[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Alison Stewart: This is All of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in Soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. On today's show, we'll hear from the National Book Award winner Percival Everett, whose novel, James, is a retelling of Huck Finn. We'll also speak with director Errol Morris and reporter Jacob Soboroff about their new documentary, Separated, and we'll mark the 30th anniversary of the Nolita Institution Cafe Gitane. That is the plan, so let's get this started with actor Marianne Jean-Baptiste.

[music]

In the corner house of a quiet London street lives Pansy Deacon, a tempest of a woman who can't seem to be happy no matter what she does. She obsessively cleans the house, she lashes out at anyone in her path, and when she's not doing that, she's in bed. Sometimes she's funny, and sometimes she's sad. She has her husband and her only son walking on eggshells, her sister is flummoxed, and she is that person you run into the store and she will go on and on. Let's listen to a clip of Pansy at her own dinner table.

[playing clip from Hard Truths]

Pansy Deacon: You can't go in or out of a supermarket without being harassed by those grinning, cheerful charity workers begging you for money for their stupid causes. Why they got to skin their teeth like that? Cheerful, grinning people. Can't stand them. Loitering out there demanding your hard-earned cash. It's a scam. They're scamming people. Can't trust them. They want your phone number, your email. I asked one of them, I said, "Why do you want my postcode? I might as well just give you my front door key so you can break into my house, teeth out my things, and kill my only child." And nobody calls the police on them. Police won't come anyway, they're too busy harassing black boys walking.

Alison Stewart: Pansy is the main character of the latest film, Hard Truths, written and directed by Mike Leigh, and stars our next guest, Marianne Jean-Baptiste. It premiered at the Toronto Film Festival in September, and opens in select theaters this Friday. Jean-Baptiste was just named Best Actress by the New York Film Critics Circle. Of course, she's worked with Leigh for nearly 30 years. Who remembers Secrets & Lies? I do. It earned her both an Academy Award nomination and a BAFTA nod. It is so nice to see you, Marianne.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Yes, thank you. Nice to see you, too.

Alison Stewart: You've done countless television roles, seven seasons on Without a Trace, you've done movies. What does a project need to have for you to say yes.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Oh, gosh, it's got to be something that's going to challenge me. I've got to feel like I'm going to have a good time, you know, but learn something and shift something in myself.

Alison Stewart: The way that Mike Leigh works is he doesn't really-- There's not really a script, at least initially.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: There is no script, no.

Alison Stewart: There is no script. You come with an idea, a list of ideas. What ideas did you bring towards Pansy? When you first started, heard about Pansy, and then you brought the ideas.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Well, you don't actually bring any ideas either. The whole thing is about--

Alison Stewart: A list?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: The list is about real people you know in life.

Alison Stewart: Oh, interesting.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: You can't be related to them. It could be somebody that you walk past on your way to the metro or what have you, but there's something about them that intrigues you. You have a list of people that you go in and you discuss that list of people with him, and then the list gets smaller and smaller and smaller until you sort of land on about five of those people. Then you start to try and merge them into one person with their characteristics. You remove some, you put some in from here and there and there, and then that is really the beginning of the character that you start building, and then you go on. I mean, look, rehearsals were like three months long. It takes a long time to cook these characters.

Alison Stewart: Could you give us an example of something that made it into Pansy, something that was on your list?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Oh, gosh. I think you wouldn't be able to recognize any of the people from Pansy, but what you do recognize is the stuff that Mike Leigh does, the Mike Leigh magic. When you're discussing these characters, he's in charge of disappointments, of things that hurt, things that go wrong. Anything you can plan for yourself as a person, you can plan for the character, but any of other stuff, he decides. So I think it's his fault-- What you see on camera is like her fears, her disappointments, her heartbreaks.

Alison Stewart: What is it that you wanted to explore with Pansy?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Oh, gosh, it's the process, really. It is the process of creating a character. You use so much of yourself, do you know what I mean? It's a full body experience when you go through the Mike Leigh process. So really, I just wanted that. I just wanted to be in a place where you're collaborating with the production designer, you're collaborating with costume and makeup. They're not just people you meet every morning and say hi and hang up your clothes. You're actually discussing, "What would Pansy wear? Well, she wouldn't wear that, or she wouldn't wear that, she'd stick to those colors." Everybody sort of works together.

