[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar, in for Alison Stewart, and summer is in full swing. That could mean spending time with friends, it could mean taking a trip, or maybe it means doing both of those things simultaneously. Traveling with friends, the road trip with your best bud, camping with your crew from college, or if you really want to take a relationship from 00 to 60, visiting a new country with someone you met just a few months ago. It is great until there's conflict.

You want to go to a museum, but your friend wants to hike. You want to go out late at night, but your other friends wake up at dawn and you try to compromise on how fancy the restaurants are that you visit, but no one ends up with what they really want. By the time you get back, you don't want to talk to the person, except you're both in the same softball league and group chats. How can you travel with friends and still be friends after? Here to help us navigate it all is a friend of our show, Nick Leighton. Nick is co-host and producer of the podcast, Were You Raised By Wolves? Hey, Nick.

Nick Leighton: Hey, thanks for having me back. The only thing better than being invited somewhere is being invited back. Really, thank you. This is a treat.

Kousha Navidar: [chuckles] It's a treat for us, too. Listeners, it would be a treat to hear from you. Do you have any tips for how to travel with friends without needing to break up after? Have you had any travel experiences with friends that just didn't go very well? What happened? Or what would you have done differently? Or is there something you've done in the past that has made a trip with friends successful? Give us a call, send us a text. The number is 212-433-9692, that's 212-433-WNYC. Or you can hit us up on our socials. We're on Insta, we're on X. We're @AllOfItWNYC. Nick, do you travel with your friends a lot?

Nick Leighton: Yes. Caveat*. I love a good solo trip. I love traveling by myself because sometimes you don't want to compromise on a trip. Yes, I actually was recently in Europe. Some friends joined me for part of the trip. A lot of good boundary setting, a lot of good expectations setting, a lot of good communication, so it was totally fine. I understand that is the exception, not the rule a lot of times.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. In one episode of your podcast, you had a segment way back about how to travel with coworkers, and it made me wonder, is this general topic, how to travel with people in your life? Is that something you get asked about a lot?

Nick Leighton: Oh my goodness, yes. Especially this time of year when a lot of people are taking trips and with friends. Yes, it seems like a good idea, but I think one thing we need to acknowledge is that good friends are not always good travel friends. Just because we enjoy hanging out with them in the city, it doesn't mean they're actually a great fit for us for longer periods of time. It doesn't mean that they're not good people. It just means our styles are a little different. I think we want to try to figure that out before we end up in Tokyo together.

Kousha Navidar: It seems like this friction between friends is so common. I mean, you yourself said the trip that you just took was, what would you say, an exception, not the norm, something like that?

Nick Leighton: For sure.

Kousha Navidar: Why do you think it is so common to have this kind of friction?

Nick Leighton: Well, I think we don't always actually know about ourselves what we're capable of enduring until we kind of experience it. I think a lot of people are unrealistic about how they travel. Like, how do they handle jet lag? How do they handle low blood sugar? How do they handle being stressed out about missing a train? Then how do you deal with the other people on your trip as we're all experiencing these problems? Different budgets, we often talk about, "Oh, you should set a budget," so they get paid, but that's actually not enough.

It's how do you set a budget for the things you care about. Like, I could afford an expensive 10-course Degas station menu on vacation, but I don't want to spend the money on that. That's not where I want to spend my money. It's not enough to talk about budgets. We have to talk about priorities. There just has to be a lot of getting on the same page before we depart.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we're talking about how to travel with friends and still stay friends. We're here with Nick Leighton, who's the co-host and producer of Were You Raised By Wolves? the podcast. If you're listening right now and you have a story about a time that you went on a trip with a friend or friends and it just didn't work out and you have some thoughts about what you would have done differently or what you do now, give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692, that's 212-433-WNYC.

If you have been on a successful trip and you have some thoughts as to why, we'd be here for that too. 212-433-9692. I see some texts coming in. One says, "My recommendation to anyone traveling with friends is meet everyone first. I went on a trip with a friend and her friend who I had never met. I assumed because my friend was awesome, her friend would be equally awesome. I was wrong." Nick, this kind of goes back to what you were saying about how make sure you know who you're traveling with.

