Tiffany Hanssen: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Tiffany Hanssen in for Alison Stewart. All right, close your eyes. Imagine a typical cover of a romance novel from back in the day. A couple, very swoon-worthy. The man is tall, handsome, maybe you get a peek at his chest. A woman has long, flowing hair. Well, that was then and this is now. The genre is opening up. It's featuring gay couples and trans characters, and the reader response to that has been overwhelmingly positive.

Books like The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller, Delilah Green Doesn't Care by Ashley Herring Blake are both on the bestseller list. Red, White, & Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston was turned into a popular Amazon Prime movie. According to a 2023 article from the New York Times, readership for LGBTQ romance novels has seen a 740% increase over a five-year period, and this continues to grow in 2025. We can suffice it to say that gay and lesbian romance novels are having a bit of a moment.

Joining us to talk about the genre and the trends is Leah Koch. She is the co-owner of The Ripped Bodice, a romance bookstore in Park Slope. We're going to talk with her about her favorite queer books. Listeners, we want to hear from you as well. Are you a frequent romance reader? What is your favorite LGBTQ romance book? What do you recommend for people asking for gay or lesbian or trans romances? You can call us. 212-433-9692, 212-433-9692. First, Leah, welcome.

Leah Koch: Thank you so much for having me.

Tiffany Hanssen: All right, let's talk about The Ripped Bodice. You started it with your sister, if I'm to believe what's written on my notes here. Did you do that because you're both avid romance readers? Yes, I see you nodding.

Leah Koch: Yes, definitely. We opened in 2016, and we were the first romance bookstore in the United States. I think there were two things that we loved, and they were romance novels and independent bookstores. The naivete of youth led us to believe that we were the people to make this happen for the first time in the United States.

Tiffany Hanssen: We should say that first store was in LA, right?

Leah Koch: That's correct, yes. Our original store is in Los Angeles, which is still obviously open. Then our second location is in Park Slope, Brooklyn.

Tiffany Hanssen: I mentioned this sort of sweeping change in the romance genre that's been happening in the last five years. You've now been at this for a while. I'm Just curious how you see success changing for romance writers, how you see the popularity of the genre, just romance writ large, how you see that evolving from the time you guys started with that one store in LA to today.

Leah Koch: Yes, it's pretty incredible. Sometimes I think that romance has hit as high as it's going to go, and I'm just proved wrong time and time again. I would have said when we opened in 2016, almost 10 years ago now, that romance was huge and a financial juggernaut, which is true. To look at how far we've come over the past 10 years is pretty incredible. I think what a really good indication for us of the mainstreaming of romance was when the New York Times hired a dedicated romance reviewer. I think romance readers--

Tiffany Hanssen: When was that?

Leah Koch: Oh, gosh, I want to say maybe 2019.

Tiffany Hanssen: Okay.

Leah Koch: Please, somebody fact-check me on that.

Tiffany Hanssen: No, but not yesterday.

Leah Koch: No, no, a couple of years after we opened.

Tiffany Hanssen: Okay, got you.

Leah Koch: That felt like a really monumental moment for us, that sort of mainstream recognition. Not that we need that, but it's nice in some ways.

Tiffany Hanssen: As a bookstore owner, you straddle that line between readers. You have your interaction with the people that come in the store and you also interact with publishers, I would assume, right?

Leah Koch: Absolutely.

Tiffany Hanssen: How have you seen the publishing industry and publishers change their view of romance?

Leah Koch: Listen, the publishing industry moves pretty slowly, especially traditional publishing. Indie publishing, self-publishing, that can move at the speed of light. Oftentimes, those more non-traditional models of publishing are really on the forefront, especially when it comes to responding really quickly to what readers are asking for. The biggest change has just been the amount of queer romance that is being published by traditional publishers. Probably 10 years ago, maybe one a year, maybe, if that. Now it's multiple a month from a lot of publishers.

I think as much as I give them a hard time about being slow and everything, they do respond ultimately to sales and to financials. This is a business. The more people buy things like queer romance, the more they're going to publish.

Tiffany Hanssen: Listeners, we are talking, in this Pride Month, about LGBTQ romance books. We're talking with the owner of The Ripped Bodice. It's a romance bookstore in Park Slope and in Los Angeles, but we're going to talk about the one in Park Slope, with Leah Koch. We're looking for your recommendations as well. Do you have a favorite author? Are there certain books that you go back to? Because I imagine, Leah, sometimes people read and reread and reread these stories, right?

Leah Koch: Absolutely.

