Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in SoHo. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here, and thanks to everyone who came out last night for our Get Lit With All Of It Book Club event at the New York Public Library. We had a blast. Stay tuned for the announcement of our November book. On today's show, pianist Hania Rani performs live in WNYC Studio 5. Singer, songwriter Ledisi joins us for a Listening Party for her latest album, and the artist Uman is here to talk about two new exhibits of her work in our area. That's our plan. Let's get this started with the new film I Wish You All The Best.

[music]

Alison Stewart: A coming-of-age film tells the story of Ben, a non-binary teenager living in the South. It's titled I Wish You All The Best. It's based on Mason Deaver's young adult novel of the same name. It's a directorial debut feature from Tommy Dorfman and stars Corey Fogelmanis as Ben who is kicked out of their home after coming out to their parents. Ben's much older sister comes to his aid, no question asked. She gets Ben settled in her home with her husband and their new baby. She even enrolls Ben at the school where her husband works as a teacher.

In the film, we see Ben adjust to a new environment while still trying to figure out, well, their life. The Daily Beast said of the film, " Fogelmanis and Dorfman are a dynamic duo, certainly the right people to tell this story. The upcoming and current generation of queer and especially non-binary youth is lucky to have this movie in their back pocket as they continue to explore their identities." I Wish You All The Best opens in theaters next Friday, November 7th. Joining us to discuss the film is director Tommy Dorfman who last visited the show when she joined us to talk about starring in the play Becoming Eve. Tommy, welcome back.

Tommy Dorfman: Hi. It's so good to be back.

Alison Stewart: And joining us is the film star sitting across from me, Corey Fogelmanis, who plays Ben.

Corey Fogelmanis: Hi. So happy to be here.

Alison Stewart: It is nice to meet you as well. Tommy, Mason Deaver published this novel in 2019. What fascinated you about it?

Tommy Dorfman: When I got the manuscript for the book, I was enthralled. I read it in one sitting. I cried, I laughed. I felt seen and valuable and understood as a non-binary person at the time in ways that I couldn't imagine a teen book would do at the age of 27, 28. I immediately felt that we were missing a movie like this in the canon, both for queer people but also for allies and really the world at large, so it became my mission from that point on to write this film, direct this film, and get it to as wide of audiences as possible to experience Ben's beautiful journey of becoming.

Alison Stewart: Corey, you read the novel, yes?

Corey Fogelmanis: Yes.

Alison Stewart: What did you think about the way the characters were written?

Corey Fogelmanis: Well, what I loved so much about Mason's book was this inner monologue and really getting to be inside Ben's head. It was so heartbreaking, I think, for me to see this kid just not be feeling the way they want to be feeling and not get the support that they need, and so when we went over to do the movie, it was really important to me that we started in that place but then also shined some hope on their journey and where they end up.

Alison Stewart: The saddest line in the film is when he's wearing sad hoodies.

Corey Fogelmanis: Yes.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: It just really gets you, like, "Oh my gosh, this poor person is just wearing sad hoodies all the time."

Corey Fogelmanis: Yes, hiding themselves. Yes, very protective.

Alison Stewart: This is your first big starring film role.

Corey Fogelmanis: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Tell us a little bit about the audition process.

Corey Fogelmanis: Ooh. Well, I got a self-tape, and I'd been aware of the project because I'd seen Tommy post about the book years prior.

Alison Stewart: Oh.

Corey Fogelmanis: Honestly, it was pre-COVID, and I remember just being so drawn to the cover art before I even knew anything about what the book was. I was just like, "This is so beautiful, and I need to engage with this," and so I bought the book. Then when the audition came around, and I put it on tape, it was this beautiful melding of what Tommy had written on the page and the way it felt to my body. It was so strangely easy. I didn't feel like I had to push or fight its way into me. We did two scenes. In the second scene, I did one take, then I was like, "This is right." Like this feels so right. I sent it in, and I did a chemistry read and chatted with Tommy a bunch. Then a month later, we were filming it.

Alison Stewart: Tommy, what goes into writing a screenplay from already existing material for you anyway?