Nick Leighton: Yes. I mean, that's bonkers. I mean, what a bonkers thing. I would not make the assumption. That assumption, that a friend of my friend is also going to be my friend. I don't know. Yes, I think that's great advice. Meet these people first. I think before we get there, let's take a day trip. Before we do anything overnight, let's do a day trip because that's going to tell you a lot about someone's travel style. Let's go to the Dia and Beacon and let's see. Did you show up for the train on time? How did the day go?

Then we could see, okay, maybe we'll then extend that to a weekend. Then we'll expand that to a domestic trip. Yes, to travel with somebody you've never met, that's risky.

Kousha Navidar: That is risky. Here's another text. "You have to spend time apart on trips, rooms, different meals. You have to." This, I think, will lead in nicely with our first caller that we've got Ellie from Morristown, New Jersey. Hey, Ellie. Welcome to the show.

Ellie: Hi. Thanks for taking my call.

Kousha Navidar: Sure.

Ellie: Yes, my thought is exactly what the text said, which is make sure that you have enough time alone that it's okay to go on separate excursions, maybe just meet up for dinner. I did this when I traveled with friends before I was married. I did it after when I was married and had kids. We often traveled with friends and still do, and just found that the secret was that it was okay for people to go off and do things on their own and then you have your together time as well.

Kousha Navidar: Ellie, was it hard for you to navigate those conversations? Did you explicitly say, "I need alone time"? Or was it something that was just kind of tacitly agreed to?

Ellie: I think the time that was the hardest, actually, was I was on a cruise with my college friends and they all wanted to go on one excursion. I was like, "Yes, I'm not doing that." They felt bad that I wanted to go and do something else. I assured them that I felt really comfortable to do that on my own and that we didn't all have to do everything altogether. I do think it's something that's worth a conversation at the start of the vacation that maybe during the day, we do things on our own.

If not everybody has the same interests, it's okay for people to explore the things that are most interesting to them, and then we'll meet up at night for dinner.

Kousha Navidar: Ellie, thank you so much for that call. I'm going to pause you there because I want to turn it back to Nick. What do you think about the role of alone time?

Nick Leighton: Oh my goodness, the best. I think that is key, and I don't think we need to apologize for it. I think everybody also wants it, too. I think everyone's on the same page. I think you can just say it like, "Hey, when I travel, I like to have sort of my days free, but then I like to reconnect in the evenings for many of the nights. Is that how you also like to travel?" Then chances are, they'll say yes.

Kousha Navidar: Is that something that you suggest planning into the itinerary, like, "Monday at 4:00 PM, we will have our alone time"? Or does just that kind of depend by person's preference?

Nick Leighton: I mean, my style of travel is not, "It's Tuesday, it must be Rome." I like a little more flexibility. I think it's important just to have sort of the outline, the outline of understanding, which is days free or maybe afternoon's free, or we'll have our alone time built in, but then definitely, we'll always have dinner together kind of idea. I think just communicate it at the front before we go anywhere. Like, "Oh, this is how I like to travel. This is what I need on my vacation. Is that also what you need? Are we on the same page about this?"

Kousha Navidar: Yes. Stay on alone time for a second. What if alone time isn't possible? For whatever reason, you're going to be at the hip for the whole trip. How do you get through those difficult moments?

Nick Leighton: I can actually think of a trip I actually took with a good friend, where it was sort of required that everybody was all together the entire time. Actually, this was to North Korea, so we were actually had a sort of-- it was very supervised, and you just go with it. You just like, that's the nature of this trip. That is the nature of this holiday. That's just the style of trip this is going to be. It's not going to be the beach side, all inclusive. Bring me another cocktail kind of trip. That's just a different flavor of vacation. It'll be over at some point.

