David Furst: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm David Furst. Sex can be complicated and difficult to talk about, and it hasn't been made any easier by how physical intimacy has historically been portrayed on screen. Whether we realize it or not, we are influenced by the way that we see sex portrayed on TV and in the movies. It may have an impact on how we approach physical and emotional intimacy in our own relationships. Ita O'Brien has made it her career to change how sex is represented on screen and, by extension, how we practice intimacy at home. O' Brien is an intimacy coordinator. She is behind some of the most progressive recent representations of sex on screen, from Normal People to Sex Education. She also developed the intimacy on set guidelines that have come to be used across the film industry. She's written a new book about how we can find greater intimacy in our lives to connect with those that we love and feel more comfortable in our bodies. It's called Intimacy: A Field Guide to Finding Connection and Feeling Your Deep Desires. It's out right now. Ita O'Brien joins us from the UK. Welcome.

Ita O'Brien: Thank you so much, David. Thank you for the introduction, and it's an absolute pleasure to be here.

David Furst: First, can we start by defining intimacy? Some might think of this as just a code word for sex. What do you mean when you use the word intimacy?

Ita O'Brien: Both in my work, when I'm exploring a script, I'm actually looking for when that intimacy is sparked, which is actually always the gaze, the first time the eyes fall on someone, and something is ignited. As I've continued to develop and explore this work, realizing that actually we have a whole rainbow of a gamut of our intimate expression. We have emotional, intellectual, spiritual, experiential intimacy that then can also lead to physical intimacy and then sexual intimacy. That's also wonderful to understand that how we are with our intimate partners encompasses all of those qualities of how we can be intimate with each other.

David Furst: I referred to in the beginning to how physical intimacy has been portrayed on screen. To be fair, there is a wide range of ways that that has been handled. Growing up in the 1980s, it seemed like in lots of movies, some kissing would start, and then suddenly, we're in a music video. Right? What was happening was bearing no connection to the characters that we were getting to know.

Ita O'Brien: That's right. What the intimacy guidelines have brought to the industry is supporting and inviting everybody to be open, creative, to consider this intimate part of storytelling, to understand that it is an extension of our physical storytelling. Just as a really good fight is about someone who got angry. You have angry words. It gets into louder and until you can't do anything but release to the physical storytelling. With intimacy, again, it's part of our physical storytelling. In the place where there was no professional structure by which to do it, explore this professionally, openly, creatively.

It was the elephant in the room. It was the aspect of, "Well, people weren't comfortable to talk about it." It was the aspect that wasn't spoken about. It was in the sense of shame and then the sense of the assumption, well, everybody had sex, so we don't have to talk about it, and just do it.

David Furst: The filmmakers wouldn't have to talk about it. They would just say, "Go and do something."

Ita O'Brien: Yes, that's right. It would be written in a script. Then, because it wasn't engaged with, because there wasn't a professional structure with which to engage with it, from the producer to the director to the DoP, that therefore it was just this unspoken thing. Then the assumption of this is what we want, and then you two actors, just do it. Just go in front of the camera, just get on with it. In that place, both it hasn't been written well because there wasn't a professional forum within which to creatively continue to engage right from the writing through to, like I say, the intention of the director, the director's vision.

Then, the actors being able to bring their vision for what they wanted. In that place, that's where you get this disjointed intimate scene that we have in the past that weren't released exploring who these characters were. Invariably, the actors would be doing their best, but it didn't really give us something that really elevated and gave us the best expression of who we are as human beings in these characters.

David Furst: Sounds like it could lead to a distressing workplace at the very least.

Ita O'Brien: This is it. Then, again, without there being a professional structure, the idea of agreement and consent, and this is on all aspects of what it means to engage with an intimate scene for two actors who aren't lovers, who are two people who might not even have met before that moment.

Suddenly to be asked to perform degrees of intimate touch, to be able to take clothes off, and then to perform simulated sexual content without a clear and professional journey, seeking agreement and consent, checking out what each person was comfortable with personally and then only offering and then only choreographing and working with what they were comfortable, what was in their boundaries to offer professionally with their nudity with where they're happy to be touched, and what simulated sexual content they were absolutely happy with.

David Furst: We're talking a little bit about what an intimacy coordinator does. Some of it is the choreography, like you're talking about, but a big part of it also is what you're talking about right now. Making sure that actors feel safe and making sure that they don't suffer real abuse.

Ita O'Brien: That's right. That's a large part of it. Also, for me, this work is actually about when you lift the lid, and you support everybody in order to be open and creative through a professional process that invites that open communication and transparency right from the get-go. Because also directors would say to me, "Oh, my goodness," before the intimacy guidelines, "How do I talk about this?" I felt that if I really engage with it in the way that I wanted to, I would be considered the one that was actually behaving inappropriately.

