature after the shooting in Pennsylvania." I'm glad that Donald Trump was not killed that day. I'm sad that there was a man who was and others were injured. I've been asking people to bring down the temperature for three years. I've been the target of their rhetoric, of the whipping people into a frenzy, and focusing violence against me and my family. I'm glad that they're finally speaking that, but you can't just say bring down the temperature when it's, all of a sudden, turned your way. We all have a responsibility to do that.

I would say I like to understand what's motivating people and how do we actually get to a place where we're talking about making people's lives better instead of grievance and ugliness and targeting one another.

Alison Stewart: Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer is my guest. The name of her book is True Gretch: What I've Learned about Life, Leadership, and Everything in Between. Now, you didn't know that VP Harris would be your party's candidate. A lot of your book talks about blended family, and about your blended family. What is something that only a person from a blended family really knows.

Governor Whitmer: The genuine love that you can have for children that are not biologically yours. Children that you married into. When you marry a partner who has adult children or children who are growing up, you're taking on a responsibility. You're marrying them as well. I think that families look very different all across this country and that's a good thing. We should honor and celebrate that. I love it that her stepkids call her Momala. [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: We got a text that says, "It's been so wonderful lately to hear from fellow Gen Xers, Kamala, Gretchen, and others say things that I would say, something reasonable." There's something very Gen X in your book. You have a playlist. You got Guns N' Roses, Eminem, that makes sense, Alanis Morissette. There's one song from Madame Gandhi. What was it about? One, you wanted to put the playlist in the book. What is it about these songs and when do you play them?

Governor Whitmer: Well, the Madame Gandhi song is Top Knot Turn Up. It's about a woman putting her hair up on top of her head and getting stuff done. It's just got a great beat and it's joyful and fun. I think that's maybe a through line. All of these songs, I think, I've played at different points in my life where I needed a little pick me up, needed a little extra energy to get through something. I think that's what this playlist is all about.

Alison Stewart: True Gretch: What I've Learned about Life, Leadership, and Everything in Between. Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, thanks for being with us.

Governor Whitmer: Thank you.

[00:18:48] [END OF AUDIO]

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