Tiffany Hanssen: Do you have a favorite? Call us with your recommendation. 212-433-9692, 212-433-9692. Leah, the first text we have coming in here, "Rita Mae Brown, always and forever the best." Tell us a little bit about what you know about Rita Mae Brown.

Leah Koch: That's somebody who knows their history. That is an author who's been writing a long time. I'm not going to guess the number of years because I'm going to get it wrong. It's interesting. I think when people think of queer romance from probably before 10 years ago, a lot of times they're thinking about things that maybe aren't as what we would consider traditional romance these days. I'm thinking about James Baldwin and Call Me by Your Name. There were just so much fewer options, so many fewer options.

Just to remind people, the thing you need to be a romance novel is a happy ending. A lot of the more-- at this point, we'll call them historical. I would just say queer fiction, just because of the time they're writing in a lot of times does not have a happy ending. I think that is something that really sets apart queer romance because things are still quite rough for LGBTQ folks these days. To me, to be guaranteed that happy ending is something I find really comforting.

Tiffany Hanssen: Leah, let's bring Mary Lynn from Westfield, New Jersey into the conversation. Hi, Mary Lynn.

Mary Lynn: Hi. How are you?

Tiffany Hanssen: Doing all right. You have a recommendation or--

Mary Lynn: I think that I could start with a recommendation and add a little bit to that last thought about the happily ever after, or the other alternative that we use in romance today, happy for now. One of the things you explore is that it doesn't necessarily mean a permanent commitment or a wedding. One of the things I really love is looking at historical queer romance. This is an area that's really lovely to have because we often think of this as the negative time, as when things were so bad, when things were hidden. What romance writers are doing today is taking that and turning it on its head in showing that there can be joy in these times.

One author I would recommend in this case would be KJ Charles, a wonderful book, the Band Sinister. This has a throuple. It has male-male-female combination that's great, showing that you can start to build these relationships even in an era where it would look like the relationship was just a heterosexual one. Another example would be Cat Sebastian, who's written queer romance. She's written trans romance. She's written almost everything there.

Another great example is Olivia Waite, who's written female-female romance, such as The Care and Feeding of Waspish Widows. That's one that I think is really nice to see because, of course, the idea of lavender marriage is something that we see all the time. One that's going to be coming out really soon this fall is by Alexandra Vasti, who's written Ladies in Hating. It's a story about two women who can't stand one another and they're constantly pecking at one another. Then of course, they end up falling for one another.

This, I think, is one of the nicest things to look at because it's not just two women, but they also have their own definitions of what they are in terms of how they feel about their sexuality. It's not just I'm in a sapphic romance, but it's how I feel myself in terms of being queer, trans, asexual, this sort of thing. There are all these things being explored in romance. It's being explored in contemporary, but it's also being explored in historical.

Tiffany Hanssen: Mary Lynn, thank you so much for that call. Leah, first of all, I think Mary Lynn needs to come work at your store because she has some--

Leah Koch: She knows what she's talking about.

Tiffany Hanssen: She knows what she's talking about. I was looking at your list here, Leah, just touching on that historical. I see on your list here A Lady for a Duke by Alexis Hall. Tell us about that book.

Leah Koch: It's one of my favorites. Mary Lynn was just talking about some great historical romance. This is a historical, takes place during the same time period as something like Bridgerton, and the heroine is a trans woman. She knew the hero when they were young and made the choice during that time period, there was a war, and basically, essentially faked her own death and came back as a woman blending quite well into society.

I know that sounds like maybe there's a lot of heaviness or pain involved in that. Of course, that's there, but it really is such a fun romp, is always a good word for a Regency romance. Alexis writes all kinds of books, contemporary as well.

Tiffany Hanssen: Got it. That is A Lady for a Duke by Alexis Hall. Leah, we have a couple of other texts here that came in with some other great recommendations. "They Both Die at the End. It's a YA queer romance and it introduced me to the genre," says one text. Another says, "Bloom by Kevin Panetta. Graphic novel, monochromatic color scheme, sweet plot, and baking," with several exclamation points. I love that.

Leah Koch: They Both Die at the End is by Adam Silvera.

Tiffany Hanssen: There we go. Thank you. One person recommends The Darkness Outside Us. It's categorized as young adult fiction, but it's a great read for people of all ages. That just gets to the point of one of the questions I was going to ask you too, Leah, is that how defined is, and I'm putting air quotes here, romance? Because it could be a YA novel, it could be historical fiction, it could fall under a whole host of other categories and still be romance.

