Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. If you love the show The Queen's Gambit or Chess on Broadway, you will be riveted by the new documentary Queen of Chess, about the real woman at the top of the chess world. Judit Polgár beat Bobby Fischer's record to become the youngest ever grandmaster when she was 15 years old. She remains the only woman to ever be ranked in the top 10 chess players in the world. She is considered to be one of the best chess players of all time. Judit's early success was thanks in part to the determination of her father. Along with her two older sisters, Judit's childhood in Hungary was consumed with daily, intensive chess training.

Judit's father was determined to mold his three daughters into prodigies. Despite her success, Judit could not seem to beat one player, the Russian grandmaster Garry Kasparov. Their first meeting ended in an international controversy, and Judit spent years trying to beat the man many consider to be the best chess player in the world. Judit's life and career are chronicled in the documentary Queen of Chess, which was directed by Rory Kennedy. The film is premiering at the Sundance Film Festival next week, and it'll be streaming on Netflix on February 6th. Joining me now is Judit Polgár. It is so nice to meet you.

Judit Polgár: Nice to meet you. Hi.

Alison Stewart: When did you decide that you wanted to sign on to the documentary, and what questions did you have?

Judit Polgár: It was about two years ago that Rory reached out to me. While I had many inquiries for documentaries after The Queen's Gambit, there were a lot of themes coming up, and then my decision was, let's go with Rory on the documentary. The reason was because I was happy that a woman, a female filmmaker, is going to be working on my story. Also, I can say not everybody is sharing my view that it's a benefit, but for me, it was a pro. It was a plus that she does not play chess.

For me, it was a huge challenge. I was so curious, how is she going to be as she's so interested about my story, that she wanted to show it to a wider audience that how to show something that she has nothing to do with the sport. She didn't hear about my story myself, but the sport was not close to her heart at all. It is very interesting for me how someone like that, that personality, can show the insides, the drama, the tension, all these interesting things in this sport.

Alison Stewart: That's why it was so interesting, because you had to explain it to her, and she had-- You explained it to the audience as well.

Judit Polgár: Absolutely. It was very funny. When we were making the film itself, and Rory was asking so many questions, very basic questions.

Alison Stewart: What does pawn do? [laughs]

Judit Polgár: Well, what is a checkmate? [laughs] All these things. It's funny. I understood that she has to understand all these things in order to be able to present it to the big public who are not chess players, but they might be interested. It's curious how this sport is about. Why is it interesting? Is there any tension? How can we show it the way that we express what it is?

Alison Stewart: Explain to me why chess is interesting.

Judit Polgár: Chess for me, it was extremely interesting from the beginning. It was a game that it was interesting. There are six different characters of the game, and you have to make it a teamwork. Of course, in the beginning, it was a game. Later on, it became a sport very fast, as I won my first international event when I was nine, here exactly in New York. Later on, I had to be focusing more. I was scientist as well, because you have to make a lot of analytical work in order to be improving your play a lot. Later on, it became also I understood that the chess is very much an educational tool as well, which I'm very much involved these days.

Chess is a game where you find everything. You find the life, the connections, the rules. You have to respect the rules. You have to know thousands and thousands of patterns to be able to manage yourself, play a good game, and be successful. I play life also as a chess player [laughs] in some ways.

Alison Stewart: I understand that. What was it like for you to see all of that footage of you as a little girl?

Judit Polgár: To relive those moments and those times, it was very special, especially when I saw the movie for the first time. Of course, when I was a kid, I never dreamed of the fact that it's going to be a documentary about me and my family. Now looking back, it's very special to see yourself as a child and developing as a teenager and later on a woman. Also seeing yourself talking, giving interviews, [laughs] and of course, all the memories come back as well.

Alison Stewart: My guest is chess grandmaster Judit Polgár. We are talking about the new documentary about her life and career as a chess prodigy and player, and the most accomplished female chess player in the world. I'm going to say you're an accomplished chess player, not female. Queen of Chess premieres next week at the Sundance Film Festival and will stream on Netflix on February 6th. This all started with your dad, actually. Did he explain to you why he wanted you at such a young age to be devoted to chess?

