Alison Stewart: This is All of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in SoHo. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here. On today's show, filmmaker Suzannah Herbert is here to talk about her documentary Natchez. It's about how the Mississippi city is reckoning with its vision of the past. We'll also talk to lawyer and author Elliot Williams about his new book, Five Bullets, the story of Bernie Goetz, New York's explosive '80s, and the subway vigilante trial that divided the nation. We'll talk about a new exhibit at Poster House that looks at how the Italian dictator Mussolini used art and propaganda to gain power. That's our plan. Let's get this started with blended families.

More than a third of US families are blended, and stepparenthood is a role that comes with it. From discipline disagreements to loyalty confusion, there are unique challenges that can create tension even when everyone has the best intentions. Psychologist Dr. Patricia Papernow has spent decades studying stepfamilies and what actually helps them succeed. She's the author of three books, including Surviving and Thriving in Stepfamily Relationships and The Stepfamily Handbook. Dr. Patricia Papernow joins me. Welcome, doctor.

Dr. Patricia Papernow: Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we want to hear from you. Are you part of a blended family? Are you a stepparent, a stepchild, or co-parenting, trying to make it all work? What's been perhaps the challenging part of stepparenthood? Is it discipline, boundaries, loyalty, finding your role? What surprised you along the way? Our phone lines are wide open. The number is 212-433-9692. 212-433-WNYC. We'd like you to join this conversation. You can also reach out to us on social at @AllOfItWNYC. What questions, doctor, should someone ask oneself if they find themselves getting into a serious relationship with a partner who has little kids, or tweens, or young adults?

Dr. Patricia Papernow: I think the first thing is to educate yourself. It turns out that stepfamilies are fundamentally different from first-time families. Unfortunately, there's a lot of rather wretched stuff out there that's not very helpful. There's not a lot that's available that's evidence-based, my couple of books are two of them. The good news is we know what works. The bad news is that the information is mostly siloed among researchers. I'm somewhere between passionate and desperate to put this information into the hands of people who can use it, and I'm really glad to be here.

Alison Stewart: How can someone tell if their partner is ready to be involved with kids, with their kids?

Dr. Patricia Papernow: I think the first thing to know is that in a stepfamily, the stepparent does not enter as an equal. It's not possible. In a first-time family, the adult couple has some time together before kids arrive. Kids arrive usually only one at a time. Really important for our story, they arrive hardwired to attach to both of their parents and vice versa. In a stepfamily, what you've got is a parent and a child who've got that shared attachment. They've got the experience of loving and being loved. They have shared understandings about what's a mess and what's an okay cost for a pair of sneakers, and stepparents enter as outsiders to all of that. What we know is that positive stepparent-stepchild relationships are really important for kids, really important, but parents are the secure base.

When a kid needs something, they're going to come in and talk to mom or dad. In a first-time family, that would include both mom and dad. In a second-time family, the parent has to turn towards their child and away from their stepparent partner. Part of what you need to know as a stepparent is: Can you bear this? It's not going to probably change a lot. It will probably get better over time. It will not get better when you first move in together. It'll probably get worse because these changes are huge for kids. To really sort out, "Am I okay being able sometimes to turn away, go for a bike ride, go be with my Aunt Grace, who adores me, take a knitting class while my partner turns toward their child?" When I need attention, "Am I able to reach rather than clobber?"

Being an outsider, we're not wired for this. We're neurobiologically wired to expect the people close to us to turn towards us. When our partner turns away, it's dysregulating. Really easy to say, "Why did you do that? How could you be so selfish? Your kids are really self-centered," et cetera. That's not going to get you a hug. You'd best better ask later. It turns out, out of kids' eyesight, "Could I have a hug? That was hard for me." Your partner probably won't get it because they're the stuck insider. You're the stuck outsider. They're totally different experiences.

Alison Stewart: When you're thinking about introducing your child to a partner, a partner who's going to be a part of a family, part of a blended family, what are some of the best common practices?