Tommy Dorfman: Yes, I think it's different for everyone. My approach with this book, because, to Corey's point, it almost reads like a diary, like you're really introspective, you're in this single POV with Ben going through this experience of being kicked out of their parents' house, reconnecting with their sister, falling in love, an immense amount of internal conflict that can be hard to translate to screen, so my job at the start is bringing that internal world into a visual medium. For me, concentrating characters so that there's a lot of clarity about why each person is in each scene and what are they doing to move the story forward. There's sort of just a pragmatic approach that I have.

Ultimately, it was a gift because I got to kind of play all of these characters in the process of writing it and really put myself in their shoes, embrace their circumstances. Even the parents, who I think could be villainized so easily if you're not thinking about them on a deeper level, trying to understand their motivations, even if I don't agree with them, offered a lot of compassion and grace for me just out in the world as a trans person, frankly, and people who don't understand me. Yes, but the process was really-- I spent many years breaking the film version of it because I think they're two very, very different mediums.

I had a lot of liberties given to me from Mason, the author of the source material. I tried-- The first draft is always the dream draft. It's the fantasy version of all the things I could stretch and possibly change from the book, and then it's a matter of corseting and focusing and honing in on specificity and just beat by beat, how are we moving the story forward in a way that audiences can engage with and won't get bored of and won't be confused. I have a deep responsibility, of course, to Mason, but also I feel to trans people and queer people in my community to do right by Ben's story.

The goal with this film was to make it as accessible as possible for those who might not understand the trans experience, the non-binary experience, and maybe see themselves, if not in Ben, in Alexandra Daddario's character, Hannah, or Lena Dunham's character, Ms. Lyons, like, these people who come in to support and buoy a kid who is really struggling with their own safety and sense of self-worth and focus and artistry and body and autonomy and all of those things.

Alison Stewart: A new coming-of-age film follows a non-binary teenager who moves in with their sister after they're kicked out of their parents' house. It's titled I Wish You All The Best. It's in theaters Friday, November 7th. In the beginning of the film, Ben is preparing to talk to their parents, and we see his notes written. Not a lot is said initially about that, about what's going to happen with them. How did you and Tommy decide to play these moments, Corey?

Corey Fogelmanis: I think just as truthful as possible. When we shot that sequence, we kind of played out the whole thing. When Tommy cut the film together, she kind of chopped it up and used it for flashbacks and stuff. When we were shooting it on the day, we were running around the house, we were working with Amy and Judson, who play my parents, to really kind of find what each beat was. It was really inspiring.

I remember a moment where Amy was saying that she felt like, from her perspective of things, she needed something else to happen to really get to this point where she does what she does by kicking me out, and so we added this moment where I say something that is just the worst thing I could have said to her, and she retaliates. It was really just kind of us in that kitchen, and me with this thing that I need to say and feeling like it's the hardest thing that I could ever say and then just kind of living it out. Yes.

Alison Stewart: Yes. Tommy, when you set up the family, like, at the very beginning, there's sort of like a perfect family, it's near Christmas, they're watching a movie together on the couch.

Tommy Dorfman: Yes.

Alison Stewart: What did you want us to understand about the family before everything goes down?

Tommy Dorfman: I felt like it was important to acknowledge that there's love there. I think love can come in quietness and also-- But the score and the way in which I think we shot it, it's clear that something is going to happen and probably happen quickly. It boils over quite expediently at the top, but I wanted to just ground ourselves for the only time, really, in what Ben's life looked like before, which is repression, which is a little bit of-- which is silent, which isn't freedom of expression, which is cold. The parents are sort of talking more than the child, and the child is taking different directions in that space. It felt to me like we needed to see some of that connection before we lose them until they come back later in the film.

We played out, to Corey's point, every single moment of what that coming-out sequence, into the rage of mom and dad, into kicking their child out of the home, slamming the door, locking it, and been lost on the streets. To me, that offered a lot of internal clarity for all of our actors for all of their other scenes so that even if the audience isn't privy to every single moment that happens, because I don't think we need to be to understand what's going on. I think audiences are smart. I don't want to traumatize people either in some of these moments.

