Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in SOHO. Thank you so much for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here. Before we get started with the show, I want to tell you that our extremely popular Broadway on the Radio series will return in two weeks. What is Broadway on the Radio, you ask? That's when we invite the cast and creative team behind some of Broadway's hottest musicals into the green space for an hour of live radio that is full of performances, and we broadcast it in front of a live audience that could include you. Our next event is happening on Thursday, March 19th at noon, and it is a star-studded revival about a Cold War love triangle. Chess, the musical.

Time flies – doesn't seem a minute

Since the Tyrolean spa had the chess boards in it

All changed, don't you know that when you

Play at this level there's no ordinary venue

It's Iceland, or the Philippines, or Hastings Or

Or this place

One night in Bangkok and the world's your oyster

The bars are temples but their pearls ain't free

You'll find a god in every golden cloister

And if you're lucky, then the god's a she

I can feel an angel slidin' up to me

One town's very like another--

Alison Stewart: We'll have the show's three stars, Aaron Tveit, Nicholas Christopher, and Lea Michele, all here at WNYC performing live. Go to wnyc.org/chess to get more information and to buy your tickets. Now, if you can't make it to this event in person, don't worry. You can always tune in for free live on the radio, or via our livestream on YouTube. Again, that's wnyc.org/chess. Plus, there will be more announcements to come, so stay tuned. That's in the future. Now, let's get this hour started.

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For many people, the decision to have children can feel complicated. Birth rates in the US have been declining for years, as people wait longer to have kids, or decide not to have them at all, and there is a huge range for that reason. Of course, there's the financial aspect of it. For others, it's about their career. There's a big fear that having a child can slow down your professional trajectory, and then there's the cultural conversation about motherhood.

People are talking more openly about the hard part parts of parenting, the exhaustion, the cost, the strain on relationships. How do prospective parents navigate all of it? The Cut has been exploring that in a question in a new series called Oh Baby. The essays feature women at different stages of the decision from people who regret having children, from people who become single mothers by choice, and others who feel paralyzed by how much information they have about the risks. Joining me now to talk about the series is Jen Ortiz. She's deputy editor at The Cut. Jen, welcome to All Of It.

Jen Ortiz: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: Hey, listeners, we'd like to get you in on this conversation. What went into your decision about whether to, or whether not to have children? Was it financial, political, personal? You can call us. Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, and if you prefer, you can remain anonymous, you can also text us at that number as well. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, call or text. With the Oh Baby series, Jen, what was the questions that you were setting out to answer?

Jen Ortiz: Sure. We wanted to hear from people who are in the middle of making that decision, and what are the factors that they're considering both on their own, and with their partner, and in terms of their career, and other caregiving responsibilities they have. How do you make that decision to have a family, to grow your family when there is so much else to consider, both as just a human in the world, but then also in your relationship, and your career and all of that?

Alison Stewart: Was there any reason you did it right now, particularly right now?

Jen Ortiz: Well, it actually came up in an ideas meeting we had at the beginning of the year. As a staff, we do a big brainstorm at the top of each year, and we do these theme weeks every month, and this came up as something that was in a lot of folks' conversations and group chats at the moment, and I think, yes, it's a little evergreen, in that, it's always in the ether. People are always making this decision, but the world is especially scary right now. It's especially hard right now, and I think this conversation is being had a lot within that context with people, and yes, it just felt right to tackle it this month.

Alison Stewart: As you said, it's been in the conversation for a long time. Was there any part of the conversation about parenting that you thought was overlooked that people hadn't dug into quite as much as they had in the past?

Jen Ortiz: Sure. I think the question of regret felt like something that it's a little taboo, right? It's a little harder to talk about, and so maybe those conversations aren't had as much. That question isn't asked as much perhaps, so that was something we knew early on that we were interested in tackling as a question. Then, something else that came up in the process of assigning and talking with writers was, it was not opposite of that, but on another, on the flip side of that was the decision women are making to be single mothers by choice, and what that looks like, and how do you come to that decision, and how do you take the steps in career, home life, to make that choice? Yes, these were questions that felt not that they hadn't been asked before, but they hadn't been asked in a way that we were interested in trying to answer.

Alison Stewart: Well, let's go into regret.

Jen Ortiz: Sure.