Dr. Patricia Papernow: Take it slow. The adults are excited. You are eager to move forward. Study after study after study finds that the adults move way too fast for the kids. Take it real slow and give kids lots of warning. Happy surprise is: "We're getting a new puppy." It is not a happy surprise that Jane stayed over last night, and she's here. It is not a happy surprise that we're getting married next month. Kids need a lot, a lot of warning for changes. "Jane is coming over for dinner on Wednesday night. She's going to stay for dinner and go home." On Tuesday night, you remind them, "Jane's coming over tomorrow night." If you decide Jane is moving in, you're going to give lots of warning. "Jane's moving in in four months. That's going to make some changes. Let's talk about what's not going to change."

"You'll always be my kids. Your mom will always be your mom. She will not replace your mom." That is a really important message for kids. It's a really important message for stepparents, and it's a very important message to reassure your kid's other parent because when an ex-partner recouples, it's very scary, especially for moms. We have this motherhood mandate that you can only be one mom, and you have to be the best. In stepfamilies, kids have two female figures. One is mom, and one is stepmom. They're often quite different, and there needs to be room for both.

Alison Stewart: This is a bigger picture question, and maybe it's a question for people to think about themselves, but as an adult, can a person deal with being sort of the number two in the relationship because the kid's always going to be number one?

Dr. Patricia Papernow: I think a couple of things. One is: I have this thing I call old bruises. This is bumpy. Close relationships are bumpy. You get disappointed. Your partner does not get exactly what you were thinking, and they make a boo-boo. There are lots more bumps in a stepfamily, and being an outsider is a big bump. If there's already a bruise there, when you get bumped in that arm, it's going to be a lot more upsetting. If you were the outsider in your family of origin, it's going to be a lot harder. I was actually the stuck insider in my family of origin.

I was the caretaker to everybody in a high-conflict family, and I was fine as a stepparent. What was hard for me was when I recoupled, and I was torn between taking care of my new partner, who needed attention, and taking care of my kid, and that was more anxious for me. It depends partly on what your old bruise was. Better if you don't have an old bruise in the wrong place.

Alison Stewart: I'm joined by psychologist Dr. Patricia Papernow, a leading expert on blended families. She's here to explain why stepparenthood can be challenging and what helps families thrive. Listeners, we want to hear from you. Are you part of a blended family? Are you a stepparent, a stepchild, a co-parent? You're just trying to make it work somehow. What's been the hardest part of navigating stepparenthood? Is it discipline? Is it boundaries? Finding your role? What surprised you along the way? Our number is 212-433-9692. 212-433-WNYC.

You can call us up, or you can send us a text at that number. Here's a good question for you, doctor. This text says, "My parents separated when my sister and I were both over 18 and no longer living at home. Both my parents remarried people with younger children and essentially became absorbed by those families. I feel a bit nomadic and without a core family now, but as an adult, I'm not sure how to bring it up with my parents."

Dr. Patricia Papernow: That is so often the experience. That is because parent-child relationships are forever. Here's the other thing. Parent-child relationships, close, warm ones, are really important for kids' wellbeing in stepfamilies, including for young adults and adult stepchildren. Study after study after study finds that when parents recouple, kids lose time and attention. Partly, adults in love are just as bonkers as teenagers are. Also, here you're having to share with younger children who are absorbing. The question is how to bring it up, and can you bring it up without clobbering?

That's part of the skill. "Gee, Dad, I'm so glad you have a new family. I'm glad you seem really happy." Adults really want to know their kids are happy for them, even when they're usually not. It may help to start that way. "I'm really happy for you. I'm missing you. I may be an adult. It turns out you're still really important to me. Could we spend more time together? Could we please go out to dinner together sometimes? Could we take walks together?"

Alison Stewart: That's such a lovely invitation and also explains a lot about how you're feeling.

Dr. Patricia Papernow: Exactly. Without clobbering and without withdrawing. It takes a lot of muscle, it takes a lot of skill to navigate in these families. By the way, struggling stepfamilies and successful stepfamilies face the same challenges. Successful stepfamilies, research after research after research, have better skills, and you can see why you need them.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Tony, who's calling in. Tony's calling from Manhattan. Hi, Tony. Thanks for making the time to call All of It.

Tony: Hi, how are you? It's a great, fascinating subject. I've run the gamut. My parents were divorced when I was one. Two more different people on the planet should have never been brought together to make me, but they made me. My father remarried when I was four. I have four siblings. I never wanted to be a divorced parent. That was one of my goals: never to be divorced. Unfortunately, that did not work out the way I anticipated it. My daughters are very similar to me personality-wise, but they developed this kind of irrational anger towards me. I kept kind of--

[sound cut]

Alison Stewart: Oh, no, we lost Tony.