Alison Stewart: As an actor, you were kind of-- You said in one interview that you were alone for a lot of the production of this film, and it must be a lot to be alone with Pansy.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Oh God, yes.

Alison Stewart: So what was it like to sort of summon up all your energy to put into Pansy, especially when you're alone?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Bloody exhausting is what it is, but when I was alone-- I mean, Mike's very strict about coming out of character. When you're not in character, come out, do you know what I mean? So you're not taking home the whole weight of what Pansy is, but obviously, there's still some residual intrusive thoughts, for example, with her. But I'd go home and I'd do things that she didn't like doing, like cook. I enjoy cooking, so I'd go and I'd, you know--

Alison Stewart: Make a mess. [chuckles]

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Yes, make a mess. Leave things around.

Alison Stewart: When you are describing Pansy to someone, how would you describe her if nobody had ever met Pansy? Oh, this is Pansy, and she is-- What?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: She's tricky, you know. She's not easy. Yes. Poor Pansy.

Alison Stewart: Poor Pansy. There were times when-- Sometimes she's really funny.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Yes.

Alison Stewart: And then other times, you really feel like, oh my gosh, there's something that-- She might be ill, she might be wrong, she might be confused. How did you negotiate the very funny sides of her and the sharper sides of her?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Well, the thing is, I've got a great sense of humor. Pansy doesn't. She's funny, but she doesn't mean to be, so basically, it was really about using her imagination, using her observation, because she's very observant. It's just that the things that she observes that we might observe, we might find them cute, but she finds them irritating. So it was really playing with that, going back and forth. Going, "Okay, what would she think about that? What would she think about this?"

Alison Stewart: My guest is Marianne Jean-Baptiste. She's in the new film, Hard Truths, which is about a woman expressing emotional and mental distress. It's in theaters this Friday. You know, when she's talking about-- Well, first of all, does Pansy exist post-pandemic, or pre-pandemic, or during the pandemic?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: She's post-pandemic.

Alison Stewart: That's a big part of it, right?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Well-- I mean, they lived through it, but if you imagine Pansy from watching the film, she probably was pretty much the same before lockdown. [laughs] She hated everything before lockdown, and she hates them even more now.

Alison Stewart: Her husband and her son, they seem afraid of her a little bit. A little bit. They're certainly exasperated by her, but they don't leave, they don't leave the home. Why do you think they stay?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: I would certainly say in the case of Moses, the son, that he doesn't see that he has a choice. He's just quite dependent. The husband, I think it's habit, you know--

Alison Stewart: It's habit for Curtley. Like, "Oh, she's going to do it, she'll talk over it, and it'll happen again."

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Yes, it's habit. It's the way he's lived for so long and-- Yes. I mean, we see couples like that all the time, and you kind of go, "Oh my God, they don't even speak."

Alison Stewart: It was interesting with Moses, because he's a 22-year-old, he's living at home, but he's still reading kids books, he's kind of playing with kids toys, he gets bullied by the young guys on the street. What do you imagine is the root of Moses? He's not really engaging with the world.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Well, I think it's probably to do with Pansy and the way that he's been brought up, and her demands, do you know what I mean? Because she certainly does want the best for him, but her methods are questionable. I just think he's been beaten down.

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's interesting.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Yes, I think he's been beaten down. He's not got any confidence.

Alison Stewart: Yes. It's funny, because the family is kind of dysfunctional.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Oh, kind of? I mean, they're dysfunctional, there's no "kind of" about it. [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: What keeps them from addressing the dysfunction?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: I think it's habit again. I think it's that thing whereby we know that a friend or a relative is an alcoholic, or there's some other issue, and we kind of skirt around it. We kind of don't want to upset them by telling them that they ought to go and get help or what have you, and so we just get on with it. I think they just get on with it.

Alison Stewart: Pansy's sister, Chantelle, she's a single mom, she's a hairstylist, a hair braider. She listens to her clients' problems all day long. She seems to be the only one who has compassion for her sister. Why does she listen to her sister?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Well, they were brought up in the same home. I think that, again, she's just grown up with this woman who's, first of all, this young woman, and now-- She loves her dearly. It's obvious that she loves her sister, but-- Yes, I don't think she'd ever turn her back on Pansy.

Alison Stewart: How is she trying to help her? How is she trying to help Pansy?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: I mean, she's kind of telling her to cheer up, which isn't very effective if somebody's got some really deep issues and are dealing with depression. I think she just tries to be there for Pansy as best as she can, you know, but that in itself is not easy.