Alison Stewart: People talk openly about it with you, some mothers get really into it, how they thought that they would be happier if they hadn't had kids. When they say, "Happier", what did they mean?

Jen Ortiz: I think there's a grief a lot of the women expressed in this particular story, which was written by one of our staff writers, Bindu, for the version of themselves that they were before they had children. I think, thinking about what could have been, and the "what ifs", and imagining that the hard parts of being a parent just wouldn't be a factor in their daily lives right now, I think that that is what they mean by happier.

I think it's worth pointing out that, I believe all of the women who were interviewed love their children, and they say as much, and it's not a question of whether or not they love their kid, or love their kids enough, but how they just feel about themselves, and the version of themselves that they were before motherhood and parenthood, and that version that they can't necessarily get back because what's done is done.

Alison Stewart: I'm wondering how much of that has to do with their identity. Are they now mothers first? When you describe themselves to people, what is the feeling about motherhood for the women who said that they might have regret?

Jen Ortiz: Sure. I mean, I think it's that, it is to a certain degree, yes, you're a mother first, in that the responsibilities that you have as a parent have to, because of necessity, often triumph whatever else is going on. If your kid is sick and the school is calling you to come pick them up, it doesn't really matter how important that three o'clock meeting is, that you have no choice, but to go do that unless, you know of course, if you're blessed with [chuckles] childcare, that can take care of that, sure, but you're still, even in that scenario, there's still the emotional labor of organizing that care, and worrying about your sick child.

You're not suddenly going to be 100% present that afternoon at work that you might have been, if that hadn't happened, and so I think that, yes, it's not-- You can't divide your identity from parenthood, whether you're a mother, or a father, or a parent generally. I think it's neither first nor second. It's just like, "This is who I am now."

Alison Stewart: We're talking about the big life altering decision many people face whether, or not to have children. A new series from New York Magazine called Oh Baby explores how you come to that decision, and how you feel about it later. My guest is Jen Ortiz, Deputy Editor of The Cut, who helped put together the whole series. We want to hear from you what went into your decision about whether or not to have children?

Did you always know you wanted to be a parent? Did you change, change your mind? Why? 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. That's our phone number. Are you still struggling to navigate it with your partner? Give us a call. Of course, you can remain anonymous if you like. Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We have a call on line two. This is Mina calling in from New Jersey. Mina, thanks for taking the time to call All Of It.

Nima Patel: Hello, everyone, this is Nima Patel speaking. I ended up having a baby at 45. I always knew I wanted to be a mother, but for people, I would highly recommend you really think it over if you really want to be a mother or not. Not everyone has that maternal instinct like the guest said, so if you do not have it, I don't see why anyone would just do it for the sake of competition.

This is definitely-- Motherhood is a lot of work. Just like the guest said, it takes a village to raise a kid, but in this day and age, there is no village, there's just you, and unfortunately, you have to pay through the nose to get childcare, and there's not much help. Even though I'm very close to my neighbors, and even though we have kids in the neighborhood, everyone just seems to be fairly Busy where that support system just does not exist.

Same in society. I find even people otherwise who may not be my neighbors, it's very hard to find that support for people who are, say, immigrants, or who have been there for a long time even. Everyone just seems super busy in their own lives with very little support, so if you're going to have a baby, definitely takes a lot of work. I don't know how single moms do it, but me, I was pretty sure I needed someone else to help me take care of the baby, and hence I ended up waiting this long, but having a baby by yourself is a major decision, and I would definitely think this over, because it's a lot harder than I thought it was.

Maybe it's because of my age, but this is definitely a lot more work, and like the guest said, very little choice in terms of your emotional investment, your physical investment, your financial investment, and it incurs all of those when you have a baby.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling. Let's talk to Deborah in West Orange, New Jersey. Hi, Deborah. Thanks for making the time to call All Of It. You're on the air.

Deborah: Hi. I happen to be a surgeon, and I raised three kids who are now professionals. One's a dentist, one's a cardiologist, and one's a writer, and you can do it. Yes. What the caller ahead of us said you definitely need good, reliable help, but it can vary successfully be done, and I don't think it's any different than any other commitment you make in your life.

Alison Stewart: Thank you for calling in. Let's Talk to Carl on line four, who's calling us from Miami. Hi, Carl.

