Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. In the new series, The Agency, Michael Fassbender plays an undercover CIA agent named Martian. Of course, that's not his real name, and most of what he tells people about his life isn't real either. That's the crux of what's happening in this thriller. There are lots of people in his orbit, but whether or not they say who they are is kind of unclear. Like his lover when he was undercover in Africa, a professor who, surprise, just happens to be in London at the same time he is. Is she also a spy? Are his bosses really looking out for his best interests? And does his handler know that he has been lying to her? What we do know is that Martian, AKA Paul Lewis, was abruptly pulled from his post in Africa after six years, and he's so in love with this woman, Samia, that he might just blow his and everyone else's cover. Oh, and he has a daughter who resents him a little bit. Today we have Michael Fassbender in studio with us to discuss. Welcome to the show.

Michael Fassbender: Thanks, Alison.

Alison Stewart: You've played such a variety of roles. What does a project need to get you interested?

Michael Fassbender: I think, obviously, the writing, and then who's going to be directing it. When the project came to me at the beginning of the year, the writing was great, the Butterworths-- there was a blueprint from the original series, Le Bureau, which was a French series.

Alison Stewart: I'm so glad you said it. I couldn't say it. [laughs]

Michael Fassbender: Me neither. Each time I'm saying it, I'm like, "Buroh-- Bureau, oui, oui." I was a fan of that series, and I knew we had a really great blueprint with that. Then Joe Wright was directing, then we had Paramount+ with all their energy and resources, 101 Studios, and Smokehouse, so there was a lot of experienced people, and then the cast started developing. But it's usually hopefully trying to find something I haven't done before, characters that, hopefully when audiences watch them, they sort of provoke questions, they're provocative characters some way or another.

Alison Stewart: The Butterworths-- Of course, Jez Butterworth is an award winning director. He has The Hills of California. He was here a couple weeks ago. He's with his brother, and Joe Wright, as you mentioned, directing. When you first spoke with them, what kind of details did they want to convey about this story?

Michael Fassbender: They didn't really tell me, I was left to my own devices.

Alison Stewart: Oh, no. [chuckles]

Michael Fassbender: No, we didn't really-- I didn't discuss too much about the characters. I mean, I had an initial meeting with Joe Wright, and we did discuss the sort of overall world that it is. And I think, to me, it was fascinating, just this sort of world that they operate in, and then why would you want to become a spy? Because for me, the sacrifice is so all-encompassing. I mean, all of his relationships are left in tatters, really. There's no real way to have an honest relationship. That was kind of, for me, the first question, like, what sort of person goes into this industry? And I found that for a lot of the cases, I think it's people that want to make a difference. They go in with the best intentions to try and make a change, a good change, protect their country. But then what happens when you go in green with that sort of idealism, what's it like then 20 years down the line? What have you become? When your moral compass gets so skewed by the things you have to do, where are you at down the line? Which is where we find Martian.

Alison Stewart: What is he like when we first meet him? What's important to him?

Michael Fassbender: That's a good question. I guess what's important, first and foremost, is that he doesn't get caught. I think that's sort of at the essence of his character. Because for me, I guess the first thing when I was looking at was episode one, he lies to his daughter about the apartment that he's in. For me, it seemed like it wasn't necessary. It's such a throwaway lie, and I thought, "Okay, well, he's just sort of woven lies into his reality, and I don't think he knows the difference." Because it reminded me of that scene in Apocalypse Now where Martin Sheen is in the hotel waiting to get called on his next mission. He's like, "I'm getting weak here while the enemy is in a hole eating a bowl of rice and staying sharp." I thought, well, maybe he's doing that. Maybe he just has sort of-- continually, he's found a way to make lies and reality the same thing.

Alison Stewart: What is important to him?

Michael Fassbender: Like I say, I think not getting caught because his--

Alison Stewart: That's the most important thing to him?

Michael Fassbender: I think--

Alison Stewart: Oh, interesting.

Michael Fassbender: If he's in Addis, and he's been there six years, which is like a bit of a stretch, you know? An undercover, non-official especially, wouldn't be in the field that long. That's a bit of a stretch, and so definitely when he comes back, people should be concerned about his well-being. But I think what's important to him, and the struggle for me in the story, is his soul, his humanity. He's trying to grapple and find that again through the relationship with Samia and through the relationship with his daughter, who he hasn't seen much of in six years. So it's his job and these two personal relationships, and that's, I think at the crux of the story that's there for the character, this battle for his soul.

Alison Stewart: Is that why he is so determined to shake his tail, his CIA tail who were going to watch him and make sure he's okay?

