Alison Stewart: This is All Of It from WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Jonathan Van Ness is a podcast host, author, a TV host, and now a teacher by way of comedy. Jonathan has a new comedy special out tomorrow called Fun & Slutty. It's framed as "a sex ed class for adults, along with some other lessons, too." They call themselves Professor Jonathan Van Nasty, and they insist on a shame-free zone, inviting audience members to share their wildest sex stories before sharing their own personal confessions, including some carnal feelings about anti-LGBT lawmakers, which gets a laugh, and living with HIV, which gets an uncomfortable laugh, at least before the Professor Nasty explains why it's important to laugh at the things that make us cry. Jonathan Van Ness is in studio now.

Thank you for coming in on this cold day.

Jonathan Van Ness: Thank you so much for having me, honey. We've got to keep it warm.

Alison Stewart: You say that people push back against the word, slutty. Why did you want to center around that word and the idea behind it?

Jonathan Van Ness: I think that so much of the negative views that we have around sex are really based in misogyny, based in this opposition to women having power, control over their bodies, genderqueer people having power and control over their bodies. I just thought, "How can I let people know that I can use that?"

Alison Stewart: You mean slutty?

Jonathan Van Ness: Yes. "How can I let people know that slutty doesn't have to only mean one thing?" It doesn't. It can speak to sexual freedom, but it also can speak to really loving something passionately, whether that's sexual or not. I thought that's something really important that women should know because they don't need to be afraid of owning their love of things.

Alison Stewart: It's so funny because it started on your Instagram. I follow you on Instagram, and these funny little, I don't know, videos would show up. Would you explain to people the background of slutty?

Jonathan Van Ness: Yes. This one day, I was in my house, and this is actually part of the origin story of the special, which I talk about in the special. I was minding my own business. Much like Goldie Hawn's character in First Wives Club, I get my best ideas after having done cardio. I just finished up a little workout. I went into the mirror, and I don't know if it was the Holy Spirit or Mother Nature or my mental health, but it just said, "Get the phone and go to the mirror," and next thing I knew, I said, "You're a hot slut." That's how my affirmation Mondays were born. I think that's where I really realized how many people had a really negative view and idea of just the word slut.

Alison Stewart: You mentioned, tongue-in-cheek, that slutty is because we haven't had good sex ed, basically. What kind of teachable moments did you want to present to us out of the word slutty?

Jonathan Van Ness: I think really so much that we are allowed to be passionate about so many different things, and we can be multifaceted people, and most importantly, that you don't have to change yourself to be loved by other people. I think that's really what I want people to know. Just the rigidity around with which we view gender, the way we view our ability to express our gender, I really wanted people to sit with that a little bit. We go in there pretty hard in the special.

Also, I think we need more comedians. I speak so often about how much I look up to Margaret Cho, Nikki Glaser, more contemporarily, but Lisa Lampanelli, Wanda Sykes, people I grew up watching and loving so much. I don't ever remember seeing someone necessarily like me speak to sex, or speak to living with HIV, or just being in the world the way that I have. I hope that I can be a possibility model for other people that have never seen themselves and be like, "Oh my gosh, I can do that."

Alison Stewart: It was filmed as part of a 2023 tour of this show. What part do you think have really held up from your 2023 show and you thought, "No, that's not necessarily going to go in this show."?

Jonathan Van Ness: There was a few things that hit the editing room floor. If anything, I was really thinking this morning, after what President Trump and Vice President Vance, it doesn't feel better coming out of my mouth now, saying that defining biological sex is man and woman, when we know that up to 2% of people, and I just did the math this morning, so I was curious, that's 3.3 million people. Or wait, no, it's 3.6, or 6-point something. Whatever, I'm not a mathematician, I'm a hairdresser. The point is, 2% of 330 million people is a lot. That's how many millions of people are living with a myriad of intersex conditions.

Like my friend, Alicia Roth Weigel, who I was just texting with on the way over here. I was talking about her on my Insta stories yesterday. Even biologically, there's not two sexes. There are a large amount of people who live within the spectrum of a biological sex, let alone gender expression, which it just seems that some folks will not wrap their head around that's two different things. We're not trying to put those in the same breath. Biological sex is, of course, one thing, and then gender expression is a different thing. Sex and gender aren't the same thing, which is okay. I think we're going to have to dig deep for the patients in the next four years. I think that comedy is a really important tool for us to exercise our patience and our freedom of expression. I shall be utilizing that tool a lot in the next four years.