Alison Stewart: Why not? Just because of who Pansy is?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Because Pansy's going to complain, and Pansy's going to blame, and Pansy's going to, you know, kick off.

Alison Stewart: You know, it's interesting, because Chantelle's daughters seem like they have it all together, but not really, as we learn.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Yes.

Alison Stewart: I thought that was an interesting part of the film. Sort of the family dynamics, because they seem like they're great, but they're not really great actually.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: They're not great. Well, one's not as open as you would have hoped that she would be. Do you know what I mean? And you go, "Ooh, what's this about?"

Alison Stewart: Yes, there's an interesting scene-- I don't want to give too much away, but it's Mother's Day, and all the characters are in the same room. Would you tell me a little bit about filming that? Because everybody's at a different place in that room emotionally.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Yes, they are. I mean, it was a tough day because I think it was one of the hottest days in London this summer. I had on about four layers of clothing, so we were sat there, like baking in that room. But what I can say, it is quite a heavy scene. Every time we had a break, we'd go off to this little green room and roar with laughter and make jokes, to just dispel the tension and all that stuff.

Alison Stewart: It was interesting because-- and correct me if I'm wrong, Pansy doesn't really speak during the family meeting.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Yes, and it's like the first time.

Alison Stewart: Yes, it's the first time in the film she's quiet. [laughs] So, first of all, for you as an actor, yay-- [laughs]

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: It was brilliant to just sit there and not say anything.

Alison Stewart: As you were sitting there and you were listening to everything going on around you, what was Pansy thinking, and then also, what were you thinking?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Well, Pansy was sitting there just thinking that she just didn't want to be there. She really wanted to go home and just lie down, because she has a problem with sleep. You see her in the film being woken up constantly, do you know what I mean?

Alison Stewart: The first thing in the scene is her just screaming in bed, right?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Yes. She's always being woken up by something or someone, so-- I mean, at this point, she's just exhausted and wants to go home and curl up and think about what's just happened at the cemetery.

Alison Stewart: This is a hard question, does Pansy recognize that she has a bit of mental illness?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: No.

Alison Stewart: She doesn't know?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: No.

Alison Stewart: She just decides that, this is who I am, and this is the way I'm going to be?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Yes, I guess. I mean, it's that thing where you just get on with it. If from a young age nobody's paid any attention to it, hasn't called anything up, you just get on with it.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Marianne Jean-Baptiste. She's the star of the new film, Hard Truths. The film is out to the critics, necessarily, to the public, will happen on Friday, but it's already won some honors. Congratulations to you.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: What do you think people are seeing in this story that they're relating to?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: I think they're seeing their relatives, some of their friends. The people that they have in their life that they sometimes try and avoid, feel that they have to manage. I think they're seeing that-- Everybody's got a family, you know, so it's seeing things from different perspectives. Like, two women raised by the same mother can have such different experiences of what their upbringing was.

Alison Stewart: That's interesting, because Pansy's house is very clean and sterile, versus her sister's house, a lot a plants growing, and they have a beer on the porch and everything [crosstalk]-- I'm sorry, continue.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Yes-- So it is about understanding the differences and embracing them almost, and having compassion for that difficult person who's obviously in pain.

Alison Stewart: What do you want people to take away from the film?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Just to have a bit of compassion and pause, you know-- When you're berated by that person when you haven't done anything and you think, "What the hell?" Just realize, it's not about me, it's about them. They're going through something. If I rise to that, then it's going to get into a fight potentially, so just let it go.

Alison Stewart: What are you working on now?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: I'm working on talking about this film non-stop, and it's great.

Alison Stewart: [chuckles] Do you like the whole press tour? I know it's a little bit grueling, but--

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: It's been lovely. It is grueling, but it's been-- The film has been so well received, and we had such a great time making it, so it's like a celebration of that.

Alison Stewart: You guys look like you're having fun. In all the videos I've seen with you and Mike Leigh, you look like you're actually enjoying it.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Why?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: We have a similar sense of humor, and I think we just feel quite grateful for this, to be able to share this with audiences.

Alison Stewart: The name of the film is Hard Truths. It'll be a limited release on December 6th, streaming in January. My guest has been Marianne Jean-Baptiste. Thank you so much for joining us.

Marianne Jean-Baptiste: Thank you.