Carl: Hi, Alison. Yes, I just wanted to just say that it's just hard to be a parent when you didn't plan on being a parent, and I'm in that situation, and I'm taking care of my nephew. He's on a spectrum, so that's an added difficulty. I don't know, I guess I've just had to come to terms with it, but I mean, I didn't even think about it until, like the years just kept passing like, "Oh, I'm a parent." [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: What's been the hardest part for you, Carl?

Carl: Just-- Well, just dealing with all that administrative stuff, because dealing with the caseworkers, and school, changing schools, finding the right teachers. I have to take care of my mother as well, and trying to take care of myself as well, because my health has slightly declined because I just forgot to take care of myself.

Alison Stewart: Carl, we wish you the best. Jen, out of all those calls, is there anything you wanted to respond to, anything you reacted to?

Jen Ortiz: Sure. I think, from the first caller, the idea of really thinking it through, of course, yes. [chuckles] That is the subject of one of the stories we ran about a cult classic book called The Baby Decision that came out in 1981 by Merle Bombardieri, and Sanjena, the writer of the piece. Both profiled the author a bit, but also explored why the book is so popular, and it is sort of a self-help/workbook that helps parents make this decision.

It's caught fire with millennials who are thinking about entering parenthood and having a baby, and it really is one of those things, where it walks you through different scenarios, imagining the kid that you could have at every age, and how that would feel, imagining the person you would be 5, 10, 15 years from now if you didn't have kids, and so I think that is certainly something that people are really thinking about when they're making this decision, is really thinking through, not just do I want this right now, but what will it look like now, later, in the future? What will I look like then? Yes, I agree, really think through the decision. [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: We're talking about the big life altering decision to have children. A new series from New York Magazine called Oh Baby explores that decision to become a parent, some regret it, some feel great about the decision. My guest is Jen Ortiz, Deputy Editor of The Cut, who helped put the whole series together. Listeners, we want to get you in on this conversation. What went into your decision about whether or not to have children? Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. After the break, we'll have more of your text and your call. Stay with us.

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You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. We're discussing what went into your decision about whether or not to have children. Our guest is Jen Ortiz, Deputy Editor of The Cut, who helped put together a series called Oh Baby, which explores this. I wanted to talk about the political backdrop briefly since the overturning of Roe v. Wade in 2022, access to abortion and reproductive health care varies widely across this country. How much is that shaping the way women think about pregnancy and motherhood?

Jen Ortiz: I think it's shaping it hugely. I think if you live in a state where abortion care is not accessible, then pregnancy care, in a sense, is not accessible either. They go hand-in-hand, and to ensure that you are going to be taken care of. You have to know that you're in a place where you can get the full spectrum of care that is part of prenatal care, so, yes, I think that, that is a major decision.

It's something that one of our staff writers, Andrea Gonzalez Ramirez, talks about in her essay, maybe knowing too much about motherhood ruined me, and it's certainly a factor for a lot of people who are in states where that's not a guarantee.

Alison Stewart: Our phone lines are blowing up. Let's get some more. Jessica's calling in from Brooklyn Heights. Hi, Jessica, you are on the air.

Jessica: Hi. I just wanted to say I think there are a lot of Gen X women who may have been on the fence, but it just didn't occur to us that we could not have children, that we could opt out, and I think there's a lot of writing about it, and entertainment, television shows depicting it, and I think it's really healthy, because I feel like I had a lot of peer group people who would say things like, "Oh, I couldn't imagine my life without my children."

I just always thought it was such BS, because I could imagine the hell out of my life without my children. I love my children, which, I look at me having to qualify this, but I just-- I can absolutely imagine the sliding doors version, and I just appreciate people being more honest about that.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in. Yes, there are several communities on Reddit, especially where people talk about this quite openly. Why are those spaces so important for people to be able to say, "I love my kids, but?"

Jen Ortiz: Sure.

Alison Stewart: But.

Jen Ortiz: Yes. [chuckles] But, but, but. Well, I think that all parents face a lot of judgment, right? You're judged for every decision that you make when it comes to your child. I think it's scary to be that honest, and it's scary to worry how others might see you, or perceive you as a parent if you complain about anything, or if you maybe doubt something. I think a space like Reddit, which is anonymous, and allows people to have the protection of, or the comfort, really, of being behind a screen, allows folks to talk more openly about that thing.

