Title: Kamala Goes Viral

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Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. On July 21, President Joe Biden dropped out of the 2024 race for the White House and endorsed Vice President Kamala Harris, and the Internet has been filled with memes ever since. For example, TikTok users have posted thousands of videos featuring Kamala Harris's "coconut tree" quote from her 2023 speech.

Pop star Charli XCX, whose new album is called Brat, declared Kamala is brat, and the chartreuse album cover can be seen as a signal of support on Instagram, a web designer created an image of the candidate holding a vinyl copy of whatever your favorite albums. There are fan cams of Harris dancing and laughing. Is it good fun or serious fun? And will that 15 minutes of fame expire? Today we'll be diving into the Internet frenzy and memeification of presumptive democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris. The Atlantic staff writer Shirley Li recently published an article titled "The Brat-ification of Kamala Harris," and she joins us to discuss. Hi, Shirley.

Shirley Li: Hi, Alison. Thanks for having me.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, let's get you in on this conversation. Are you following the election? What has been your primary source for keeping up with everything going on? Is it newspapers, television, radio, or social media? How do you feel about the Internet and the memes culture influence on our presidential election? Do you think Vice President Kamala Harris is a brat? Have you seen anything interesting or funny memes of the vice president and one of the other candidates?

You can give us a call, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You may call in or you may text to us at that number, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, or you can reach out on social media @AllOfItWNYC. Let's roll back to pre-July 21. What has been Vice President Harris's social media presence been like online in the past few years, and what has been the Internet version of her before she was a candidate?

Shirley Li: Well, here's the thing. She is inherently memeable. I think that kind of [laughs], there's something about the office of the vice president that makes it easy to make fun of. It's why the HBO show Veep worked, to observe what's essentially an inessential political office to a lot of people [laughs], but Kamala Harris herself, I think, has a tendency to deliver word salads in her speeches and then to laugh it off in this really memeable way. I mean, if you're chronically online, you've probably encountered videos of her. Like you mentioned, Alison, delivering that speech about-

Alison Stewart: Coconut tree. We're going to get there.

Shirley Li: -falling out of a coconut tree. Yes, yes, yes.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Shirley Li: She pivots so quickly from laughing about quoting her mother talking about falling out of a coconut tree to saying something really serious about existing in the context of all that came before you, and all of this is just to say that, look, what tickles the Internet usually requires this inexplicable X factor, so it's kind of hard to explain Kamala Harris's presence on the Internet, but she operated like any other politician, really.

She has her team. She has social media that's professionally designed, but she also has a little bit of just this grassrootsy presence made by people who are a part of the #KHive, fans of Kamala who just take her gaffes and run with it and create memes because they're kind of absurd. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: What has changed since Joe Biden dropped out of the race? How has her Internet presence changed now that she is the presumptive candidate?

Shirley Li: Well, I want to be clear here. She herself has not really posted anything. She has not commented on brat directly. She hasn't really been interviewed about it, though I'm sure there's going to be a question lobbed her way at something at some point, but what's changed is really her campaign has leaned into the memes. If you look at the social media profiles for Kamala HQ, you'll see that they've also adopted the chartreuse/lime green/bile green, if you want to be nasty about it, color of the album cover for Charli XCX's Brat.

They've also leaned into not just the color, but the font and really encouraged the discussion of Kamala being brat. I think that's risky, first of all, because it is, again, it's for the really chronically online, and it sounds like gibberish to anybody who doesn't even know who Charli XCX is, but it's kind of this messy, easygoing behavior that makes it cool and not forced. It's not Pokemon Go to the Polls. You know what I mean? It's not incorporating brat speak into her talking points, at least not yet. The trick here is not to overdo it.

Alison Stewart: Just to make sure people understand, British singer-songwriter Charli XCX posted on X that vice president is brat. Now, break down brat for us. You told us a little bit about it, but explain brat for us.

Shirley Li: [laughs] Oh boy. Alison, I've said this before, and I'll say it again, it is so not brat to explain brat.

Alison Stewart: Exactly.

[laughter]

Shirley Li: Essentially, "brat summer" is a trend inspired by the British pop singer Charli XCX's latest album, which is called Brat. All of this technically started back in February when she began rolling out snippets from her singles and doing these pop-up DJ sets and drenching, everything she touched in that-- Again, lime green/chartreuse color, it created this aesthetic.