Dr. Patricia Papernow: We lost him.

Alison Stewart: He was talking about anger towards him. Do you have any thoughts about what to do when the anger is coming towards you?

Dr. Patricia Papernow: Here's where skills really matter. Get yourself really grounded. Try to get as calm and centered as you can, and know that what will help the most is if you can slow down and try to understand where your girls are coming from. "Help me understand what you're angry at." When your child says something even outrageous, you do not say, "But." You will feel pulled to say, "But." That won't help. You say, "Gee, what I do understand--" Find what you do understand. "I understand that you felt that when I left, I did a polka. I stepped on your toes."

Help me understand. You're going to look for what you do understand and what your daughters are saying. You're going to tell them what you do understand, and you're not going to add "but." That's hard. It's going to take some muscle, but that's your best pathway to repair.

Alison Stewart: This text says, "Thank you, Dr. Papernow. You had me on the verge of tears from recognition already. Two related questions. How does your guidance vary with adult children and when the other parent is recently deceased?"

Dr. Patricia Papernow: Let's start with adult children. Whether the kids are grown-ups or little kids. Really, really important: Parents retain the limit-setting role. Successful stepparents focus on, I call it connection, not correction. Getting to know your stepkids, being interested in them, playing with them, doing one-to-one things with them, whether your stepkids are adults or little kids. That's hard for stepparents because parents have that attachment. Kids' behavior is not as upsetting to parents as it is to stepparents. Stepparents all over the world want more limits and boundaries. Parents want more love and understanding. This is hard.

Alison Stewart: Interesting.

Dr. Patricia Papernow: Probably nothing more important than you cannot step into limit setting. You can skillfully say, "Gee, that was hard for me. I'd love it if you'd say hello." You cannot say, "You will say hello and be respectful to me." Whether the kids are little or big, take time to get to know them. If you're the woman and your partner is a male, dads lose contact with their kids. Encourage your partner to spend one-to-one time with his kids. During that time, you go off, you spend one-to-one time with your stepkids. When a parent has died, it's still the same structure.

The belief and the wish often is that the stepparents could step in and replace the deceased parent when the kids are really, really young, like two, three, sometimes that works. Although it comes back to bite you when the kids are teens. Mostly, kids do not want a replacement. Parent-child relationships are forever. What kids need is the adults to support their ongoing connection with that parent. Having photos around, talking about them, knowing that at birthdays and holidays and the year anniversary of the parent's death, that parent is going to be there.

Talk about being the outsider and sharing with another. That deceased parent needs to become part of the family. If you can do that, kids will do okay. The other thing to know is something that's called the myth of closure. This is Pauline Boss's work. Kids do not come to an end of grieving. That hole stays there, and you support kids best by accompanying them. Having photos, having a place for special things. There's a thing, a Jewish tradition called a Yahrzeit candle. Yahrzeit. It's a little juice glass-sized white candle. It burns for 24 hours on the anniversary of the parents' death.

It's incredibly comforting. It's all about remembering, helping kids do that on birthdays. "How did your mom celebrate birthday? At a wedding, I know you would've wanted your dad with you. How would you like to have him with you?" For kids, sometimes sharing with a parent's new partner is harder because they've already lost somebody.

Alison Stewart: I'm joined by psychologist Dr. Patricia Papernow. She's a leading expert on blended families. We're here to explain why stepparenthood is challenging and what can help those families thrive. We'll have more of your questions after the break. This is All of It.

[MUSIC - Hannibal Haynes: All Of It Theme Song]

You're listening to All of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is psychologist Dr. Patricia Papernow, a leading expert on blended families. She's here to help us figure out why stepparenthood is challenging and what can help those families thrive. Listeners, we'd like to hear from you. Let's talk to Charles from Charlottesville, Virginia. Hi Charles. Thanks for calling All of It. Tell us a little bit about your family.