As the caller is intimating there, the more you talk about it, the less scary it is to bring it up, and the more you realize you're part of a community, than you are just alone on an island feeling that way.

Alison Stewart: Let me read a couple of texts. This says, "I was ambivalent about having kids, but then I had my daughter when I was 35. For years, some as a single mom, I never felt I brought 100% anywhere. Motherhood, work, friends. I was lucky to have a supportive community of moms where we all helped each other. My daughter will be 30 this year and hands down, the best decision of my life was to bring her into it." That's from Janice from Upstate.

This says, "I'm 35 years old and I knew from a young age I never wanted to be a mom. In my early 20s, I saw how that became an issue in relationships. I had several serious long term relationships end because of my decision. I made my stance very clear very early on, and my exes all thought I'd change my mind. Not having children and staying in New York City long term have been the major reasons all my adult relationships have ended. Still no regrets." That was an interesting part of this series, where people changed their minds. Tell us a little bit more about the people who decided to change their minds, and how their partners reacted?

Jen Ortiz: Sure, yes. One of our senior writers, Angelina Chapin, talked to a number of women for her story who were in relationships with men, and had been very clear about their stance of not wanting to have children, and found that in common, at least in the beginning, with the men that they were seeing, and over time, those men change their minds. It's a really hard bump [chuckles] in a relationship to really be able to climb over together.

If one person really wants a kid, and the other one doesn't, there's no middle ground there, and so, yes, this story talks to a number of women who, their relationship ended because of that, because they couldn't agree to stick with the plan, so to speak, that they agreed on at the start of their relationship, and that's a tough one. I now know that for every situation, there's a different answer for what the couple decides to do, or what feels right for them.

Alison Stewart: Talk to Nancy in Queens. Nancy, thanks for making the time to call All Of It. You're on the air.

Nancy: Hi. I am now 75 years old. However, when I was young, I was married, happily married, and we talked about having children, but I never wanted children. Because we were both musicians, and I couldn't see how it was hard enough for us to survive to try to be responsible for someone else, so we never had children, and I am really happy, because when I look at all my friends with kids, they have so many problems, and grandkids who have so many problems. Anyway, that's my story.

Alison Stewart: [chuckles] Okay, Nancy, thanks for calling in. Let's talk to Amy, who's calling from Montclair, New Jersey. Hi, Amy, you're on the air.

Amy: Oh, wow. Hi. I just wanted to say that, it's what I said to the screener was about, I guess every choice is about compromise, and compensation in life, and I feel like things get set up like, "Well, if I have a kid then I'm never going to do X," or, "If I have a kid, I'm never going to do X, and if I don't have a kid, I'm never going to get to do." Any choice that you make is going to give you some benefits and great stuff, and some things you're not going to get to do.

I just think that all-- I think just as adults, one just needs to understand that whatever choice you make, there's always going to be something that balances out that's going to need to be balanced out, and not-- You can make a choice. It doesn't-- If you choose to have a kid, or you choose not to have a kid, either of those choices is going to give you-- You're going to lose something and gain something. You know what I mean? I just feel like it doesn't have to be this all or nothing feeling even going into it one way. You know what I mean?

Alison Stewart: Thanks for calling. Let's talk to Hillary from the Upper East Side. Hi, Hillary, thank you so much for calling, All Of It.

Hillary: Hi, there. Thank you so much. I'm a big fan. A story I wanted to share was my sister-in-law after having her second baby, I came into the room while she was pumping, and she was just exposed and weeping to herself that nothing belonged to her anymore. Her body didn't belong to her, her time didn't belong to her. Her attention and her interest, nothing belonged to her anymore, and I know that, that's part of her postpartum journey, but that was one of the deciding factors that I am, and will continue to be childless at 36.

Alison Stewart: Hilary, thanks for the call. Did you want to respond to anything?

Jen Ortiz: Sure. I think the idea of balance is a tricky one. One of the sources in the regret piece entered motherhood with assurances from her husband, from her mother, about the help that she would receive, and the way that they would balance out the responsibilities, and she was in a place, at least, at the time that she was interviewed, where she didn't feel like she was getting all of the support that she needed, and she was shouldering more than she expected to emotionally, physically, mentally, so the balance isn't necessarily guaranteed, and is part of what factors into, both the decision making, but also the really complicated feelings after the fact, after the decision has been made.