It goes for everybody. The DoP, the sound people who, if there's two performers who are having to be ostensibly looking as if they're naked, then a boom operator is going to be there. Actually, this work supports everybody to be taken care of, to be listened to and heard, putting in place professional structure so that everybody knows that the whole of the process is dealt with an open and professional way, seeking agreement and consent. Then if we can all be open and actually have a really good time and know that we're creating something that is elevating our human storytelling and depicting something that is absolutely serving the production and something that's of beauty.

David Furst: We're speaking with Ita O'Brien, an intimacy coordinator whose new book is called Intimacy: A Field Guide to Finding Connection and Feeling Your Deep Desires. We're also looking to hear from you. How do you try to build intimacy in your relationships? What do you find challenging about discussing physical intimacy with a partner? How do you try to feel confident in your body? Or is that difficult? This is a judgment-free zone. You can call or text us. The number is 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. I mentioned that you're an intimacy coordinator. How did you become one? Essentially, this is a role that you created.

Ita O'Brien: That's right. It was a very organic process. My journey in this career is I actually trained in ballet from the age of three. I ended up working as a musical theater dancer for 10 years. I trained as an actor, worked as an actor for eight years. Then I did the MA in Movement Studies at Central School of Speech and Drama and worked as a movement teacher and a movement director. Then I wrote my own work, which I put on in 2009. Then I was taking that piece further and looking at the dynamic of the perpetrator and the victim.

In that is what we call R&D, where there's not a script, but we're asking inviters to come and explore, these character storytellings. I was looking at how I held a really good rehearsal process. One of my colleagues, who is head of movement at one of the drama schools I taught at, said, "Please come and teach what you're developing. I have to note all this intimate content in my drama school. There isn't a professional structure to do it well, and you're creating a professional structure." That was in April 2015, so pre-Weinstein. Then I started sharing those guides with the industry in 2017.

[crosstalk]

David Furst: Pre-Harvey Weinstein is what you mean when you say that.

Ita O'Brien: Pre-Weinstein. That's right. That's right. That's right. Then, in the subsequent times of the MeToo movement and the industry post the Harvey Weinstein allegations, the industry saying we have to do better and writing codes of conduct, I was there to say I'm here within your intention to work with best practice. Here's how we work with the intimate content.

David Furst: I want to get into the conversation of how you're making this leap from intimacy on film to this book, where we're really talking about intimacy in real life. Right?

Ita O'Brien: That's right.

David Furst: I want to also take some phone calls. Let's hear. We're talking about intimacy today here on All Of It. The number, if you would like to join this discussion, 212-433-9692. Let's welcome Sharon from Queens. Welcome to All Of It.

Sharon: Hi. How are you? I am in a relationship at 72 years old that is special because he lives in South Carolina. The intimacy is always exciting because of the time we spend together. Always. No phones on. We put our phones down and just look in each other's eyes because we appreciate our lives at this point. Also, I wrote him a love letter which almost blew his mind for Valentine's Day, telling him exactly what I like done to me and what he would like done to you, and we just exchanged on the permission zone. I don't like it when you do that. It's not so much that, but I like it when you do this. The next time I see you, that would be done.

David Furst: Sharon, thank you so much for joining this discussion. What about that, Ita? I saw your eyes light up when you heard the no phone zone.

Ita O'Brien: Well, there's several things. First of all, wow, how gorgeous. Thank you so much, Sharon, for calling. Someone in their older years, heading into your 80s, it's so wonderful to hear how you are beautifully navigating your intimacy. My last chapter, finding the enchantress and intimacy into our older years, is what I'm championing, that it's so important that we understand that our intimacy into our older years, it doesn't stop. In fact, it possibly gets better.

Then look at what Sharon is doing, sharing the open communication, transparency is what I'm sharing, that what we can do in our intimate lives, considering what do I like and then importantly what I don't like and, and sharing that so that outside these sexual encounters and when you come together, then you can give each other the pleasure that you desire. She's listening to herself. She knows what she likes, and then she's communicating it. All of that is absolutely what I'm advocating for. Utterly joyous to hear her sharing that with us.

David Furst: We're speaking with Ita O'Brien. The new book is Intimacy: A Field Guide for Finding Connection and Feeling Your Deep Desires. We're going to take a quick break and continue this discussion. Coming up next with more of your calls. 212-433-9692. It's All Of It on WNYC. It's all of it on WNYC. I'm David Furst in for Alison Stewart. We're speaking with Ita O'Brien, the author of Intimacy: A Field Guide to Finding Connection and Feeling Your Deep Desires. We're going to get to one of your calls in just a moment.

I wanted to ask you, how do you make this leap from being an intimacy coordinator for TV and film to real life? Because that's primarily what this new book focuses on. When did you begin to realize that what you learned as an intimacy coordinator could apply to our actual relationships?

Ita O'Brien: My realization was, as I said, that shift to the intimate content being the elephant in the room. Actually, when you have a professional structure written out, open communication, transparency, then inviting agreement and consent, and then clear choreography, giving yourself a structure, and then closure. That actually those fundamental tenets are really wonderful structure to bring into our own lives. Then the next thing is -- First of all, that's quite a leap, and then that realization, and I myself come from a very strict Irish Catholic family.