Judit Polgár: Actually, he had this idea that he wanted his children to be homeschooled, focusing on one specific area. I think it became because the way-- He didn't have an easy childhood, and he said he wants to show it if he couldn't make it be genius in something, he wants to show it with his own children. I was number three in the line. I have two older sisters. Susan was already playing chess from age four. He said that he believes that you can have a successful and happy person if you're focusing on one specific area, and you gain self-confidence you have, and you build your character and personality that way.

He really believed in that from the very beginning. He said it to my mom before they had the children, that this is his dream. My mother was very skeptical, "Is this guy okay? What kind of strange things he has in mind?" Then later on, when Susan was there, she was supportive, and she was very much partner in that. Well, I could become the person and the player who I am because of both of my parents, because they gave very different skills and mindset.

Alison Stewart: What did your mom [crosstalk]

Judit Polgár: Well, she's also a teacher, actually, both of them are teachers by profession. Well, my mother was definitely the person who was behind the person who gives the warm of a family. She was doing everything being in household, she was traveling, she was making visas, she was arranging everything around the trainers. As we were homeschooled, we were always home and playing chess daily, many hours. She had to do lots of, lots of things. She made all this background work.

Alison Stewart: Did you ever not want to be homeschooled? Did you ever want to go to a normal school when you were a kid?

Judit Polgár: No. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: You liked the layout. You liked the way your parents presented it.

Judit Polgár: Well, in those times in the early '80s, I started to travel when I was seven or eight. In those times, it was very special, especially being in Hungary, living in a socialist country. In those times, it was miracle, "Wow, I can travel." I was nine when I was traveling to New York for the first time. Even though I was playing all day, because I played two games and had no time really for anything special. When you're walking, you have the feeling of the atmosphere of something really special. This is incredible to see and visit so many different cultures when we were traveling and going for events. This was too special.

Alison Stewart: What was your homeschooling like, and how many hours did you spend playing chess?

Judit Polgár: Well, basically, I was giving exams annually. In the very beginning, it was like five minutes when I started to get familiar with the moves. Later on, by the time I was seven, I was playing maybe four, five hours, six hours a day. When I was nine, I was already seven, eight hours. Most of the day filled up with training sessions with one or different coaches. I was also training with my sisters later on, when I was already good enough to be a good match to them.

Alison Stewart: Sometimes when you point a child towards something, and you say, "You do it," they say, "No." [laughs] They rebel against it. No matter how good they are, they could be great at it, but they tend to rebel against it. Why do you think you didn't, why didn't you have a rebellion against playing chess?

Judit Polgár: I was just very successful from a very young age. You get addicted when you're successful. You win a game, and then you win another game, and then you win another game, and people appreciate it. Not the opponents, of course, but the fans. Also, I was very much supported, not only by my parents, but my sisters. We were so much together. We were so happy for each other's results. When you're winning, and you get this incredible feeling, you don't even think about it. Why should I rebel? Why should I have a different life? It fits to me very well.

Alison Stewart: The media sometimes referred to what your dad did as an experiment with you. It's presented to you in the documentary. You bristle, but you have a look on your face like, "Oh, this again." Why did it make you uncomfortable to hear it referred to as an experiment?

Judit Polgár: Well, basically, when I was a kid, this is the only thing I heard about that, "You're strange. You're not normal. You're not a regular kid. Your parents are making an experiment with you," while at the same time, I was sitting at home playing chess and I felt comfortable in that seat. The outside world wanted to put a lot of pressure on me. I remember very well, I was about age 12 or 13 when we had visiting every month to Germany. We had a meetup every month, and each time we had a press conference. There also the press was pressing me that, "Why don't you go to school?" How you do it, your parents are strange," et cetera.

