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Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. Bony Ramirez was just 13 when he left his home in the Dominican Republic. His family settled in Perth Amboy, New Jersey. It was while growing up in New Jersey that he got interested in making art, so he decided to teach himself.

After graduating high school, Ramirez worked in construction to make ends meet while also making sure to keep creating. He reserved Sundays to paint in his mom's kitchen. During the pandemic, Ramirez's work started to blow up online to the point that he was able to support himself as a full-time artist. Now, his life has come full circle.

He was offered an opportunity by the Newark Museum of Art to spend a year in its collections. The result of his yearlong exploration is a new exhibition of work that Bony made inspired by what he observed as part of the museum's Global Contemporary Series. Bony Ramirez's Cattleya is on view now at the Newark Museum of Art. Ramirez joins me now in studio alongside Elena Munoz-Rodriguez, Newark Museum assistant curator of Latinx and Latin American Art. Welcome both of you to WNYC.

Elena Munoz-Rodriguez: Thank you so much for having us.

Bony Ramirez: Thank you so much for having us. This is definitely an honor. Thank you for taking the time to have us today.

Kousha Navidar: Thank you, and thank you for coming by in the studio. I love talking about art in the studio, so it is my pleasure. Bony, let's start with your story. When you moved to the US from the Dominican Republic as a kid, the first museum that you visited was the Newark Museum of Art. What do you remember about that visit, the impression that it made?

Bony Ramirez: Yes. Definitely, as a self-taught artist, I did try to apply to different colleges and stuff. One of them was Essex County College. It's a county college that's right close to the museum. In the process of applying and trying to go, I had these free times during the day that I had to-- I was just wandering around the city of Newark and stuff. I always knew I wanted to do something in the arts, something creative. At that point, I just didn't think it was doing what I do today. I didn't think it was going to be that possible.

I wanted to be like a children's book illustrator or something that would be a little bit more "realistic" to the standards. That period of time was when I visited the Newark Museum. It was definitely life-changing in terms of again, literally the first museum and literally the first time visiting an institution. I think a lot of the inspiration for my work comes from the older periods of time, like the Renaissance period or a lot of older master works.

I think I've always loved history as well. I think one of the things I really liked at the museum is just from their history of like a lot of these historical works that they have in their collection that I was able to have access to, that I was able to learn about other contemporary artists at that point. Essentially, I think as a self-taught artist, just going to museums in general was the closest thing to an education that I had.

Specifically, the Newark Museum was like-- as the first one that I did, because at that point-- I don't know if it was because I was a new immigrant, but I was afraid of coming to New York. I was afraid of taking the subway and I'm like, "Oh, my God, the subway." That was also the closest museum that I had. Again, it was an essential tool for me to learn more about art, for me to learn about history, and to literally have access to those things too.

Kousha Navidar: Elena, how does this sound to hear somebody talk about the place where you work like that?

Elena Munoz-Rodriguez: [chuckles] It's amazing because I think as part of the curatorial team, and I think all the teams across the institution, we all try to really make our collections and our galleries really accessible to every type of visitor, even a visitor who's never been to a museum before. To hear that feedback and to hear that that was the feeling that somebody had in our space is really gratifying.

Kousha Navidar: Can you talk a little bit more about the Global Contemporary Series? What's the mission of the series? How does it work?

Elena Munoz-Rodriguez: Yes. The Global Contemporary Program is-- This is the fifth iteration. It's almost like a residency where an artist gets full access to our collection and storage and they create a new body of work in response to, or sometimes in conjunction with our collections. For example, there's three collection artworks from the Newark Museum of Art's collection in Bony's exhibition, and to prompt this conversation between our collection and a contemporary artist. [chuckles]

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking to Bony Ramirez, the artist, and Elena Munoz-Rodriguez, who is Newark Museum assistant curator of Latinx and Latin American Art. We're speaking about a new exhibition of Ramirez's work now on view at the Newark Museum of Art. It's called Cattleya, and it's inspired by a year that Ramirez spent in the museum's collections. For this exhibition, Bony, you spent a year in those collections. What impressed you about what you found?

Bony Ramirez: One, it was a big honor to even have access to the collection in general. Being in the museum definitely provided a lot of guidance and just access to their collection. A lot of things that you would never think that you would see in person, to be honest. I think as an art fanatic and as a history fanatic, just seeing a lot of these historical works, these really important works of art in person so up close as part of the research was definitely an honor. It felt really good. It felt really special to really have that connection.