Essentially, it's an album that inspired an attitude that inspired an online trend, and so when we say something is brat, we're talking about the attitude, not necessarily the music, the album itself, but the attitude is kind of what Charli XCX presents on the album, which is this idea of being, let's see, like intentionally confrontational and provocative, but also messy and being able to party through your woes. [laughs] It's being vulnerable but also being a party girl.

My suspicion is that Charli XCX sees in Kamala or her presidential campaign, she sees in all of that someone who faces the same kinds of pressures that any female public figure does, but in a really concentrated way. It's not that Kamala herself is brat. I don't think she's a 365 party girl, which is a lyric from Brat, but the campaign's incorporation of the brat aesthetic is, and Alison, honestly, it's even more brat that we've been discussing this and Charli has not elaborated any further on what she meant.

Alison Stewart: Well, brat is also kind of a vibe.

Shirley Li: Yes, brat is totally a vibe. I mean, the brat sound is fit for a club. I mean, the beats are club beats. They're meant to get you dancing. They're meant to get you on the floor, maybe doing hard drugs [laughs], but their lyrics, if you listen to the album all the way through, their lyrics are really about Charli's insecurities. There's a song about whether she is fulfilled as a woman despite not having children. There are lyrics about whether she's perceived as to be as successful as other artists and whether she even perceives herself as successful when she's jealous of other women's success.

When you look at that, you can trace how perhaps-- Again, not that Charli has elaborated on this, but you can maybe see how Kamala is a provocative choice and she's similarly scrutinized. Right? Just look at J. D. Vance's comments about Kamala being less fit for political office because she's "childless," and that's a judgment male candidates don't get tossed their way. For the record, Kamala's stepchildren have pushed back against that characterization, but it goes to what brat the album is about, and I think brat the attitude comes with it.

Alison Stewart: We got a text. "My favorite is an image of Kamala Harris's face replacing Timothee Chalamet as the messiah of the Dune movie, ready for a fight." Let's talk to Karen on line 1. Hi, Karen. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Karen: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. First I just wanted to say that I was getting my news only from Jimmy Kimmel because he was like the only person I could take before Kamala announced. I just couldn't even watch regular news. Then I also-- I was in such a distraught, catastrophic way that I booked a weekend cheap retreat that I've gone to in the past, but I love it, and some Buddhist people were speaking, because I desperately needed something to make me have some hope and less fear about the future.

As soon as she announced, like all of that would disappear, like I have no real need now to even go. I'm going to go [chuckles], but I'm so much calmer. I'm so much hopeful. I feel like the ship has been righted a little bit, and I do have a lot of faith that we will see the right thing happen this election.

Alison Stewart: Karen, thank you for calling in. I'm going to follow up on Karen. The New York Times said that online creators have been waiting for this moment. They quoted them as saying there's genuine excitement among Ms. Harris's liberal creators. He said, "Whereas with Biden, we were trying to manufacture excitement from vapor." What does she have that Biden does not?

Shirley Li: Well, [laughs] I'll just point to the age thing first of all. Right?

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Shirley Li: I want people to remember that there was a time when Joe Biden was also memeable, and I think that was because he was younger than he is now. Time marches on. He was also vice president, and it seemed like he was in on the joke. It was kind of fun. Then, over time, it just felt like if you were memeing him, you were kind of punching down.

Alison Stewart: Right.

Shirley Li: Kamala is different because not only is she younger, not only did she hold an office that is already inherently memeable, like I said before, I also think that her personality makes her more exciting, more joyful. I'm trying to land on the right word. It's not necessarily cool, it's a little dorky, but I think if you've seen the clip of her greeting the Bennets.

I don't know if you've seen this. There's a clip in which she's greeting politicians, and Senator Bennet and his family walks up and he greets her in this really low voice, and she responds in kind where she goes, "Hello, Senator Bennet," and it's playful and teasing, and it kind of comes out of nowhere, and I think she exudes some of that playfulness in the work, and I think that catches people off guard in a way that's exciting, and that really makes people on the Internet want to jump on board and create and mash her together with whatever else is trending. It's hard to explain.

Alison Stewart: I always call it [unintelligible 00:12:21] vibe. It's the whole thing.