Charles: Hi. I've been involved in two blended families in my life. The first one was an Arabic woman and her two Arabic children. The second one, my current wife and my stepchild. She is a Greek background, but is very Americanized, you might say. Anyway, I would just point out culture can add a real interesting component if you're trying to be a stepfather or a stepmother to the other side of your family. In any event, my personal opinion, and I'd be interested to hear what your guest thinks. From my experience, the best thing for the new parent to do is I think to stay clear of making or trying to formulate discipline, things like that.

Whatever directions or whatever the child needs to follow in the family, I think, should be left to the natural parent. You should be a really strong ally and supportive. I think getting directly involved can create problems. For example, if my son comes to me and says, "Dad, I want to do this," and it's not a clear thing to me, then I'll say, "Well, look, we're going to wait till your mom gets home and we can talk about it together." I find that deference is oftentimes the best form of valor, so to speak. I appreciate you taking the call.

Dr. Patricia Papernow: We have 50 studies and counting, and you figured it out on your own, which is the parent needs to maintain the limit-setting role. You're the supporter, and it's a very important role. It turns out, by the way, there's a wide range of positive stepparent roles, and only a minority are parent-like. Mostly, it's some variation of warm adult friend. Supporter, helping with homework and school, being like an uncle, like an aunt. Those are very important roles for kids. I think something like 12%. It's a smaller percentage of stepparents who become like parents.

Important to know. You've got it, the caller who just called. You've got it. You can have a very important role without being the limit setter. You've got it exactly.

Alison Stewart: I was very interested in what he said about cultural issues.

Dr. Patricia Papernow: Very important.

Alison Stewart: I saw your ears perk up. What did that tell you?

Dr. Patricia Papernow: First of all, in a first-time family, the couple together starts developing a culture. Over time, kids come in one by one by one. The family develops us together, a sense of how we do things. In a stepfamily, you have a parent and child or children who've got their own set of how we do things, and a stepparent with or without his or her kids. That's got their own set of how we do things. That difference is there. Now add that the likelihood that there are going to be more different cultures, more different class, more different religion in a stepcouple is higher than in a first-time family.

You've got a double whammy of differences. We're not so good at differences in this culture right now. It's so important to see if you can stay curious, but what happens is there are these spikes of, "How could you put white lights on the Christmas tree?" [laughs] Christmas trees have colored lights. That's normal. It's called learning by goofing. "Oh, there's another learning by goofing. Tell me about Christmas lights in your family," because these stories have to be told in stepfamily.

Alison Stewart: Your point is this, as an adult, to say, "I goofed. Tell me more."

Dr. Patricia Papernow: It's a kind of a goof between us that we didn't know about.

Alison Stewart: Got you.

Dr. Patricia Papernow: We have to learn by, and oftentimes it wouldn't have occurred to that pair to talk about what color lights on the tree. White lights. Red color lights. It doesn't even have language.

Alison Stewart: Let me read this text because it gets to my next question. This says, "I know a family where the stepmom forces the kids to call her mom and refer to her mother by her first name." I know where you're standing in this. "This seems cruel and pathologically narcissistic to me. Am I overreacting? Can I help? Should I mind my own business? These kids are teenagers, but this has been the situation for several years."

Dr. Patricia Papernow: I'm so glad you asked that question because I noticed the caller before calls his stepson, his son, and I don't know if he was quite young. I don't know where the father is.

Alison Stewart: What do you think about these ideas of like, "I'm a bonus parent," or should it be a descriptor was like "my mom's husband," or even calling someone by their first name? How do you decide?

Dr. Patricia Papernow: I believe naming needs to be up to kids. This whole thing is not up to kids. This whole thing is wonderful for the adults. It's their choice, not the kids' choice. The stepparent maybe wanted to be called Mom or Dad. It may feel respectful. That's true in some cultures. It may be, "I wash their clothes and swept them to school and back, so that's the least they can do for me." It may be, "I feel close to this kid, I'd like them to call me Mom or Dad." The trouble is, kids have another mom or dad, dead or alive. When you ask to be called Mom or Dad as a stepparent, you are putting children in a loyalty bind. Naming is one way you can intensify that loyalty bind or soften it. If respect is important, Mr. Bob, Ms. Jane, get creative and find something that works for you that does not compete. Kamala Harris's stepdaughter calls her Momala.

Alison Stewart: They found the right thing.

Dr. Patricia Papernow: In one of my families, there's Daddy and Daddy Dan, where the kids were very young. Mostly, kids call their stepparents by their first name.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Tom from Manhattan. Hi Tom. Thanks for calling All of It.