Alison Stewart: What did you learn from touring with this show that audiences are willing to accept, and then maybe they won't accept it, but it takes them longer to get there?

Jonathan Van Ness: I did a bit in the show where I, and I talk about it in this special, just Christian absolutism, Christian nationalism, that part, I can definitely feel people squirm when all of a sudden I'm referring to myself as a, I'm like, "As someone who looks like a 17th century Italian Jesus, I can just say that he would not like how you guys are acting." When I start to poke a little bit of fun, some Christian ideals, then I definitely see some squirms. I think that it's important for people to have a mirror reflected to them.

Because I grew up in the church. I grew up acolyting every Sunday. I went to a Christian sports camp for two weeks every summer, honey, if you can believe it. I think I have a really interesting perspective, having come where I came from and then going to where I am now. I do think that I have an interesting perspective that resonates with so many people.

Alison Stewart: People should read about that in your biography.

Jonathan Van Ness: Yes, honey. Over the Top, available at all bookstores now.

Alison Stewart: We're talking with Jonathan Van Ness about their new special, Fun & Slutty, a shame-free hour of confessional comedy and sex education you did not get at school.

You put on your hat, Professor Jonathan Van Nasty. Can you share one of your rules for the class about shame?

Jonathan Van Ness: Well--

Alison Stewart: The one you can talk about.

Jonathan Van Ness: Exactly. No, exactly. I think the thing about shame is, according to my therapist, it's, if someone knew this thing about me, then they wouldn't love me anymore. That's what shame is. We all have shame. Everyone can have shame about so many different things. I think that knowing that makes it so much easier to live, because no one is shame-free. I think that the sooner that we can learn to accept, forgive, and love ourselves through whatever the shame that we have, the more fully we can enjoy this very finite time that we get to have in the world. I just think shame holds us back from so many different things, and I think that's a really universal experience, but, honey, I don't want to have that shame holding me back anymore.

Alison Stewart: I have to ask this. You are in this fabulous dress. It's spangly, it's sparkly, and you are wearing high heels. Why do you like performing in heels? I made them all go away. That's my 2025 resolution. I'm done with heels, and I'm like, "They are wearing heels for this entire special."

Jonathan Van Ness: Okay, look. I do prefer a chunkier heel. That was a very unforgiving stiletto.

Alison Stewart: It really was.

Jonathan Van Ness: Look, I'm not Mother Nature. That dress and that shoe, the color story, for me, those weren't made by the same company. This was a Bottega shoe with a STA dress, but the color, they were just talking to each other. That aquamarine, Addison Rae, honey, she's having her moment. Give me that aquamarine. I was obsessed. Need it, must have it. I loved that look. Thanks for noticing, BTDubs.

Not to name drop, but I will just say this. When I got to interview and spend time with Nancy Pelosi, Speaker Emeri-- How do we say her new title? Emeri-- Whatever. Speaker Pelosi. I love her fierce title. She, very famously, in the Capitol, only wore heels. I was wearing these heels in 2018, where I thought I was trailing a line of blood behind me in the Capitol. I was like, if Speaker Pelosi can do this in heels all day, every day, and just do what she has done in heels, I'm not going to complain about heels. Then also, I can hear the showrunner of Queer Eyes voice in my head being like, "Oh, really?" because she seen me crawl off many a carpet the second I get past the press. The little pictures, I'm like, "Oh, my God, my bunions. I feel them pounding in my third eye, my temple."

Alison Stewart: I thought that you dropped it like it's hot in those heels. It was amazing.

Jonathan Van Ness: I did. I'm a very acrobatic person. I don't open my show at gymnastics anymore, but I still do some acrobatic moments in heels.

Alison Stewart: You warm up the crowd with a bit of confessional. Tell us your interesting story. Did people initially talk to you about their stories, or did you ever really have to draw them out?

Jonathan Van Ness: It really depended on the place. I have to say, not that you asked, but I'll say this. Belfast, North Ireland, of every place I ever went, had the most amazing responses, and just really, really brought it. I just think European crowds really brought the heat in a way that, talk about lacking shame. It was amazing. Oh, also, though, Portland, Oregon. Now that I think about it, Portland, Oregon. I actually just got chills on my triceps and my thighs from thinking about this one answer that we got over there in Portland, Oregon, but it was amazing. If you were there, you will remember. If you're listening to this right now from Portland, Oregon, you'll be like, "Wow. Yes, I remember that." I think about it once a week.