Kousha Navidar: There's this text that we just got in that kind of rolls with it. Also, North Korea. At some point, we have to have you back on just to talk about that trip. I'd be very interested to hear about that. To your point about, you just got to roll with it. Here's the text that says, "Borrow from improv, and yes, and the heck out of the trip. Roll with it. Have fun. The time you spend together is more important than any museum, and cut back on the drinking. You can't be out all night and have a good day tomorrow. People get cranky real quick."

Thank you for that text. A lot of suggestions in there. I'd love to go to Brigid in Easton, Connecticut. Hey, Bridget. Welcome to the show.

Bridget: Hi, thanks. I was explaining to the interviewer I just got back from a two-week-plus trip to Tokyo with my cousin. We had not traveled before, and I found, we found that having a very in-depth conversation well ahead of time with ruthless, but kind honesty made all the difference. I snore. I'm a vegetarian. She doesn't snore, but she stays up late. She's a carnivore. You just have to get all this stuff out in the air and then have the understanding that we'll adjust. If I had to get a separate room, I was going to get a separate room.

I wasn't going to watch a cow being slaughtered, things like that, but she didn't want to watch that either, so it avoided it. It can work if you are basically on-- you just let it out. I mean, I need a nap sometimes. Whatever your foibles are, it really contributes to an overall great experience. We split all the bills. We didn't get hung up on money. We went with an attitude of let's just have fun, but we did have that grounding of knowing each other's boundaries. It really helped me, who was a very stressed person about, like, I really need some time.

Kousha Navidar: Brigid, thank you so much for that call. It brings up an interesting point here, Nick. I mean, what I heard from Brigid was this idea that she knows herself really well. She knew what to talk about with her friend in advance of actually going on the trip. Can you give any advice about the kinds of questions you should be asking yourself when you think about having that conversation?

Nick Leighton: Know thyself. Oh, now, we're getting philosophical.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely.

Nick Leighton: I think you do need to know yourself and not everybody does. You do discover it at some point, hopefully not mid-trip. Yes, I think we all have a good sense of like, "Are we morning people? Are we evening people? Also, what's the goal of this trip? What's the point?" Like, "Why are we going on this vacation at all? Is it for relaxation? Is it a you pray love thing? Is it to see the museums?" Like, "What's the theme? What's the point?" I think we do want to know how we like to travel.

I think we don't want to go on vacations that aren't that because then we're probably not going to have a good time. I think it's okay to be honest with yourself of the people around you about like, "What is it that you do need to have a nice time?" If somebody has a very different idea, then the question is, "Do I compromise or can I come to some common ground on this? Or maybe we shouldn't have this trip together."

Kousha Navidar: What happens then? Let's say that you realize, "Okay, I don't want to see a cow being slaughtered. My friend really does, and I just don't want to be on this trip anymore with them. We haven't gone on it yet." Any tips for how to tactfully say no, thank you?

Nick Leighton: In etiquette world, we would say use a very polite yet direct conversation. Just rip the band-aid off. We want to use a tone that's nonjudgmental, value neutral, and it's just about, "Hey, actually, I think that maybe we're not on the same page about this trip and I think maybe it's best that we actually don't move forward." We just leave it there.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we're talking with Nick Leighton, the co-host and producer of Were You Raised By Wolves? We're talking about how to travel with friends and still stay friends after the trip because friction seems to be something that can easily creep into your travel plans. If you have some advice or a story, we've heard some great stories from folks about times on trips when things just didn't go well, give us a call or send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. We've got Theresa in Astoria. Hi, Theresa. Welcome to the show.

Theresa: Hi, great subject. I was just talking to a friend about this recently. When I was married, we had another couple friends who we were very good friends and like-minded. We decided to go to Spain together. Long before the trip, we had a sit-down. We wanted to make sure that we were all clear on what we would and wouldn't do together. The main thing being that we don't have to be joined at the hip the whole time. There were certain things that we laid out in advance. There were sites and attractions that we all wanted to do.

Certain museums, a hiking trip, et cetera. We agreed to do those together and then also have free time to go our own way. We never felt guilty to have to have every dinner together. We would decide on a daily basis, we usually have breakfast together, and we'd say, "Great. After the museum, let's split up and we'll meet you later for dinner." Or maybe we just wanted a romantic dinner alone. It's all doable, but you have to work it out well in advance and manage expectations in advance that there's no awkwardness when you're on the ground.