Michael Fassbender: For me, I thought that was a sociopathic tendency, and I think he's definitely got them. And one of them is that the rules are fine, but they don't apply to him. I think because he was on his own out in Addis for so long, for six years, he was his own boss. Now he's got to come home and answer to people, and he doesn't like that. He knows better, and yes, he's-- Basically, there's a resentment there that he has to come back and follow orders from some people that he doesn't feel deserve that authority over him.

Alison Stewart: I'm going to play a clip from The Agency to get a sense of Martian's character and his attitude. He's being evaluated by an agency psychologist, and he's not at all convinced that she's there to help. This is from The Agency.

[playing a clip from The Agency]

Martian: The nation needs protecting. It builds an organization, the CIA. This department seeks us out, targets us, individuals who need something, something they can't get anyplace else. It nurtures us, weans us, feeds us, and sends us out into the world to behave in entirely unhealthy, devious, deviant, dangerous ways. And then when we come back, it asks us how we feel. And all the while, it's hoping we don't suddenly flip and become well and can no longer do the job.

Alison Stewart: That's so interesting when you think about what he's saying to the psychologist.

Michael Fassbender: Yes, because I think it's advantageous to be sociopathic in this kind of job, because to be able to lie so indiscriminately and to do the things that you do, and then to get a good night's sleep-- Because I think you need rest, you need to be sharp, you need to get that sleep to be able to function. And so, yes, I think that he's sort of highlighting the hypocrisy of this situation, where it's a good thing that he is sort of somewhat insane.

Alison Stewart: I'm thinking about the Butterworths, because they write plays. This is a little more dialogue-heavy than Shoot 'Em Up.

Michael Fassbender: Tell me about it. I was like, "Oh man, I gotta learn 10 hours of dialogue." I spent a lot of time just in a room learning lines.

Alison Stewart: What appeals to you about a structure of a show where you actually have that much dialogue actually in a TV series?

Michael Fassbender: It doesn't appeal to me at all.

Alison Stewart: Not at all?

Michael Fassbender: I prefer not to speak, and I told him that. Hopefully, next season we'll see a change. No, I think it's just the nature of it. You know, I've done other films where there's not a lot of dialogue, it's whatever suits the scenario, the character, the story. But that was my first time doing a TV show and being sort of the lead in it, where I did have to tackle that. It's like, okay, this is a 10-hour journey as opposed to an hour and a half or two hours, so it was me in a tent learning lines. Unfortunately, I'm not very smart, so it takes me a long time to learn lines. [chuckles] Yes, it was a lot of hours just sort of repeating.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Michael Fassbender, star of The Agency. It's on Paramount+. He's playing a CIA agent based in London, dealing with the emotional and the psychological effects of being undercover. He is a parent to a teenage girl. Teenagers are a problem already. [laughs] How would you describe their dynamic?

Michael Fassbender: Well, I think the dynamic-- I love India Fowler, who plays the character Poppy, my daughter. She's amazing. I think there's a real connection between them, because I think there's similarities there. You know, she's smart, she's private, she's onto him. In fact, she sort of finds his secret hiding place. I think the sad thing is he's missed her journey becoming a sort of young woman, which she is when we find her now. All those years have gone, so for him, it's about trying to find that reconnection with her, but I think they're very similar as personality types. She'd be a good spy too.

Alison Stewart: We'll have more with Michael Fassbender after the break. This is All Of It.

[music]

Alison Stewart: You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest in studio is Michael Fassbender. He's the star of The Agency. You're with Jeffrey Wright, who's great, Richard Gere-- The scenes, particularly between you and Jeffrey, are especially great. What do you find that they each bring to the role?

Michael Fassbender: Well, I think they're very opposites. You know, Jeffrey's character, Henry, is very much by the book, and it's probably why he won't get to the top. I think there is a world where the CIA, at least in my understanding, kind of rewards people that play outside the rule book in a way, and I think he is very much like, you've got to stay between the lines. Otherwise, if you start breaching those lines, then chaos will ensue one way or the other at some point.

I think Martian likes to operate in a place of chaos. I think he's sort of rudderless when we first find him, but as more crises land on his lap, his own personal ones and what's happening within the agency and the missions that they're trying to accomplish, he is kind of in his element. That's where you see him focus. He knows what he's doing, he's very proficient, but he doesn't, again, adhere to the rules. He's kind of the opposite, but there is a respect between them, because Henry is somebody, unlike some of the others I was saying that haven't been in the field like Martian has. Henry has, so there's a previous relationship there, there's respect and admiration, but the cracks start to happen midway in the season. And as we get towards the end of it, you can start to see there could be trouble between these guys.

Alison Stewart: Your love interest is played by Jodie Turner-Smith, who said in a recent interview, "Michael Fassbender could have chemistry with a brick wall."