Actually, I was really pushed very badly. At some point, I cracked, and I was crying, and I said, "Okay, why do they attack me that way?" Then I became strong, and I said, "Okay, now I'm going to deal with that, that I don't pay attention." Sometimes it was difficult that the outside world was putting so much pressure on you and your parents that-- This could be handled because we were so close to each other, and we sisters, we were traveling together, chatting all the time together. Everything which we didn't agree on, we were supporting each other. That was something extremely strong and this way I was defended.

Alison Stewart: How much do you think being good at chess is about natural talent?

Judit Polgár: Well, this is the big debate of my father also, that he believes that the geniuses are not born but made, that there is no talent such as just that. The big question is, what is talent? I think you might say there is talent, but without work, without hard work and support, it can be even against you. For me, my talent was that I'm ready to work hard. I was ready and without pain. Working and playing chess all day and recover and have the resilience and having the fighting spirit, and having that character traits, what the competitor needs.

Alison Stewart: I'm speaking with Grandmaster Judit Polgár. We're talking about a new documentary called the Queen of Chess. It premieres next week at the Sundance Film Festival. How would you describe your style of chess?

Judit Polgár: Well, I was scary for my opponents. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: You were scary?

[laughter]

Judit Polgár: Yes, because when I was little, I didn't speak English, and I was very much at home. I had this special look, which some players described it as a killer look. My style was very much straightforward. It's like there are some people who say whatever they think immediately. This is exactly the style I had in chess, that I'm not hiding away what my intentions are. I want to win. I'm ready to sacrifice half of the board in order to give checkmate, because that's what we are playing the game for. It was very clear from childhood that I'm playing spectacular chess, always sacrificing something. The only thing in my mind is to give checkmate to the opponent. I was very aggressive and attacker.

Alison Stewart: What do you think some of the key skills are needed to be good at chess or to be great at chess?

Judit Polgár: Well, you have to be a great-- You have to be a creative person. You have to be self-critical a lot. You have to be a great analyst. You have to be able to stand the monotony, to work hard on continuously. Resilience is something that essential, definitely. Well, logical thinking is not bad to have, obviously. More or less these are the basics of it. You have to love the game.

Alison Stewart: How about memory? Is memory important?

Judit Polgár: Memory is important quite a bit as well. Now the sport changed a lot in the last decade or two, since we have engines, the computer, the AI also got involved in the sport of chess. It pretty much transformed the game.

Alison Stewart: Oh, how so?

Judit Polgár: Well, basically, when I was a kid, I was playing sitting opposite with someone having the chessboard in between us. We were analyzing, writing down on a paper. People cannot even imagine that. Later on, when engines appeared, it means that they give suggestions, but not only move suggestions, let's say instead of Knight F3, Bishop B2 is a better move, but also it gives evaluation. By now, it is a lot of people get involved in the analysis that you trust the engine too much, and you don't understand exactly.

It's very funny for me and interesting to see how AI like ChatGPT or any AI tool, what kind of ideas it gives to the people. How people react because it is very similar the way we were reacting as chess players 20 years ago. That was really interesting for me. People trust the engine very much. Then you give the same advice. You use ChatGPT. You can use it if you're a critical thinker. You're just using it as an advisor, as a friend, but you're analyzing, you're trying to understand everything.

In that sense, it can help you a lot. It can shorten the time management for you, how much you're spending on whatever task, it's the same with chess, that if you try to understand it, you're managing it, then you can use it very well. Of course, in the beginning, it was a huge challenge, how to use the engine. It was lying to me that I had a winning position, and actually, I was losing.

Alison Stewart: I was going to say, you can outsmart it.

Judit Polgár: It's not so easy. I had a lot of struggles to understand the chess engines, but later on, of course, these days everybody's using engines, using their moves, the suggestions. They work on it to understand, and then go in the game and then play on their own way.

Alison Stewart: The name of the documentary is Queen of Chess. My guest is a star chess grandmaster, Judit Polgár. We'll have more after a quick break. This is All Of It.

[music]

Alison Stewart: We're back with All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest in studio is chess grandmaster Judit Polgár. We're talking about the new documentary about her life and her career as a chess prodigy and the most accomplished female chess player in the world. Queen of Chess will premiere on Netflix on February 6th. I remember the '80s and '90s. How would you describe the attitudes towards women in chess in the '80s and '90s?