Kousha Navidar: Yes. Theresa, thank you so much for that call. One big point of awkwardness can be money. Nick, I'd love to talk about that for a little, but can be a sticking point. What kinds of conversations should you be having around money when you're planning a trip?

Nick Leighton: Yes, I think that's the biggest issue. At the end of the day, I think if you were going to stop talking to somebody over a trip, money was probably related. I think we want to make sure we're on the same page in terms of budgets and our priorities. Are we prepared to spend to go see the Kabuki theater in Tokyo? Are we prepared to have that expensive meal out? Even if we can afford it, are we willing to spend the money? We definitely want to have that conversation. Then it's about keeping track.

Nobody wants to feel taken advantage of. No one wants to feel like they're not carrying their own weight financially. There does need to be some conversation or plan for, like, how are we going to be splitting and keeping track of all of these shared expenses? One app I like to use, it's called Splitwise. It's very easy to use, so I kind of recommend that one. You just kind of put in what everybody owes. It actually can handle multiple currencies. If you're in euros, it can handle this.

Then you could just see, "Oh, this is the running tally." I think that's kind of a good way to do it because everybody should just pay their own way.

Kousha Navidar: Is that what you did on your trip to Europe?

Nick Leighton: On that trip, we actually kind of just took turns. Like, "Oh, you get this dinner, I'll get this dinner." My attitude with my friends is there's in the grand accounting ledger of my life with my friends, it'll balance out at some point. I'm not too concerned about keeping track of each individual event. You have to know yourself and your friends, but the idea is fairness. Nobody wants to feel like they're kind of being taken advantage of financially.

Kousha Navidar: What if your friend makes a lot more or a lot less money than you do? How do you navigate that? I imagine that can be really awkward.

Nick Leighton: Well, I mean, if they ordered a pasta dish that costs whatever it costs, just because they make more money doesn't mean they should pay for your meal, right?

Kousha Navidar: Sure.

Nick Leighton: However much somebody's net worth is, does it really matter in terms of how much they're spending on this trip? If they have very expensive taste and they're like, "Oh, we must go to the [unintelligible 00:17:25] for a spa day-

Kousha Navidar: Yes, that's more of what I'm talking about there.

Nick Leighton: -and you must come with me." "Well, yes, unfortunately, that's not in my budget for this trip, but I'll see you for dinner."

Kousha Navidar: Got it. Allowing that space you think is the key. I think it kind of goes back to the point that you were making before about, like, what are you willing to compromise about it? Do you have to be sucked at the hip the whole time? Do you feel like you need to?

Nick Leighton: No, absolutely not. And that text about yes-and-ing, I think it's nice to have a can-do spirit, but the idea that we have to accommodate everybody on the trip, I don't know if we need to do that. I do think it's okay to set some boundaries, which could be more of a no, but rather than a yes-and. I like the spirit, though. Yes, I don't think we need to be pushovers.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to Alison in Manhattan. Hey, Alison. Welcome to the show.

Alison: Hi. I love this show, and I was laughing pretty hysterically with the taking your person that you don't know to Dia Beacon because this is what happened to me exactly. I was traveling this past winter to Germany with a good friend, and we got along okay until the other friend got introduced. There was something that happened with a flight and an airline that was like a Mickey Mouse airline, and then I ended up missing a flight. Anyway, it was a big story and I totally just did not get along with a friend.

It put a big wrench in the whole thing, and it was hard for me to explain. Also, the people pleasing I had mentioned to the screener, I'm a people pleaser. I kind of go with the flow when I travel. I'm a little bohemian. And these people, sometimes, I was traveling with German people who were very kind of controlling. Not in a nasty way, but the controlling. They have to buy the ticket. They have to get to the train station half an hour before time. That's another, I guess, situation. I don't know.