We come back to certain beats that feel really integral to the story that we're telling throughout the film, but making sure that everything feels like it's from Ben's perspective, and so I played a lot with the memories in the way that Ben might remember them. We see, in that, like, Ben's memory is really spotty. Then more pieces of the puzzle come together by the end of the film, more clarity comes through questions from other people as Ben starts to feel safer. Ben might not remember anything beyond the door slam or the slap or the physical altercation that comes between them and their mother, but eventually, we sort of build those pieces back out.

It also gave our actors, I think, a lot of room to build up into more intensity and gave Corey a lot to think about internally in some of the quieter moments alone at home or moments of emotional regression or stasis in which Ben is not able to engage with other people with the same amount of comfortability and ease because of what happened to them.

Alison Stewart: Ben decides to call his sister sort of-

Tommy Dorfman: Their sister.

Alison Stewart: Their sister. Thank you. -out of desperation. What role does Hannah play in Ben's life up until this point?

Corey Fogelmanis: Oh, up until this point, Hannah is very much just a stranger. I think it's the hardest thing for them to do in this moment, but there's really no one else for them to call. In watching the movie, it's really beautiful to see those first couple of scenes between Hannah and Ben where she's really trying so hard to engage and make contact, and it's just not easy. There's so much distance between them, and seeing her continue to push through that is so beautiful.

Alison Stewart: It's wild. They don't even know the baby's name.

Corey Fogelmanis: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Right? They've never met the baby before.

Tommy Dorfman: Yes.

Corey Fogelmanis: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to a scene. Well, first of all, Hannah doesn't know that much what's gone on with Ben.

Corey Fogelmanis: No.

Alison Stewart: Right? Why is that?

Corey Fogelmanis: Well, because it was so bad the last time, I don't know what's going to happen, I don't feel safe sharing this information.

Alison Stewart: Well, let's listen to this clip from I Wish You All The Best. In this scene, Ben's parents search for them at their sister's house, Hannah's house. Let's listen, and we can talk about it on the other side.

[clip plays]

Hannah: Actual? What are the two of you doing here right now?

Amy: Hannah, we're not looking to start a fight.

Thomas: Good to see you, sweetie.

Hannah: That doesn't answer my question.

Thomas: We just came to see if Ben was here.

Amy: [name], is that my grandson?

Hannah: No, it's not, and I don't know where Ben is. I haven't seen him in a decade.

[baby crying]

Amy: Hey, don't you lie to me, girl.

Hannah: Why? Did you kick him out or something?

Thomas: Ben had a choice. Ben chose wrong.

Hannah: You mean because he's gay?

Amy: Is that what he said?

Hannah: That's not even half of it.

Amy: Ben. Benjamin.

Thomas: Son.

Amy: Benjamin.

Hannah: Get off my property.

Thomas: Ben.

Amy: You know what? We might have to call the police because I would like to hear what they have to say about you kidnapping your brother.

Hannah: Kidnapping my brother? You kicked him out of the house. You abandoned him. [crosstalk] Get off my property.

[arguing]

Amy: I want my son back.

[baby crying]

[clip ends]

Alison Stewart: That is from the film I Wish You All The Best. Tommy, why is Corey keeping the details about what happened to them from her?

Tommy Dorfman: I think, to me, there's a lot of fear about what if Hannah and Thomas, their sister and brother-in-law, react in a similar way of misunderstanding as their parents did. As a trans person who's come out so many times in different ways with different people, you feel like you're constantly having to clarify identity, correct pronouns, do this stuff. It can be really exhausting and taxing, and so for a kid like Ben, whose first time resulted in a full ostracization and being cut off from their biological parents, they've just landed in a place of safety for a couple of weeks up until this moment.

I think it's important for us to know as people and people who are in community with queer and trans people, that they don't owe us coming out necessarily. We have this idea that it's like this big secret that's being kept. I think, obviously in this moment, I'm exploring what that feels like in a family dynamic with two different generations and two different thought processes around gender and identity. The parents are so binary in their approach, of course, "This is wrong. This is wrong. It has to be fixed."