Judit Polgár: That was rude.

Alison Stewart: Rude.

[laughter]

Judit Polgár: I think in the documentary, if you see it, you understand what I mean. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: It is rude. That's the perfect word.

Judit Polgár: Well, men did not really respect it, to say the least, women chess players, because even today they may say sometimes that, "Ah, that's women chess." Like saying it's bad chess, it's low-level chess. This was very much what was in the air in those times. Then I started to win some games, my first game, which I won against the grandmaster, I was 11 years old. Obviously, everyone thought it's a mistake, it's a misunderstanding. It was by chance, something happened to my opponent during that day. Even though it was a very fighting game, it was very interesting game with. Of course, some mistakes, but it was very clearly that I won a good game.

It was for a long time that with me also they thought, "Okay, again, she was lucky again." A few days later, "She was lucky again," and again. Then, eventually, it was changing with time. In the '80s, '90s, it was very much, very clear that actually, even chess is not a physical sport. They could say that it had the biggest difference between the world number one male and the world number one female. There was bigger difference in chess than, let's say, in tennis or in physical sports. It was not understandable at all. It's not a physical sport, it's a mental sport.

This is what was great from my parents, that they were so open about it and clear about it, that you're girls, but what's the problem? You have a brain, and they give all the support so you can be as good as all the guys. I grew up that way, and this is very important.

Alison Stewart: Did you ever feel bad when you were treated that way?

Judit Polgár: Not really, because I had the support system around me. We talked around and said, "Okay, what is this garbage? It doesn't make any sense. Of course, you're going to beat them." [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Yes. You knew you were good, right?

Judit Polgár: For my age, I was really good. People were not really able to follow the speed I was improving in chess.

Alison Stewart: The film is structured-- It's a film, so it's structured a little bit around your rivalry with Garry Kasparov, considered one of the best chess players ever. When you were a kid, what did Garry mean to you?

Judit Polgár: Well, Garry was a big idol for me when I was a kid. The reason is because he had that kind of playing style, which was very spectacular and very appealing to me. He's very much a personality of saying what he thinks. He's very much straightforward. He won many games in a beautiful, tactical, stylish, energetic style. I was following together with myself sister Sofia, who is a year and a half older only. We were having training sessions together. We were following him. He was just very young, Kasparov, and he became world champion. He was only 22 years old. He was the youngest world champion at the time. This was amazing.

I remember following his world championship matches, how it unfolded from week to week. Those times, it was really long matches. They were competing, fighting it out for a few months. It was something really special to follow how such a youngster with so much energy and playing style could win. Then I met him for the first time when I was 12 years old in the Thessaloniki Chess Olympiad, which is also covered in the documentary. That was the event where I won together with my sisters, the gold medal for Hungary. There I could see him in person. I got to know that he was watching my game. That gave so much inspiration. That was the first time when I met him.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting. I don't want to give away too much of the documentary, but you do get to know him. You went to, I think, to Croatia with him. Seeing him as a person, how did that change your view of him as a chess player, seeing him as a person, going to the beach, having a good time with him?

Judit Polgár: It was very interesting experience for me, because of course, the chess players may be having a good relationship and even friends and we meet each other lot of events. I was playing with Kasparov for so many years, competing year after year, even few times within the year. It happens with not so many people that they have the respect for you, not only as a chess player, or once they have respect as a chess player, they also invite your base, and they want to know you better, and maybe work together even.

This is what happened with Garry, that this was a very big thing for me when he invited. The reason is because this was biggest sign that he acknowledged my chess knowledge, that he was curious about my thinking as well. This was very special. Of course, when you work with someone several hours a day for a week or even longer time, you get to know the person better in very regular circumstances in everyday life. That is something great thing when you can meet a huge champion, big champion, especially if it's your idol.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting. I'm wondering if there's a mindset when you're playing chess and a mindset when you're not, because there was a controversy and you cover it in the film involving Garry. We won't say what happened, but did he cheat? Did he not cheat? Maybe. I don't know. Could you separate those two mindsets? The person who is your player, your opponent, versus this person who you will go to Croatia with.