Michael Fassbender: She's very perceptive, Jodie. [laughs] Well, that's-- I mean, that's so sweet of her to say. I mean, again, when the cast was assembling and Jodie's name came up, I was just like, she's perfect. You know, she's so good. Obviously, a lot of her work is out there now, and the diversity that she can bring to each character.

Alison Stewart: Oh, Queen & Slim is a great movie. Great movie.

Michael Fassbender: Yes, and what she does in Bad Monkey, it's like she's just got, again, great natural instincts. She's super smart.

Alison Stewart: Did you guys test together, or no?

Michael Fassbender: You know what? They asked me, "Do you want to do a test?" I saw her reading, and I was like, "We're good." I was like, "It's going to be fine," which I guess was a little risky, because obviously, that relationship is the crux of that story that we're introduced to, but I just had a feeling, and we got on. We hit it off immediately.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting, because Martian tells his handler that it was a terrible breakup-- "It was a terrible breakup with this woman. It was horrible. She walked out, she caused a scene." None of that happened. Why is he dishonest with his handler?

Michael Fassbender: Because I think he's just-- Like I said before, it's sort of like dishonesty has become a defense mechanism and something that's keeping him alive. What I found interesting is like, the lines between who he's working for and with and who his enemies are get blurred, so it's almost like the agency itself is an enemy to him. You see like the first couple of episodes where he's doing everything to lose his tail, there's a resentment there. He knows he's being listened to, his apartment's bugged, so it's almost like everyone is a potential threat. And he keeps his own reality close to his chest because of what may come down the line, how that relationship might unfold, or their knowledge of it. So, yes, that's kind of the interesting thing about him, it's just that he's just a big liar. [laughs] He's so deceptive with everyone, you know?

Alison Stewart: Well, we find out early on that he has some suspicions about his love interest. Jeffrey Wright's character, Henry, is just like, "Just leave it. Just leave it alone." But even though there are red flags kind of everywhere, why can't he let go of this?

Michael Fassbender: Love.

Alison Stewart: It's that simple?

Michael Fassbender: It's that simple. I think she has awoken something in him that he realizes he's lost, and it's become something that he needs. He knows that if he loses that, he might lose himself completely. I think his personality and the way he operates is somewhat like a ghost. He sort of moves into people's lives in and out, and this one, he doesn't want to lose because I think he realizes if she goes, then he loses that human element of himself. But, yes, love, I think it's down to that.

Alison Stewart: He's also, I should say, he's pretty good at his job.

Michael Fassbender: Yes.

Alison Stewart: He's very, very good at his job within the CIA.

Michael Fassbender: Because I think he's very good at compartmentalizing. I think that's another key thing if you're doing that job, to be able to isolate individual things like his personal problems. A lot is happening in his personal life that they're not aware of, that he's hiding from the agency. And then there's serious issues that need to-- You know, they've lost another undercover operative, and they need to get him back. How he handles that and how he manages to isolate all these issues and deal with them individually and think on his feet. I think also that ability to make decisions without an emotional anchor. It's like, "This is the best thing that needs to be done. There will be collateral damage, and if that means human life, then so be it." Again, another sociopathic trait that he has that makes him very effective in those high-pressure situations.

Alison Stewart: Not that you're a sociopath, but-- [laughs]

Michael Fassbender: Yes-- No, I read a book. Have you ever read the book The Psychopath Test?

Alison Stewart: No. What is it?

Michael Fassbender: It's basically to see if you're a psychopath or not. While I was reading, I was like, "Hmm, recognize some of that. Recognize some of that." And I was like, "Oh my God, I hope I'm not a psychopath." At that point in the book, it says, "If you're worried about being a psychopath, you're not a psychopath," so this is a good thing. You know, I think we all have certain personality traits. Like, if you read that book, you're like, "Okay, there's elements of it," but I'm not-- I don't think I'm a sociopath, no, but I've played a couple of them, because this guy is kind of The Killer, which I did-- You know, the film with David Fincher, the last film I did. It's similar. He's definitely a sociopath as well. There's sociopathic tendencies to both these guys. I guess the thing about Martian is he's trying to find that humanity within himself. That's the sort of struggle, I guess.

Alison Stewart: Do you find yourself with your work making those compartments, like, "This is my personal life, and then this is my work."

Michael Fassbender: Yes. I always wondered what it would be like when I had a family, because whenever I was working, it was all work, and it was about work, and it was a very selfish sort of approach. I can't do that now because I got two little kids and time to be spent with them. I found I'm more effective in the times that I have available to each thing. So I'm like, "Okay, these are the hours that I'm going to work. I'm going to knuckle down and really get good work done," and then when I'm with the kids, hopefully switch off and be present with them. Just have to manage time better, really.

Alison Stewart: That's gotta give you some sort of confidence in each department. "I'm a really good dad when I'm a dad, and I'm a really good actor when I'm an actor."