Leah Koch: Absolutely. There are two things that you need to be considered a romance novel, and they are essential love story and a happy ending. Mary Lynn mentioned happy for now, which is also true. Basically, that just means that at the end of the book, you don't need to be heterosexually married with a baby. That's what it meant in the '70s. These days, it can mean a lot of different things. As long as you have those two things, you can totally explore within genre, age range, written prose, graphic novels. It really is such a wide range.

Tiffany Hanssen: How would you describe, and I know this is kind of a catch-22 question, but the typical person who comes into your store? I know that everybody is going to have a different background, a different story, but what I'm trying to get at here is, are most of the people that come into The Ripped Bodice, are these people who are like, "I am a romance reader and I am going to go find me some romance books," or are these people who are like, "What's this all about"?

Leah Koch: I'd say it's probably about 70/30. We are obviously on the street in New York. You can just walk by and walk in and we certainly get lots of people doing that. I'd say it's about 70% people who would really consider themselves romance readers, but on all kinds of skills. Maybe they've read 5, maybe they've read 500. The range in age in particular is quite vast, from about 12 to 13 to 90s.

Tiffany Hanssen: At the store, how do you build community with those people? I think that romance readers seem to me to be a very self-selecting group that is very welcoming and also, as you said, extremely diverse.

Leah Koch: Absolutely. Not a monolith by any means, of course. These are people that love to read and people who come to the store. Reading is generally a fairly solitary activity for most people. I think our events, our book clubs, even just the act of coming to the store is a way that people can take this relatively solitary activity and make it into something with community, with connection, with other people, and talk about something that they really love.

Tiffany Hanssen: Have you seen those things going around online where you basically get together with a group of people and you all each bring your own book and you have dinner with each other, but you're all just reading your own book? That's what I think of.

Leah Koch: I have, yes. There's also a trend of silent book clubs. We've thought about doing one of those over the years.

Tiffany Hanssen: Oh, like a silent rave, but you're all just kind of-- instead of listening to your own [crosstalk]

Leah Koch: Exactly, because everyone hangs out and reads.

Tiffany Hanssen: All right. Well, this Pride Month, we are now talking about LGBTQ romance books. Specifically, we're talking with the co-owner of The Ripped Bodice in Brooklyn, Leah Koch. We're talking about LGBTQ romance books and we're looking for your recommendations. 212-433-9692. I'm wondering, Leah, you've been at this now a while. You mentioned, what, 2016 the store opened?

Leah Koch: Correct.

Tiffany Hanssen: You went through the pandemic, which was a thing for independent booksellers that a lot of them did not fare so well coming out of. How'd you survive during the pandemic?

Leah Koch: Oh, gosh. It's a good question. Honestly, I don't even know if I've totally processed it yet. It was just such a wild time. I really attribute our survival to our community. We were really lucky. We'd been open four years at that point, so we had that community already built, not to the extent of that we have now. Those people were really genuinely invested in our survival and they encouraged us, they bought from us, they told their friends about us. We would not have survived without genuine effort from, in most cases, total strangers.

Tiffany Hanssen: All right, I think I'm going to be run out of town here if I don't get to some on this list here since I've been promoting this as a list of recommendations. I see number one on your list here is Here We Go Again, Alison, is it Cochrun?

Leah Koch: Yes.

Tiffany Hanssen: Briefly, tell us about that book.

Leah Koch: Brace yourself. Sapphic road trip comedy about death.

Tiffany Hanssen: [laughs]

Leah Koch: I swear it's funny.

Tiffany Hanssen: Your description was good, so I'm in. We're just going to plow through a couple of these so that we get-- That book was Here We Go Again by Alison Cochrun. You Should See Me in a Crown by Leah Johnson. Is this a teen?

Leah Koch: Yes. YA. I think if it was the musical, the prom without the singing and dancing and more emotional resonance.

Tiffany Hanssen: Okay. All right. Not YA, like only for young people?

Leah Koch: No, no, no. I'm an adult. The characters are in high school. Certainly, if you have teens in your life, I think they would enjoy it. Lots of adults love to read.

Tiffany Hanssen: And have been teens.

Leah Koch: [laughs] Absolutely.

Tiffany Hanssen: Something Wild and Wonderful by Anita Kelly.

Leah Koch: Two men meet hiking the Pacific Crest Trail.

Tiffany Hanssen: Oh my gosh. I see here this book is described as having the "grumpy sunshine trope." What in the heck? What is that?