Shirley Li: That too. That too.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Shirley Li. We're discussing the memeification of presidential candidate Kamala Harris. We are taking your calls. We want to know where you are getting your media from. Are you getting it from social media, radio, TV news, newspapers? How do you feel about the Internet meme culture's influence on the presidential election? Our phone number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call or you can text to us at that number. After the break, we'll get to the coconut tree.

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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. We're discussing the memeification of presidential candidate Kamala Harris with The Atlantic staff writer Shirley Li, who recently published the article "The Brat-ification of Kamala Harris." Okay, we've gotten to the coconut tree. This meme originates from a May 2023 speech Harris gave at the White House at an event for advancing opportunities for Hispanic Americans. Let's listen to it in context.

Kamala Harris: But it's also about what is the culture of the environment? How are we approaching this issue in a way that we also understand we cannot support and help our young people if we don't also look at the context in which those young people live and are being raised? Which means necessarily, because our edict and our mission is not to come out and say, "Well, we could do this better."

Part of the extension of the work you will do is, yes, focused on our young leaders and our young people, but understanding we also then have to be clear about the needs of their parents and their grandparents and their teachers and their communities, because none of us just live in a silo. Everything is in context. My mother used to-- she would give us a hard time sometimes, and she would say to us, "I don't know what's wrong with you young people. You think you just fell out of a coconut tree?" [laughs] You exist in the context of all in which you live and what came before you.

Alison Stewart: Okay. Initially, how was the speech received when it was first given?

Shirley Li: I think when it was first given, people were kind of just like, "Okay, this is--" It's just another speech with a bit of a word salad in the middle. It took some time to become a meme because I think eventually when it was available to be watched, I can't remember who exactly picked it up, but someone took that clip and began iterating on it. Not to explain how a meme forms, but I think ordinary users out on the Internet just started iterating on the quote a little bit more and zooming in-- Not zooming in, but honing in on that exact bit where she goes from quoting her mother to trying to talk about a really-- trying to deliver in a serious tone what she means by saying, "You think you just fell out of a coconut tree?"

I think people were just tickled by it, and then it really grew from there. It took a couple months, but I mean, it's just remarkably inelegant. You know what I mean? It's like, it's inelegant, but then there's something funny and kind of relatable about it. You know, haven't we all tried to make a profound point while delivering an inelegant analogy? I feel like I'm almost getting there myself. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. This is Kayleigh calling in from Connecticut. Hi, Kayleigh. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Kayleigh: Hi. I am, honestly, a little nervous to be speaking, but really, my question/comment is just, I'm young, I'm a 24 year old, I feel like I'm pretty with it. I do have background in political economy. I guess my comment or question is like, why are we not talking about this potential leader, honestly, in a better light or like even a more articulate way?

I feel like this kind of terminology, and obviously with memeification, you kind of have to get it, you kind of have to be in on the club, but this just seems like something that a lot of people might miss the mark on in terms of understanding. I mean, even just listening to this bit, I really can't pinpoint, I guess, more like beyond what does this mean, but how can we do better in describing this potential leader so more people can understand her, maybe values or positions, things like this? Because, brat, honestly, what is that even showing to us?

Alison Stewart: Kayleigh, thank you for your comment. That's a big issue. Are Internet users laughing at Vice President Harris? Are they laughing with Vice President Harris? Can you tell the difference?

Shirley Li: That's a really great question. All of those questions just presented as, during that call, I was nodding my head the whole time because that is the issue. I'll say this. I think as far as defining her agenda, her platform, what she cares about, what she'll be like as a leader, that needs to come from Kamala herself. This Internet phenomenon is a way to keep her in the conversation online in a really niche way that still has a ripple effect.

I mean, that kind of goes to what I was saying earlier about how it's a risky move to target this really niche pop cultural thing and expand on it in a way that will just sound like total gibberish to a lot of people, but I also don't want to say that pop culture is unimportant or that memes are unimportant to a campaign. They will not win a presidential campaign for anybody, but pop culture is a good way to keep someone present. Here is the thing. When we talk about whether we should take any element of this seriously, I don't think we should discard any of it.