Alison Stewart: Throughout the series, I noticed it comes up in conversations a lot like, "Should I bring my kid into the world now?" Yes, it's pretty bleak. Climates, war. What did parents say to you about bringing kids into the world in 2026, '27, '28? Hopefully, we'll get to '29.

[laughter]

Jen Ortiz: Yes, I mean, I think it is really scary. I think, often, parents feel a little bit of judgment in that sense of feeling like, "Well, how could you bring a kid into this world?" Feeling defensive about that decision. I think there's a different reason for everyone of why making the choice now. I think kids bring a lot of hope to a person and to a family, and is the most hopeful decision you could make because you're thinking really ahead into the future, and that there is a future to think about.

Yes, I think it's also a big factor in why a lot of people are deciding not to have a child. I don't know, for those who are really concerned about the declining birth rate, it's like, "Well, are you as concerned about the declining health of the planet, of the end of democracy, of so many other things that would impact, that are impacting us now, and will continue to impact us for years to come?" If we can make things better, if we can solve the affordability crisis, maybe the decision won't be as hard for some folks to make.

Alison Stewart: I think we take one final call. Let's talk to Alex, who's calling in from Philly. Alex, you're on the air.

Alex: Hi. This is a really interesting topic, so a little backstory. I've known since I was very little that I never wanted to have physical children, like physically have children, but I love kids. I would love to have a family. Give me a starting five lineup. That's my way to go. I ended up marrying someone just this past summer who grew up in a very Catholic household, and his mom is very Catholic.

I know that that's been a discussion with their family, and between me and them as well, but they've all been very supportive with my not necessarily wanting to have kids. However, it has brought up the conversation about how men are entirely not socialized to think about how their bodies are going to function moving forward, and what it means to actually be a parent for them.

Every date I went on in college, if a man asked me if I wanted to have kids, and I said, "I didn't," he'd ask, what's wrong with me? Do I have cancer? Am I physically ill? I'd say, "No, I just I'd rather be who I am, and bring those kids in when they need me," that kind of thing. For women, we months to month to month, we think about our bodies, we think about our future, because we get our periods, or we don't get them, whatever it might be, but we think about that every single month.

We talk to each other, "Oh, I'm cramping today. Can you hand me a tampon?" Whatever it is. For men, they don't think about that. It's never part of the conversation when they grow up. It's never part of the conversation when they're teenagers. The only time they're interacting with female bodies, or their own future is when there's like an accident. The condom broke, whatever it is.

I just really feel like socializing men at a very young age to think about their own future outside of themselves is so important. We women are taught to do that, but men just don't seem to have ever been had that conversation, or have ever been introduced to it, so that's just my two cents. Luckily, I found someone who's very supportive of me, but it has taken time to get there, and it's been very eye opening, I think, for him and the family as well.

Alison Stewart: Alex, thank you for the thoughtful comment. As we wrap up after working on this series, did anything surprise you about the way people thought about children, your own thoughts about children?

Jen Ortiz: I don't know that anything necessarily surprised me. I think the methods in which folks are finding the answer for themselves was really fascinating. Whether you're using a workbook, or you're turning to Reddit for some really candid advice and stories from other people who have been in a similar place as you, I think those, those are the parts of those stories that really caught my eye in terms of [chuckles] my own baby decision.

I've made that one for myself already, and this maybe reaffirmed how I feel about certain things. [chuckles] I felt very seen by Andrea's essay about, has knowing too much about motherhood ruined me? I certainly know a lot, and I think it's [chuckles] helped me make my decision that I'm very comfortable with, much to my mother's disappointment, but, yes, I think if anything is most surprising, it's just that it's how hard the decision is for some folks, and how gut wrenching and complicated it can be, whether you're in a relationship, or not to come to that decision.

Alison Stewart: Thanks to all of our listeners who called in, and thank you very much to Jen Ortiz. She's Deputy Editor of The Cut. The magazine series, Oh Baby in New York Magazine. You should go and check it out now. Thanks for being with us.

Jen Ortiz: Thank you so much.