Leah Koch: [laughs] Yes. Everyone is familiar with this whether you know it or not, but it's basically in a partnership, one person is sort of brimming over with joy, excitement, positivity, and the other one is grumpy.

Tiffany Hanssen: Not. The other one is not.

Leah Koch: Yes.

Tiffany Hanssen: It's like Odd Couple kind of territory.

Leah Koch: Yes, opposites attract. That kind of thing.

Tiffany Hanssen: Okay. Do all of these that we've mentioned so far have that either happy ending and/or happy for now?

Leah Koch: Yes.

Tiffany Hanssen: That really is a thing. In order to fall into the romance category, it kind of has to live there.

Leah Koch: Yes. I sell romance novels. Everything I'm going to recommend meets that criteria. Sometimes people try to get around it, which, to each their own, but it doesn't really work. My best example, I always say, is Anna Karenina is not a romance novel. She dies.

Tiffany Hanssen: Right. Spoiler.

Leah Koch: Yes, for a very recently published book.

Tiffany Hanssen: I wonder, do you find a lot of folks who use this as kind of an escape to feel better?

Leah Koch: Absolutely. Every single day. As bad as it is to say the worst things are in the real world, the better our sales are. That's not necessarily a positive or negative thing. From my perspective, if these books can make people forget their troubles for a little while, that has tremendous value to me.

Tiffany Hanssen: Let's talk with Emily in Westchester. Hi, Emily.

Emily: Hello.

Tiffany Hanssen: You have a recommendation?

Emily: Yes, I absolutely do. First of all, I love The Ripped Bodice. I go there all the time.

Leah Koch: Hey, Emily.

Emily: My recommendation is A Strange and Stubborn Endurance by Foz Meadows, F-O-Z. It's one of my favorite queer romances. It is quite long. It's over 500 pages. I really think that it is an excellent example of, let's see, how a diplomatic marriage does not necessarily need to be a sad one. It is really great. It is really good at showing queer joy because one of the main characters who marries into another family from another country, he comes from a homophobic place and he goes to a place that is more opening. His just absolute disbelief at the differences and how he can be free to be himself, it just coupled with this blossoming romance between him and his new spouse, I think is such a joy to read.

Tiffany Hanssen: Thank you, Emily, for the recommendation. Leah, this is A Strange and Stubborn Endurance, and I've already forgotten the name of the author.

Leah Koch: Foz, F-O-Z, Meadows.

Tiffany Hanssen: Foz Meadows. Okay, one last here for your list of recommendations. I don't think I've mentioned this one yet and I want to end on this. This is in New York. This is 1950s New York. It's called Last Night at the Telegraph Club. Great title, by the way, by Malinda Lo. Just tell us about that.

Leah Koch: It is such a beautiful book. The characters are young. It is sort of marketed as YA, but I really think everyone would love it. It's sort of what Mary Lynn was talking about a little bit a few minutes ago, where historical periods that from where we sit now, we believe everyone must have been miserable all the time. It is really pushing back against that notion and saying no, queer people have always existed and they've always found ways to experience queer joy. It's a really beautiful novel. I really recommend it.

Tiffany Hanssen: We are in Pride Month. Just tell us really quickly what you have planned at The Ripped Bodice for the rest of Pride Month. Any events coming up or anything you want to mention?

Leah Koch: Yes. I've been joking with my staff that June is the new December. December is traditionally our busiest month, but June is getting up there. You can always go to our website. We have all kinds of events, author events. Book clubs are always free. You can just show up. You don't need to be a member. We have a dedicated queer book club that meets once a month, and anyone is welcome to come and check that out. Brooklyn Pride was this past weekend. It did rain, which was kind of a bummer, but we still had a great time.

Tiffany Hanssen: No raining on that parade.

Leah Koch: [chuckles] It's really a very joyful time at the store. Please make sure you talk to our booksellers when you're there because they are just so knowledgeable and they can really help you find anything.

Tiffany Hanssen: Sounds great. All right. The bookstore we're talking about is The Ripped Bodice. We're talking about the Park Slope location. The co-owner of that store is Leah Koch. Leah has been giving us her recommendations for LGBTQ romance books. We appreciate all of your time today and all of the great recommendations, Leah.

Leah Koch: Thank you so much for having me.

Tiffany Hanssen: We continue our discussion of books. Coming up is the discussion of a latest of the latest thriller by S.A. Cosby. It's called King of Ashes. It follows one man's attempt to extricate his family from the clutches of a local gang. We're going to talk with the author coming up, so don't go anywhere. I'm Tiffany Hanssen in for Alison Stewart.