I think this is all a part of the package that we'll receive. The most important part of the package, obviously, as far as what she'll want to do as a leader, about what she cares about, that has to come from Kamala Harris herself, but pop culture, memes, personality, and just this grassroots vibe, that all has to be a part of this campaign. I do think-- Let me put it this way. I think memes keep someone in the conversation, and what's working for Kamala Harris so far is that right out of the gate, she can seem like she's in on the joke without being aggressive about it or even that political.

These memes are just fun, and memeing through it is kind of like partying through, and that's brat, but in the months to come, she'll have to be the one to define who she is as a leader. Again, I think I said this at the top, once you overdo a meme, the meme is dead. We're getting close to that, so I think this phase of talking about whether she's brat, iterating on the coconut tree video, all of that has been fun, but, yes, it can't be the only thing, and I don't think it will be the only thing.

Alison Stewart: Governor Tim Walz from Minnesota, who's on the shortlist for vice president, said, "You should ignore the TikTok generation at your own peril. Do not ignore this." Why do you think Harris has leaned into it?

Shirley Li: Oh. I think it goes to what I was saying before, because there is a tremendous ripple effect from what comes up on TikTok. Here's the thing. You ignore the younger generations at your peril. Absolutely. Because they're the ones who often create, generate organically what ends up being talked about. Their fandom may seem, again, gibberish to older generations, but it means that they're paying attention to something about a candidate, and I think-- I'm trying to think of the right way to put this.

I'll say this, online, after my piece was published and I posted it onto X, I got a lot of reactions that were like, "Why should I care about this? I don't even know what this means." Those often came with a GIF from shows like The Office. The language of pop culture, it's there. Do you see the irony in it?

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Shirley Li: Yes. The language of pop culture is important, and the younger generations tend to define what in pop culture is being paid attention to, and when you figure out how that relates to a candidate, I think you can really not just gain potential voters, you can kind of gain an understanding of what they're looking for. So far, the campaign jumping on brat seems to be Kamala Harris's campaign understanding that people kind of like her playful side, so for now, they can play that up a bit.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Michael from Brooklyn. Hi, Michael. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Michael: Hi there. I think it's important for us to all realize that the other side will define Kamala Harris if we don't define her ourselves in terms of what is put out there. I think that, to your caller earlier who talked about like let's talk about the seriousness of things, I think it's more important that it is all-sided. I think that, for the most part, the quote that we're talking about here is lost because you're focusing on the coconut tree and not focusing on the message, and I think when a candidate brings something to the table that is from a family member, from a family member who's no longer with us, it actually makes them more personal.

It makes them more appealing-- There is more appeal there, and we don't get that from the other side. I'm all for making her likable. I know that in my perspective, she is likable, and I'm excited for what she brings to the table.

Alison Stewart: Michael, thank you so much for calling. We do appreciate it. I'm going to ask you about J. D. Vance on the other side. He is the youngest person in the race at 39. Have we seen any movement on his side in terms of the memeification of J. D. Vance?

Shirley Li: Oh boy. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: He's right in the target. I mean, come on.

Shirley Li: [laughs] Right. There have definitely been memes. There has been a memeification of J. D. Vance, but definitely not in the same way. There have been maybe-- How do I characterize this? Unfortunate memes dredging up rumors about him.

Alison Stewart: Oh. Oh my. Okay. Yes.

Shirley Li: Alison, I don't know what you've seen.

Alison Stewart: Yes, we've all seen it. Okay.

Shirley Li: Okay, great. Regarding furniture, but there have also been, in a similar vein, which goes to what your caller is saying. There have also been videos I've seen that have circulated of him being just a little bit awkward about saying that he drinks Diet Mountain Dew or other things that he's done on the campaign trail already that I think people online find humorous. Now, what's fascinating is that I think when you look at those memes compared to the Kamala Harris memes, those memes are more Vance-centric.

I feel like the Kamala Harris ones have really been iterated on by being mashed together with things like brat. Again, it's so hard to explain the X factor of what makes a meme funny instead of insulting, but I think you can kind of observe the difference there.

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Shirley Li: When it comes to J. D. Vance, it seems like people are laughing at him. When it comes to Kamala Harris, it kind of seems like people are laughing with her. Here's the thing, that that's not 100% for everybody online, but there is a fine line there.

Alison Stewart: Shirley Li from The Atlantic about the memeification of Vice President Kamala Harris. Thanks so much.

Shirley Li: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Let's go out on Charli XCX. Why not?

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