Kousha Navidar: Well, Alison, we really appreciate the call because you're bringing up a point about stuff going wrong during the trip. Nick, for you, I guess I would ask, when conflict does come up during a trip and you're not feeling great, what are the best steps to take?

Nick Leighton: I think we just want to be adults. I think we got to just be polite but direct with people, like, "Oh, this is not working for me, and here's what I need to have happen. Is that possible?" It's kind of the vibe. I don't know. If we're on a trip with some Germans and they want to get to the train station early, I don't know what that conversation is other than, I guess I'll see you at the platform five minutes before the train. If it's not really going well and we can't just tough it out and just sort of bite our tongue, then yes, polite, yet direct.

I think that's sort of the way to go if we think that's going to be successful and not sort of make things worse. You kind of have to read the room and see is having a bit of a direct conversation, how will that be received? If it's not going to be received well, then yes, you just tough it out and I think you learn your lesson. Never travel with those people again. It's fine to have one bad vacation with somebody. It's totally your fault if it happens twice.

Kousha Navidar: There's a text here that I think might refer to that a little bit. It says, "Went on a cross country move with a longtime gal friend, 37-year friend, it did not work out. I should have discussed what I wanted from her to support me since I was going through a hard time. I would have made it clear it wasn't an all-night party since we had to drive all day. She left me in the middle of the trip to drive the van alone." I'm sorry to hear that you had that experience. Nick, I guess you would say, don't go on a second trip with that friend.

Nick Leighton: Yes, I think we learned something about our relationship, and so, yes, let's act accordingly moving forward.

Kousha Navidar: Well, what about when you get home and you drop your suitcase and you're alone? Are there considerations or things we should be thinking about when it comes to our friends? Because the trip kind of lives beyond the trip itself, right? Like, what if you're feeling hurt, what do you do with that feeling after you get home?

Nick Leighton: Well, the first thing to do when you get home is settle your debts. Don't let anybody owe anybody money. Sell the debts immediately because that's so rude to make people chase after money. Make sure all the accounting is clean. Yes, if something happened on that trip and everybody's a little hurt about it, let the dust settle. Give it a beat. I think if these are important relationships that you want to maintain, then yes, I think you want to have some conversation about it with the person about what happened, how it made you feel, and what might be done differently in the future.

Sometimes, though, you're like, "I'm good with that relationship. That was enough for me. These are now acquaintances, and I'll be polite when I see them, but I'm not going to make an effort to see them." Then yes, you could just leave it there.

Kousha Navidar: I got to ask, has that ever happened to you?

Nick Leighton: Oh, I definitely move a lot of people into the acquaintance category. Sure. All the time. For sure. I actually use a metaphor called my theater metaphor, where we have my close friends on stage, we have people in the front row, people back in the orchestra, up in the balcony, and I'm reseating people in my life all the time.

Kousha Navidar: [chuckles]

Nick Leighton: Not people who are maybe front-row people get moved to the balcony. You do something, and you were a balcony person, you might get moved to the lobby. I definitely move people in my personal metaphorical theater all the time.

Kousha Navidar: I love that metaphor. I'm looking at the clock. We've got just less than a minute left, but I got to ask. We've been talking a lot about the dangers and how to handle conflict. If you're on a trip with friends, of course, it seems like a gamble. Do you think it's worth it?

Nick Leighton: Oh, sure, yes. I mean, like the friend I went to North Korea with, nothing deepens a friendship being somewhere like that. These trips, they're memory building and they're fun, and who wouldn't want to share something great with the people that you're friends with? Like, who wouldn't? Like, of course, it's worth it. Experiencing the world and new things, who wouldn't want to have those shared experiences? Yes, we've talked a lot about the horror stories, and everything goes wrong today, but these are all easily avoidable, and this is not a reason to not get out there.

I think everybody should find the people who are on the same page and give it a go.

Kousha Navidar: We've been talking to Nick Leighton, the co-host and producer of the podcast, Were You Raised By Wolves? Nick, I wish you all the best in your summer travels and to everyone listening. Nick, thanks for hanging out with us.

Nick Leighton: Thanks so much. This was a treat.

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