Alison Stewart: You filmed this in Austin, Texas. Austin is often this little blue spot in this big red state of Texas. How important was it to shoot it in Austin? You live there?

Jonathan Van Ness: Yes, I've lived there for almost five years. I went there for Queer Eye Season 6, and then I never left. It was really important. I feel like an adopted adult child of Austin. It really feels like it's where I made my home for the last five years. I also think that considering that the state legislators made a really intense point of trying to prevent people from performing in dresses on stage, I was like, "Honey, let me do this here."

I think it was important. I love Austin. I also love emos and the people in Austin. I also just think, not to make everything political, but-

Alison Stewart: It's hard.

Jonathan Van Ness: -this election that we just had, it had turnout that was around 2016 numbers. It wasn't that this mandate was the biggest mandate that anybody's ever had. I just think that queer people in rural spaces, queer people in red states so often get forgot about and looked over and not seen and not celebrated. I really think about that when I'm touring. I try to go to different places. I try to get people in because queer people in red states, they are some of the most amazing people doing the most, and they deserve to be entertained, honey.

Alison Stewart: You are also very much saying, "I'm a patriot," in this show. What made you stand in your high heels and say, "I'm a patriot."?

Jonathan Van Ness: I've been thinking about this idea so much lately, and I don't necessarily say this in the special, but I've been thinking about it a lot and writing about it a lot, which is, I think traditionally when you think about masculinity, it's bravery. It's this ability to stand for what you believe in. It's this ability to be very strong. The strength of my ankles in those heels is much larger than I think.

I walked down the street in a little town called Hannibal, Missouri, at 16 years old in heels, a mini red dress and a scarf tied around my head because I didn't have long hair, and I really wanted to give you that long haired fantasy. I got chased out of the street back into this minivan that I had taken from my grandma's to get to Hannibal to a place where I could walk down or I thought I could walk down the street. The bravery that that took is the bravery that it takes me anytime to wear what I wear, be who I am, whether that's on a red carpet, whether that's on a stage.

Genderqueer people, trans people, non-binary people, we are subjected to violence at a rate that's much higher than other people. I think especially living in a place like Texas, when I go to a place, when I dress how I want to dress, I look for the exits. A lot of people have different experiences that may lead them to have that reaction to being in a large group, but I think that gender queer people, and trans people, non-binary people, we all have that experience in a different way than other people do. I think it's really important for us to take up space, speak our truth, do it where we're going to do it. I forgot what your original question was.

Alison Stewart: Was, why do you consider yourself a patriot? Why is that so important?

Jonathan Van Ness: Oh, yes, that's very brave. I think it's very brave. The way that we take up space, I think is more traditionally masculine on the inside, the bravery or resilience, which are qualities that are much more associated, I think, with masculinity than we think about them as femininity.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about that masculinity part, because you bring this up in the special, that you are able to compartmentalize, especially when it comes to sex or to attractiveness. It's a funny point in the show, but you say there are certain Republican legislators that you find attractive. Josh Hawley, Dan Crenshaw.

Jonathan Van Ness: Oh.

Alison Stewart: Why did you want that sentiment, that sense that you could split the difference, and people to understand that?

Jonathan Van Ness: I'm not used to talking about this when the sun's awake or when the sun's up. Who says that sun's awake? Usually when I do that joke, it's nighttime, the people have been--

Alison Stewart: Should we turn the lights down [inaudible 00:15:11]

Jonathan Van Ness: It makes more sense at nighttime. [inaudible 00:15:14] I don't know. I come from a cornfield. It was Slim Pickens where I come from. If you weren't going to have crushes on the Republicans, who were you going to have crushes on? I say it in the special, the last vestige of the patriarchy is my uncanny ability to completely separate someone's personality from their physical form. Yes, I think Josh Hawley's Adam's apple, I like it. Yes, Mitt Romney stole my heart in 2002 at the Salt Lake Games and never gave it back. I have always thought he was cute. It's gotten me in trouble in Twitter several times. I don't know.

Alison Stewart: It just is.

Jonathan Van Ness: I can't help it. It is what it is.