I've come from that place of intimacy should only happen within the bounds of matrimony and only with the intention to procreate. That shift to going from that and then anything outside that, it was shame and guilt. That shift to then being open is part of my lived experience as well. Realizing, wow, what happens when you actually understand it's a beautiful part of who we are as human beings, and how we share our connection and intimacy with each other is actually the most wonderful part of not just our emotional and intimate expression, our spiritual expression, and just the most beautiful part of our loving.

That's what I'm really excited to share. Then the next thing is that, actually, the fundamentals then, in order to be able to do that, is actually to be present in your body too, and that journey of into-me-see, which is loving into-me-see. How do I love myself? How do I connect myself and then bring that into my partners? Actually, what I love following on from Katie Brown's, the article that I was listening to with her book about tiny gardens everywhere, is that's part of what I'm advocating.

It's so gorgeous that I'm following her because it is that. I'm saying, "Listen to yourself. Connect with yourself." We are earth beings, Earth, air, fire, and water, and so that thing of being present, being embodied, being grounded, just getting out in nature, that helps us stay alive and sensuous in our own bodies, helps us then to nurture our own intimacy. The different physical and movement techniques that I'm offering are little tools, like walking barefoot on the grass. Or again, listening to Sharon, just saying about sharing what you want in order to pause and stop and give yourself space.

It starts from actually, again, one of the techniques, the first one I'll offer is 20 connected breaths. So simple. Just a technique to help you just pause to be present with yourself. Be present with yourself. Letting go of perhaps what you've been doing. You've had a busy day. Pausing, connecting, getting grounded, listening, and then ready to then really connect and go on to the next part of your day. Particularly if you're going to perhaps have an evening with your partner. Those kind of techniques really help you to be present.

David Furst: You have lots of ideas and exercises in this book to help us be present in our lives. Our guest is Ita O'Brien. The book is Intimacy: A Field Guide to Finding Connection and Feeling Your Deep Desires. Ita, we have a lot of phone calls coming through right now. Thanks, everyone, for joining. I'm going to try to get to several of these calls very quickly here. Dara in Morristown, New Jersey, welcome to All Of It.

Dara: Thank you for taking my call. My question is, really, after the long day, it's very hard to be intimate with a partner. For me, intimacy is more about the emotional, and it starts with the whole body language, not just get to the business. With my partner, it's about getting to the business. We just can't match up with the frequency of it because I'm never ready after the long day. It feels a dragging day and don't know how to get there. We don't know how to talk about it. That's where we are stuck.

David Furst: Thank you so much for sharing, Dara. What would you say?

Ita O'Brien: Absolutely. What Dara is highlighting is actually making a time and space for each other. What Dara is beautifully sharing is at the end of a long day, when you're tired isn't perhaps the best time. Perhaps just talk about just like you would do if you're going to go to a cinema. Let's make this date. Perhaps talking about that's not a good time for me, perhaps at the weekend, when do we both have a free weekend, and let's just give time for each other. Perhaps it's starting by going for a walk in nature together and then coming back.

Perhaps just get together and let's give ourselves a foot massage, which you will find in my book, which again is a really lovely offering to each other. What you're saying is really and again, what I hear you saying is that you're really understanding your own energy, and then it's how to communicate. Then the next thing is that, again, that aspect of just as Sharon had said before is just sharing again with your partner. Perhaps just having that conversation of this works for me. This is what I really like.

If you're offering that, and again, when you're offering that, then it's like, and then on this date, "Let's just have a play. Let's just explore." Yes, make a date night and make it at a time that works for both of you.

David Furst: We only have about a minute left. I want to see if I could get you to respond to this text quickly. Someone saying, "I'm struggling with ways to increase the emotional intimacy I feel between my husband and myself, as I feel the lack of it is having an adverse effect on our sex life. When I tell him this, he says he needs physical intimacy to feel closer to me, so it seems like kind of a stalemate."

Ita O'Brien: What I really offer and what I offer for the book is what I can share with you is from my movement practice. What's very, very positive, if you're finding it at an impasse in your lives, is then possibly offering to go to a couple of therapists. Perhaps those are the kind of people that can help you listen and help you navigate those conversations when you find that there's a mismatch.

David Furst: I have about 150 questions here that I wanted to ask you that we're not going to have time for, but you can read much more about all of this in the new book. We've been discussing how to create more intimacy in our relationships. Our guest has been intimacy coordinator Ita O'Brien, and the new book is Intimacy: A Field Guide To Finding Connection and Feeling Your Deep Desires. Thank you so much for joining us.

Ita O'Brien: Thank you, David. It was an absolute pleasure to be here.

David Furst: For today, that is All Of It. I'm David Furst. Alison Stewart will be back tomorrow with musician Raphael Saadiq and a conversation about the new play Marcel on the Train. That's coming up tomorrow. Have a great afternoon. This is All Of It.