Throughout the year, just looking at the collection and stuff, I also found different artists that I didn't know about that I also resonated with. One of the works, for example, that's on view at the show as part of the Museum's collection is a piece by Dominican artist Frederick Rodriguez. He passed away a couple of years ago. For example, I didn't know too much about his work. Elena brought it up and it was like, "Oh, there's another Dominican artist you should look into." It was really refreshing to also see that as part of the collection.

Of course, in the beginning, I gravitated toward works by artists that I already knew of, but just knowing about these other artists that have been working and have been opening the doors for artists like myself was also really refreshing as well.

Kousha Navidar: The exhibition is named, I believe, after a flower, is that right?

Bony Ramirez: Yes.

Kousha Navidar: Cattleya, which is an orchid that's native to Central and South America, right?

Bony Ramirez: Yes.

Kousha Navidar: What does the flower mean to you within the context of your work on view?

Bony Ramirez: Yes, so I think in this yearlong process of working on the show, I think I wanted that one what was going to be the focus. Going back to where I first visited the museum, one of the works that really spoke to me was this orchid painting by Ajith. I think, as a lot of people, that when we go to museums, we want to look for where we feel represented. I think when I saw that painting, this tropical orchid in this very tropical setting, it really made me feel like home. From there, that's where I wanted to dedicate the show itself to that flower. It's deconstructed in different sections.

The previous solo shows, I always gravitated towards flowers for the titles and different things and this particular-- I did a little more research about just genetically or scientifically about the flower itself. It has this layer of the historical side of the painting itself and what it means to the collection, but there's also a lot of the biological process of the flower.

These are epiphytic orchids, which means that they just attach themselves to trees. They're almost like-- I don't want to say they don't feed off of necessarily, but they occupy space in other trees. They just need air in their roots to grow. They just need a host essentially. From there, I try to relate it to the history, the history of the Caribbean, and see how it can be expanded into different ways.

Kousha Navidar: Is colonialism at all a part of that history?

Bony Ramirez: Yes.

Kousha Navidar: Can you talk about that a little bit?

Bony Ramirez: Definitely. I think when thinking about the orchid and this body of work, I thought about this idea of orchids just being these beautiful parasites, these things that occupy space in another space that does not belong to them. As humans, when we see an orchid, it's like, "Oh, my God, it's so beautiful," and we don't even think about the trees actually hosting.

I think from there, I tried to also connect it to the history of colonialism in the Caribbean and just this almost invader coming into a new space and also how the remnants of colonialism in the Caribbean is still a little bit remnant as well with like you still have the toxic side of tourism, a lot of things that it's not always the beautiful resorts and beaches. There's also other layers that are a little bit more tough to talk about for a lot of people or just a little bit-- Because most of the Caribbean, we depend on tourism. A lot of people don't talk about the also negative sides of tourism. I think that's another layer that the exhibition touches upon.

Beyond the history of colonization where there's a lot of paintings that tackle that, I also did some works that let us know a little bit how that still affects us today and how a lot of the relationships with the power dynamics between a lot of the foreigners, a lot of the people that already live in the islands have. I just wanted-- There's some works that talk about that specifically as well.

Kousha Navidar: Elena, how did you first become aware of Bony's work? What were your initial impressions?

Elena Munoz-Rodriguez: I was first introduced to Bony's- -work by Nicole Calderone at Calderone Gallery. Bony was showing as part of a group show there. We met at the closing reception of that exhibition and I was just really drawn to the ways that Bony rendered figures, and the way he plays with the human form. I was really interested in the ways that he challenges and plays with portraiture conventions, these elongated figures, and these elongated limbs and seashell ears, and these surrealist elements.

I also really liked that his figures were so rooted in the Caribbean, that it was just so clear to me that he was painting both a Caribbean history but also Caribbean futures. It's a little bit of both, these alternate possibilities.

Kousha Navidar: I would love if you could paint the image for us about what folks will experience once they walk into the exhibition room. How many pieces do they see? What's the first thing that you see?

Elena Munoz-Rodriguez: Well, depending on where you enter into the space. If you're coming off the elevator, one of the first pieces that you'll see in that first room is the Freddie Rodriguez painting that Bony mentioned, as well as a new painting by Bony of two men embracing, and then a self-portrait of Bony called Sitting on a Bucket of Paint, self-portrait as a calf. There is a taxidermied calf and it's a site-specific installation.

As you continue through the space, you'll see an 8-foot round tondo painting at the back of the gallery, that it just, even though it's a very long space, I feel that she's one of the first things you really see and you really gravitate towards. She has such a presence. You'll also see a wall of chains or I should say an arch of chains. There are these architectural elements that we've incorporated into the exhibition as well.