Alison Stewart: It just is.

Jonathan Van Ness: Yes.

Alison Stewart: That's okay. We're talking with Jonathan Van Ness about their new special, Fun & Slutty, a shame-free hour of confessional comedy and sex education you couldn't get in school.

Let's talk about the algorithm. You talk about that in social media. You spend a lot of time on social media. When did you realize that the algorithm was altering, maybe even the way you looked at things? Let me turn the lights back up.

Jonathan Van Ness: Oh, no, of course. I like it. It's moody. No, turn it up, Queen. Turn it up, it's your world. I'm just living in it.

I wrote this joke, and I was doing this joke over the last year-and-a-half. I think I started Fun & Slutty in the end of 2022 or the beginning of 2023, and I toured it all the way through, October, November of last year.

Alison Stewart: Wow, you've really worked this a long time.

Jonathan Van Ness: Yes, I did a long time. I'm about to go on my next hour, which is Hot & Healed Tour, which I'm so excited about, this new work. I've really been processing my anger in healthy ways. My ADHD's rampant today. You have to tell me again.

Alison Stewart: I was asking about when you started realizing the algorithm was maybe affecting you.

Jonathan Van Ness: When I really got into TikTok and I was like, "Where did two-and-a-half hours go?

Alison Stewart: Scary, isn't it?

Jonathan Van Ness: Yes. I really think the TikTok algorithm knows me better than I know myself. My husband will do this thing where I'll be on TikTok and he'll come up to me and be like, "Our dog just turned into a dragon and flew out of the suitcase." I'll be like, "Yes, I'll be up in three minutes. The chicken sounds amazing." He's like, "You're not here with me. What's going on? Talk to me." Yes, it really can pull your attention.

Alison Stewart: There's something about it that draws you in. What do you think it is that it draws you in? Is it confirming what you already think? I'm curious, what do you think it is?

Jonathan Van Ness: I think it's my hypothesis in the special. I don't want to give away too many spoilers, you guys.

Alison Stewart: No, not too many.

Jonathan Van Ness: I'll just say this. The algorithm is always watching. If you finish that type of content and you don't go off of it, it's going to show you more content like that. If you don't engage with that content for very long and it knows that you don't like that, it's not going to show you more stuff like that. Because the algorithm's whole deal is to keep you there as long as possible. Whether it's Instagram algorithm, or TikTok, wherever, they want to keep you on that app as long as possible. That's everything, the way that it's engineered, the way that I understand it. "Don't cover me, Mark. I love your chain and everything. I love your new chain." This is radio, so ideal.

Not to sound QAnon, but I do think that this is the case because their money is in there. It's how long can you be on these apps.

Alison Stewart: What has it shown you that you didn't really realize about yourself?

Jonathan Van Ness: I'm really afraid of animals getting eaten by other animals.

Alison Stewart: Oh, no.

Jonathan Van Ness: Yes, that's my algorithm. It's giving me Discovery Channel vibes.

Alison Stewart: It means you've watched something.

Jonathan Van Ness: I'm like, "I don't want to see [inaudible 00:19:08] Are they going to get away?"

Alison Stewart: You watch it all the way.

Jonathan Van Ness: I just want the zebra to be okay. I want the zebra to get away. It's similar with hair color, you guys.

Alison Stewart: Oh.

Jonathan Van Ness: Sometimes I see some real travesties with hair color that feels like Discovery Channel. I'm just like, "Oh my gosh, what's happening over there? It's a lot of beauty. It's a lot of animal stuff." Recently on my TikTok algorithm, you guys, now that it's come back, this is a lot, but there's no cussing involved. It's this Spanish speaking ear health lab where all they're doing is these deep ear flushes. I don't know where, but everyone's speaking Spanish. The stuff coming out of these people's ears is so next level. Last night, it was that, and then the next video was this tutorial by Mikayla Nogueira about how to do some makeup application. I was just like, "Wow." My algorithm is giving you external beauty, internal earwax health. I just don't even know what the matter is.

Alison Stewart: I'm trying to figure out what's the connection there.

Jonathan Van Ness: The [unintelligible 00:20:07] I don't know.

Alison Stewart: I don't know.

Jonathan Van Ness: I've been trying to figure it out for 37 years.