Tom: Hi. I'm calling to report on a blended family that's over 40 years old now. The separation happened when my girls were six and nine. The next year, my present wife came into the picture. For some reason or another, and those reasons probably have to do with almost completely her. She was able to forge a relationship that couldn't really be called stepmom. She was called stepmother, but couldn't really be called stepmother because she was the other half of motherhood for these kids. That is, she provided a view of what it meant to be a woman that was complementary, but very, very different from their biological mother.

Although there was the usual divorce hostility that happened in the first five years or so, and stuff to be worked out as it all went on, the family managed to merge with a tremendous amount of love and has always been that way, teenagehood and all that stuff. Now there's six grandchildren and all of the siblings. My second wife and I had another child, so there was a stepsibling, and they all get along wonderfully and see each other all the time.

Alison Stewart: It sounds like such a beautiful family. Thank you for calling us. This says, "Question regarding stepfamilies. Can you please address older couples, 60s plus, becoming stepparents to 20-something? How can this be as successful as possible?"

Dr. Patricia Papernow: The rate of divorce in the United States is at a 50-year low, except over 55, where it doubled in the last few decades and continues to rise over age 65. The likelihood that you are going to be a what I call "Gray Recoupler" is that's not unusual. Same thing. Do not compete with the child's other parent. It turns out that it is not stepfamily or single-parent family that's worse for kids, or divorce. It's conflict. It's feeling I have to choose. It's even feeling tension between the people, the adults in my life. Leave discipline to your partner.

Talk to your partner about it, but try to be kind, and get to know your stepkids. "What's this been like for you? This is a big change." The gray divorce is often very hard for kids. "What was it like for you? You're a baseball player. Tell me about playing baseball." Get to know them. Same thing.

Alison Stewart: This is a tough issue. "The woman had a child, and she found out my stepchild acted out from resentment toward her younger sibling, who worshiped her. I found that to be very hurtful." What do you do when the children don't necessarily get along?

Dr. Patricia Papernow: It's not unusual. We've forced them together. The first thing to know is stepsiblings are either usually closer or more distant than biological siblings. Really important to be protective. Really important, if there's a much older sibling, stepsibling, that child gets enough attention because often the younger kids get more attention, especially if there's a new "ours" child, that child gets more attention. Spend one-to-one parent-child time with that child. This is not a place for the kids to work it out. Really important to keep it safe. "I know you're upset with Joanie, and we need another way to manage this, and I'm going to watch closely."

Alison Stewart: Let's end this on Jen, who is calling in from Brooklyn. Hi, Jen. Thanks for taking the time to call All of It.

Jen: Thanks, Alison. I just said to the screener, I wish I'd heard this a decade ago when I became a stepparent. My stepson is now 19 years old. I came into his life when he was eight. Everything I'm hearing today is spot on. I took the advice from my sister-in-law to really step back in terms of disciplining my stepson and trying to "parent," as your guest said. He loves sports. We played sports constantly. I would take him to sporting events. It's created a beautiful, almost friendship that we have now.

I think he opens up to me in a way that he doesn't with his other parents sometimes, not to say there weren't lots of problems over the last 11 years. I really had to learn to take some of my issues to my husband and not to him, like any kind of disciplinary things. I really had to train myself to be like, "This is a conversation with my husband, not with my stepson."

Dr. Patricia Papernow: You figured it out, and that's part of why you have a positive relationship. You know what? I call it an intimate outsider. You're intimate enough, you know the kids, you're a little more outside, and it is a precious role down the road for kids and stepparents.

Alison Stewart: Is there anything that you would want people to take away from this conversation as we wrap up?

Dr. Patricia Papernow: Just that positive stepparent-stepchild relationship. We have a model now. We do have a model, but you're going to need to educate yourself. Staying out of discipline and really getting to know kids is probably one of the most important things you can do. Congratulations to the callers who figure that out on their own.

Alison Stewart: The name of the book is Surviving and Thriving in Stepfamily Relationships and The Stepfamily Handbook. It's by Dr. Patricia Papernow. Thank you for joining us, doctor.

Dr. Patricia Papernow: Thank you for having me. I'm so glad to be able to put this information out.