I think Hannah and Thomas, we learn shortly after this, when Ben does open up about their identity and it isn't-- they're not just gay, like they don't even know if they're gay as much as they know that their gender is neither male nor female. It exists in that beautiful space of fluidity in between. I think what I wanted to offer is just sort of different people's perspectives of a kid's coming out and how they choose to handle it based on their circumstances, whether you're a teacher, the boyfriend, the sibling/parent-guardian, or the actual parents, and so I think Ben keeps it not to hide that from their family, but just because they're not ready to share it yet.

They're just finding some stability and stasis. They're just meeting some friends. They're just kind of-- they're just getting clothes, and they're understanding what even clothes feel like that aren't picked out by their mom. I think it's like, obviously the parents coming brings this out. I think really it's Kathy again forces Ben to come out in a different way. What we get after this is a beautiful moment of how Hannah and Thomas choose to support Ben as a non-binary person living in their home. You can see the movie and see how that goes, but yes. [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: [chuckles] We're talking about I Wish You All The Best. We'll have more after a quick break. This is All of It.

[music]

Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. A new coming-of-age film follows a non-binary teen who moves in with their sister after being kicked out of their parents' house. It's titled I Wish You All The Best. It will be in theaters this Friday, November 7th. Joining me is director Tommy Dorfman who co-wrote the film and star Corey Fogelmanis. I want to talk about how much joy there is in this film, Corey. We see Ben go through love, friendship, emotional breakdown, teen angst. How did you talk with Tommy about the choices you made as an actor to show this full range of Ben's emotions?

Corey Fogelmanis: It was something that we talked a lot about in terms of just like what this natural progression of opening yourself up to the world is. When you see Ben in the beginning of the movie, there's so much that they're hiding, they're hiding themselves with their sad hoodies, the baggy clothes, and they're not speaking as much, and there is very little joy that you see them having with other people, except for maybe their lovely _dog. As the movie goes on and you see them held by, whether it's a boyfriend or their sister or their art teacher, the shoulders kind of go back and their eyes are off the ground and the clothes, become a little bit more expressive and confident.

One of my favorite parts about the movie is that, yes, this thing at the beginning happens that changes the course of their life forever, but it ends up being this incredible moment of expansion for them because they have people who care about them.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting. To get Ben's physicality, you had to change a little bit over the course of the movie.

Corey Fogelmanis: Yes.

Tommy Dorfman: Mm-hmm.

Corey Fogelmanis: Yes, for sure, and we shot it all out of order, so it was really interesting.

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's interesting. That's hard.

Corey Fogelmanis: Yes.

Tommy Dorfman: Yes.

Corey Fogelmanis: I didn't really realize it until I watched the movie back, and I feel like that was just such a testament to Tommy's conversations with me and helping keep me on track and making sure I was in the right place at the right time. Yes.

Alison Stewart: Tommy, you have an amazing cast in this film. Who was a person that you really wanted to make sure was a part of this film? Not to play favorites, but--

[laughter]

Tommy Dorfman: Listen, there are no favorites. I think everything about this movie and how it came together was really destined to be what it is. Someone asked me how I got this cast, and it was truly, like, we put it together so quickly once we got the financing, that it was a combination of who was most interested and who was available and who was right for the role. We auditioned all of the kids, but then on the more adult side, I wanted to take some bigger swings and see what we could do. When I was writing it, I had Cole in mind, and then I sent the script to Cole, and he agreed to do it because he loved the script and he loved me and he could help get the movie made.

Alison Stewart: Cole Sprouse, by the way.

Tommy Dorfman: Cole Sprouse, yes. Then Corey Fogelmanis, obviously, who's here with us today, came through auditions, and around that same time, looking at Corey and reading Corey, I had just watched Alexandra Daddario in White Lotus, and I thought, "Well, we should try. They kind of look alike." I think I've never seen Alexandra play a sort of maternal character like this who's just dressed in a very normal Southern, kind of comfortable mom way. I'm curious how she would feel about a role like this, and I think that instinct of, like, oh, she wanted to do something different after White Lotus and the work that she'd done before paid off.

Then for Lena Dunham, she was my mentor for a long time. She helped me with writing this film. She gave me a little, like, kind of artist residency to incubate and create in. I'd shadowed her on Catherine Called Birdy as a director and spent a lot of time with her, so she came to mind, but she was living in London, and so we had a different actor who was supposed to play that role, who then ended up going on tour. It just happened to be while we were shooting, Lena was going to be in town for two days. One of those days, she very graciously gave to our film, and we shot all of her scenes in that day.