Alison Stewart: I did want to talk about, in the show, and you've talked about it personally, is you talk about rehab, which I didn't see coming. It came out and got me in the show. It's like, "We're going, we're going, we're going, whoa, he's really going deep into your rehab life." Why was that important that you wanted to include that in this show? Which is really funny and really sexy, and then this deep part about rehab.

Jonathan Van Ness: I just think that story's so funny.

Alison Stewart: Do you think it's funny?

Jonathan Van Ness: Kind of.

Alison Stewart: It's [unintelligible 00:20:46]

Jonathan Van Ness: How many people have to go to a blindfolded rope maze in the middle of Tennessee?

Alison Stewart: That's true.

Jonathan Van Ness: Let's talk about spoilers. You've got to see what happens. I don't know why I always turn into a politician when I talk about rehab.

Alison Stewart: I think that looks funny.

Jonathan Van Ness: I think rehab is a really universal thing that I went through. I also think that one thing that I talk about so much in the special is asking for help.

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Jonathan Van Ness: I think both in the salon and in rehab are two places in my life where I've really learned how to ask for help.

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's interesting.

Jonathan Van Ness: I think without both therapeutic environments, rehab and the relationship that I have with my therapist, who without, I would not be where I am, without the salon, I would not have made it. I wouldn't have made it through any of the stuff that I've been through. It was really the community of both of those spaces. There's a few people from both of my rehabs who I still talk to that have been some of the most important people to me in my life. I just think I got so much health and just so much healing out of it. I think that's why I like to talk about it, and also the story really is just hilarious.

Alison Stewart: Why didn't you ask for help before?

Jonathan Van Ness: Because I think we're taught to never ask for. At least in the Midwest, it's like, "Don't ask for help. Don't stick out. Just pull yourself up by the bootstraps, get it together, and just don't be a nuisance." I think asking for help always made me feel like I was weak or I shouldn't need to ask for help in the first place.

Alison Stewart: You also talk about HIV in the show. Why do you think it's important for HIV, in particular, to find-- You find humor in it. Why is it important to find humor in something that's serious?

Jonathan Van Ness: I think stigma and shame are very closely related.

Alison Stewart: Oh, interesting.

Jonathan Van Ness: I think that shame thrives in secret and in darkness. What can't be exposed to light, you can't heal through it. I think that's one aspect of it. You've got to expose everything to light. Because also as scared as I was of HIV, it's not amazing, but I take a pill once a day. I feel amazing. I've never been cuter. The life expectancy of someone who's been diagnosed with HIV, and this was in 2012, is 50 to 75 years. It's not a terminal illness. This is a chronic disease that was very scary one that we've made so much progress on, but we need to keep talking about it.

I think another thing that we need to keep talking about is the Supreme Court literally just took up a case that allows this Texas employer that doesn't want to provide PrEP to their employees through the Affordable Care Act because they think that providing prep promotes homosexual behavior. What I'm so scared for these Christians to know, I don't know if they know this in Texas, but bisexual people exist, and heterosexual women have also enjoyed the benefits of access to PrEP.

New HIV infections have gone down so much because of PrEP, and limiting access to it is a literal threat to public health. It's just so crazy, and I just hope women know that this is happening. HIV doesn't care if you're straight. It doesn't care if you're gay. It doesn't care your gender. It doesn't give a-- Yes, thank you so much. Oh, did I just say it? Oh, I almost said, you could feel it coming. I almost said the S word, you guys. I'm so glad I didn't. Oh, my God. Thank God. It doesn't care. I want everyone to know that because I'm really passionate about HIV prevention and HIV awareness.

Alison Stewart: That's the kind of sex education you should get at school, but you don't. You can get it from watching Fun & Slutty-

Jonathan Van Ness: On Veeps.

Alison Stewart: -on Veeps with Jonathan Van Ness. Your ring's beautiful, by the way.

Jonathan Van Ness: Thank you so much.

Alison Stewart: Look at that.

Jonathan Van Ness: I know. I'm obsessed.

Alison Stewart: Do you do that thing where you pretend, "I have to go over there. I have to show that."

Jonathan Van Ness: [inaudible 00:24:46]

Alison Stewart: Our guest was Jonathan Van Ness. We were talking about their new Fun & Slutty special on Veep. Thank you so much for coming to our studio. I really appreciate it. It's such a cold day. It's nice to see you in person.

Jonathan Van Ness: Thanks so much for having me.