Kousha Navidar: We're talking about Cattleya, which is on display now at The Newark Museum of Art. We're speaking about that exposition-- oh, sorry, exhibition that has been inspired by a year that Bony Ramirez spent in the museum's collections. Bony, going into your story a little bit more, before you were a full-time artist you worked in construction, right?

Bony Ramirez: Yes, yes, yes.

Kousha Navidar: I'm curious, and maybe just the answer is no here, but construction workers are skilled laborers. Was there anything from the craft of your construction job, the discipline, the effort required that has informed an aspect of your work today as an artist?

Bony Ramirez: Oh, 100%. I think as a self-taught artist, I think I worked a lot, one with a lot of things that were just available to me. Construction, as well as being an artist, they require a lot of problem solving, just work with what you have kind of thing. At that point, I didn't realize it when I was still working construction, but I think looking back at it, a lot of the skills, my work is working in sculpture, and a lot of these more sculptural paintings as well. They require technical stuff that really coming from construction a lot of those skills played a role in.

Some paintings include like-- they have these almost this wooden compositions, a lot of-- there's this painting in the show that has a machete attached to it. There's another painting that has almost like this shelf as part of the painting itself that a lot of the skills that I learned in construction played a role in me learning about. Like just using a handsaw, cutting marble and different things that I never thought it was going to be helpful. I think it's one of those things that let you see why the universe put you in certain spaces.

Kousha Navidar: Well, speaking of that I understand that while you worked in construction, your studio was often your mother's kitchen.

Bony Ramirez: Yes, yes, yes.

Kousha Navidar: Did she have to warn you about keeping the kitchen clean? What was that dynamic like?

Bony Ramirez: Yes, so basically, even going back to the first question, I work on wood panels, so at that point, I made my own wood panels. That they had to be a certain size because they had to fit within the kitchen and small enough also that I could just put them back in my closet when I was not working on it. Also yes, I think it was definitely restrictive in that sense of there was a lot of stuff that I couldn't use or a lot of stuff that I had to make sure to keep it clean.

Or there were days where it's like I had Sundays to paint, but if my mom was cooking that day, then I couldn't really paint and I had to do something else. I would say just for example, when I finally had an art studio, it was definitely another-- my work definitely grew. I think that's where I started using even more of those skills that I learned construction because I didn't have to worry about the cutting wood and different things that would in the kitchen setting, it would not be the best.

Kousha Navidar: Well, it is such a relatable and I think inspiring story too. Even just the dedication that it requires to make art. There are plenty of young artists out there who are now in our area who want to do what you do, but maybe have to support their family, or don't have the money, or unsure about how to take the next step. From your experience, what's one piece of advice that you'd give to a young artist who is in a similar position that you were in?

Bony Ramirez: A lot of people say this, and even myself, I was a little skeptical about it when people say, "Oh, follow your dreams, believe in yourself," but I would say that that would be my advice as well. Definitely believe in yourself and your practice, that that's really going to take you far. I think it's good even sometimes to be a little bit even delusional about certain things.

Because I think being an artist is not easy. It's not like you want to be a doctor, and you get certain degrees, and you just become a doctor. Here there's a lot of different things that can go into play into being a "successful artist." I think it's very important to know where you want to go for you to then see how to get there. So I think--

Kousha Navidar: Going back where it's like [unintelligible 00:16:31].

Bony Ramirez: Yes, yes, yes. So I think for a lot of artists, I think the more clear your goal is, the clear it is the road to it. In the beginning, I knew what I wanted to be and I think it was just more figuring out how do I get there. I think it is also okay to just go with the wind, but I think it is very important for you to have a clear idea of what you want to be as an artist, because there's so many avenues in the arts for example. You don't have to necessarily be-- I'm just speaking from the gallery artist standpoint. If that's what you want to do it, to just have that clear or just any other artistic sides.

Kousha Navidar: We'll have to pause it there but I want to just ask real quickly in 10 seconds. I know that there is a book signing event. Elena, can you say just where it is, when it is?

Elena Munoz-Rodriguez: Yes. On Saturday, May 18th, we're having an American art convening called Changing It Up. As part of this all-day artist-led event, we will be having a book signing at 1:00 PM at the museum.

Kousha Navidar: We've been talking to Bony Ramirez and Elena Munoz-Rodriguez. Bony is the artist behind Cattleya it is on display now at The Newark Museum of Art. Thank you both so much.

Bony Ramirez: Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you.

Elena Munoz-Rodriguez: Thank you for having us.

Bony Ramirez: Thank you for having us.

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