Alison Stewart: Oh, all in one day? Holy cow.

Tommy Dorfman: All of Ms. Lyon's [crosstalk]-

Corey Fogelmanis: It was a long one. [chuckles]

Tommy Dorfman: -was done in one day. That was so powerful and beautiful because she's such a-- It was a dream-- I mean, for me, it's like, outside of working with Corey and Miles, which I think were the two hardest roles to cast and find and make sure that they were going to be exactly right, obviously. Corey is in every single scene, every single frame, and Miles was such a big discovery for us, to find somebody to play Nathan. Miles Gutierrez-Riley. Having someone like Lena come in, and I was really nervous about directing her because we've known each other for so long and she has directed me before, but it was just such a gift to watch her work.

Also, the movie is quite intense. Corey spent a lot of time alone, has been shooting a lot of stuff on their own. It's like in these moments in the bedroom and other places, and when Lena came in, we really needed this breath of fresh air and somebody who could just break the ice immediately and riff off of the world that we were building together. I think we all needed that levity in those moments, even when it does obviously turn more dramatic in some of those scenes.

Alison Stewart: She's a riot. She is so good in this film.

Tommy Dorfman: She's incredible, yes.

Alison Stewart: What did you learn from her?

Corey Fogelmanis: Oh my gosh, just the spontaneity, like Tommy would let the camera roll for a couple of minutes at the end of takes, and she would just say whatever came to mind, and it was just these film references. She just has this incredible mind, and she's so quick. She's so herself. I feel like I was really drawn to that.

Alison Stewart: This is sort of a first time for both of you. Tommy, for you directing, for you being at the top of the call sheet. What did you expect being at the top of the call sheet, and what was something you didn't expect?

Corey Fogelmanis: I think I expected it to be really exhausting, and it was, but it was perfect because this journey that Ben is on is exhausting in its own way. I think what I didn't expect to happen that did happen was that there was this beautiful blending of what was going on in life as I was filming it and just kind of trusting that where I was at, at any given moment was working as long as it was truthful and honest. Tommy was really great at helping me trust that. Yes.

Alison Stewart: Tommy, what do you now know as a director that maybe you didn't know before?

Tommy Dorfman: Everything.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Tommy Dorfman: I had never even made a short film before this. I had been on the other side of the camera. I had observed directors at work on TV shows and in films. I think the thing that I knew was going to happen, but I didn't know what the experience would be like until I was in it was being pulled in a thousand different directions at once, and a responsibility I have to the hundreds of people who are devoting their time, energy, and creative resources to bringing this story to life. Coming from a theater background, I love collaboration.

I love every single department that's involved. I love the magic that can happen when we're all focused in on one goal. I think what I learned the most is my job as a director, the kind of director I want to be, is someone who can be in service to everyone else's craft, so giving my DP the most support possible to shoot the best version of each scene and the film as a whole; giving my actors the safest, best space for them to work and be comfortable and relaxed and locked in and in the moment; and then also offering a lot of clarity.

We're shooting out of order, which is most common for most projects. It's rare, I think, that you get to shoot anything consecutively, especially on an indie film, so it was my job to really just track all of that for my performers, especially to make sure they knew where they had just come from and where they're going and why we're here in this moment today, especially if we're moving from a scene that's early in the film right into something that's right at the end of the film and just tuning in general. I start shooting my second film tomorrow. I'm in Canada right now as we're having this conversation.

Alison Stewart: Oh, yay.

Tommy Dorfman: I'm really, like, it's been nice and refreshing to have this movie release right at the same time as I start shooting my second film, because I'm reminded of all of the things I think I did well and all of the things I think I could do better.

Alison Stewart: [chuckles] I Wish You All The Best opens in theaters next Friday, November 7th. I've been speaking with director Tommy Dorfman and Corey Fogelmanis. I hope you'll both come back on your next projects. Thank you for being with us.

Tommy Dorfman: We will.

Corey Fogelmanis: Thank you.

Tommy Dorfman: Thank you so much. Have a good day.