Michael Fassbender: Well, I guess having kids, for me, it's all about them now, so it takes away-- Before, I was all about career and work. Now, everything is sort of geared towards them. It actually takes away a lot of that pressure in some respects, because now it's all about them, and then I can hopefully go and do a good job at work, but they're the most important thing.

Alison Stewart: Does it make you a better actor?

Michael Fassbender: Probably worse.

Alison Stewart: Worse?

Michael Fassbender: [laughs] No, I'm just kidding. I have no idea. I mean, I think sometimes [crosstalk]--

Alison Stewart: I mean, to have that kind of emotion towards another person.

Michael Fassbender: Yes, or just watching them, because they're the best actors. Because I think great actors are great observers, and I think that's a problem that I found when you sort of become aware to the public or you become famous in any way, you can no longer be that person observing. You're trying to find those moments where you can do that. Like, I've noticed it with both my boys, they spend their whole time just watching. They're watching you, and they're like, "I know this guy. I know his weak points," and so they learn how to act very young-- Oh, crying works, but crying with tears is more effective than crying without tears. You know, it's all those little details. So observing him and his love of Frej-- because the other guy is still like super young-- the enjoyment and enthusiasm of just playing games, I think that's something that I always need to remember approaching work.

Alison Stewart: You have another spy film coming out with Cate Blanchett. I think the trailer dropped today. What do you like about spy series?

Michael Fassbender: Nothing--

Alison Stewart: You don't like them?

Michael Fassbender: You know, it's funny, it just-- The two of them sort of came about. I mean, Soderbergh approached me first--

Alison Stewart: And you say yes when Soderbergh approaches you.

Michael Fassbender: Yes. You know, we'd obviously had a great experience doing another spy thing called Haywire way back, and then the script came, and I was like, "I'm in." And then The Agency came, and it was then about making both of them work, so I literally went from Black Bag straight into The Agency, but it was just pure coincidence that they're both spy things. It's funny, because there's a scene in The Agency where I get this character, Danny, who's played by Saura Lightfoot-Leon, and she's going to be the operative that heads out to-- Where does she go?

Alison Stewart: Iran?

Michael Fassbender: Yes, exactly, Iran. And so I go over there, get the phone numbers, job descriptions for those two guys. When I was training for Haywire for Soderbergh, this guy got me to do exactly the same thing in a bar. I think that's just how he got phone numbers from people, very dodgy. I was thinking to myself, "This isn't right."

Alison Stewart: This guy--

Michael Fassbender: Yes. And then it was also like, we'd go into a bar or a restaurant, and he says, "Okay, this is what you do, I want you to start profiling people. Two people at the bar there, who are they?"

I was like, "Okay, looks like a second date, or looks like they've been married for 10 years."

Then he's like, "Who are the individuals sitting at the bar without anybody, and where are the threats possible?"

And to always go into a room and always find the optimum seat, even when you're not working, he could never get rid of it. So wherever he goes into a restaurant or bar, he'll find a seat where he can see the whole room. Nobody's going to come from behind him.

Alison Stewart: Don't like that--

Michael Fassbender: Yes, you're in the worst place.

Alison Stewart: I'm in a bad place. [laughs]

Michael Fassbender: You should be right here. I'm good here. [chuckles] And so I learned a lot back then, and those things sort of stayed. You know, where do you position yourself in a room, and that game of profiling-- Okay, that guy's 27 years old. What sort of profession is he in? He could be a threat. Or same with a woman, 27, of a certain age, where you think, "Okay, that's a potential threat."

Alison Stewart: I want to ask you about Kneecap in our last minute. This comes up three times in my life, the word-- the movie Kneecap. What role do you play? 30 seconds.

Michael Fassbender: I play the dad of one of the guys in Kneecap. I play the father of Nisha. I am sort of on the run from the authorities because I'm an ex-IRA member. I haven't seen him in a long time, and we've drifted apart, but I'm coming back in his life.

Alison Stewart: That's obviously about rappers, that movie--

Michael Fassbender: [unintelligible 00:22:57]

Alison Stewart: [laughs] You have hip hop chops, you can dance, you can do the worm. Who's your favorite hip hop artist currently?

Michael Fassbender: Currently? Ooh, good question. I guess Kendrick Lamar, but my favorite is always Notorious BIG, always my favorite.

Alison Stewart: You can watch Michael Fassbender, the star of The Agency. It's on Paramount+ with Showtime, new episodes happen every Friday. It was really a pleasure to have you in the studio. We really appreciate you taking the time today.

Michael Fassbender: Likewise. Thanks so much, Alison.

Alison Stewart: There's more All Of It on the way-- Our latest edition of Full Bio, it's about the the book, The Name of This Band is R.E.M. Author Peter Ames Carlin joins us.