Judit Polgár: Of course. When you go for the chessboard, then you want to kill your opponent and not in a sense that you want to hurt him, but you want it good for yourself. This is something very special, that it's a fight, it's a one-on-one fight. When you see boxing, you see that physically they want to punch you. Exactly the same happens in chess. You want to punch your opponent, you want to have a KO, you want to win this, the game. Even if before the game, you're friends, even after the game finishes, you start talking about the fact, "I should have played this, you should have played that." We're discussing after that. When we are playing, we obviously want to beat each other.

Alison Stewart: In the film, you are taught that you don't always have to win. It might be to your benefit when you draw. What kept you from deciding to be a person, "I'm going to take the draw rather than the win," up until that point?

Judit Polgár: Well, it basically was my style that I always gave all in. It happened that sometimes you have to make a decision whether-- It's slippery on the road outside. You make your decision. I go out, and I take my risk. I was always taking my risk. [laughs] At some point, you say, when you fell a lot, you decide, well, maybe I wait a little when it's melting, and then I sit at home. This is what I did in my chess also, that after some while, I realized that maybe it's not necessarily always to go to a sharper direction, fighting it out, to make a risky move, that maybe it wins, maybe it loses. Definitely, I don't know, I cannot control it completely.

Then I decided that you know what, maybe it's just better to be solid and to make a draw today. Let's keep my energy for tomorrow because a chess tournament can last 13, 14 days round. You do need your energy. You have to have your strategy not only in each game, but also it's better to have a strategy for a whole tournament, where you keep your energy where you want to play longer game, what kind of openings you are choosing, sharper or more solid. This became part of my strategy that I don't have to sharpen out everything all the time.

Alison Stewart: Judit, you became a grandmaster at 15 years, 4 months, and 28 days. Just a month younger than the previous record held by Bobby Fischer. What does it take to be considered a grandmaster in chess?

Judit Polgár: Basically, you have different titles, and this is the biggest title you can get before becoming a world champion.

Alison Stewart: It's the biggest thing. It was a big deal when you beat him.

Judit Polgár: It was a huge thing. Becoming a grandmaster it means that you have to make a performance several times. It's a rating 2500 that you have to reach, and you have to perform it in a certain number of games. It's 24 games, you have to show, you have to give the exam so called. You're showing that you have that level, and then you get the title. After that, you have to keep this level. You have to test yourself again and again. You can never lose the title, but once you win, you still have to stay there by rating points.

Alison Stewart: I have to ask, have you seen Chess on Broadway since you've been in New York?

Judit Polgár: Actually, I did yesterday. Last night.

Alison Stewart: You saw it last night?

Judit Polgár: [laughs] Yes, I did. It was amazing.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Give us your review. We've got about a minute left.

Judit Polgár: Well, it was amazing. It was very funny because I saw it first in London 1988, quite a some years ago. Yesterday I saw it, and it was a fantastic performance by everyone, actually. I've met also some of the performers. Nicholas, I met and Lea.

Alison Stewart: Lea based a little bit on you, maybe?

Judit Polgár: No, no, no. This is war and politics.

Alison Stewart: Sure.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Like chess isn't. [laughs] I want to get this one more question in. What do you think it will take to get more women, more girls involved in chess?

Judit Polgár: I think open mindset by parents and trainers. I do hope that there is going to be new Judit Polgár in the future.

Alison Stewart: The name of the documentary is Queen of Chess. It'll premiere on Netflix on February 6th before going-- Actually, after the Sundance Film Festival, that's where it will premiere. My guest has been Judit Polgár, the grand chess master. It is nice to meet you. Thank you for coming to the studio.

Judit Polgár: Thank you very much.

Alison Stewart: There's more All Of It on the way. We have an hour of art you can just walk in and see. No museums required. I'll speak with three artists who have local gallery shows. That's coming up after the news.