Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here. On today's show, Author Kiran Desai is here in studio to talk about her new novel, The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny. The Hudson Jazz Festival is happening this weekend. Vibraphonist and composer Joel Ross joins us for a preview and to perform live in WNYC Studio 5. Plus, a sociologist turns her lens on her own history in her new book, Five Star White Trash: A Memoir of Fraud and Family, she joins us to discuss. That is our plan. Let's get this started with a conversation about the art of bread making reimagined gluten-free.

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Aran Goyoaga grew up surrounded by bread, literally. Her family owned a bakery in the Basque country where Aran grew up in northern Spain. She followed the family trade and became a fourth generation baker and pastry chef. After a health scare, Aran learned she was gluten intolerant and she had to suddenly switch to a gluten-free diet, and her career followed as she has dedicated her career to researching gluten-free baking. The result is a new cookbook called, The Art of Gluten-Free Bread. It is out now. Aran Goyoaga is with me in studio now to talk about the book and take your questions about gluten-free baking. It is very nice to see you.

Aran Goyoaga: Nice to see you, Alison. Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: We hear the phrase gluten-free, just for the person in the back who doesn't know what it means, what is gluten and what does it contribute to the baking process?

Aran Goyoaga: Gluten is a protein that exists in a lot of grains and most common is wheat. It's a protein that when it gets hydrated, so it gets moistened and it gets kneaded, it stretches. When you make bread and you ferment yeast, all the gases that are released from that fermentation get trapped by these elastic strands of protein and then the bread rises. When you don't have gluten, then you have to create a recipe that can mimic that in some way or you can leaven it and maintain that rising in some way. That's what I did in this book.

Alison Stewart: When did you find out you had a gluten intolerant?

Aran Goyoaga: It was 2010. I was pregnant and I started having vertigo, hearing loss. I developed Hashimoto's, which is thyroid disease. Then I was diagnosed with Meniere. I had a bunch of autoimmune things and then finally a doctor said maybe you have food allergies. Sure enough, I was diagnosed with gluten intolerance. Then as soon as I gave up gluten, my vertigo went away.

Alison Stewart: You heard you were gluten intolerant, you were a baker. What did you think?

Aran Goyoaga: I was actually excited, if I'm being honest, because I was so sick that I loved focusing on something that could heal me and being able to remove that from my diet. Being a baker, I understood technique and I had experience with gluten-free grains, always in conjunction with wheat. It was a challenge and I was excited for it.

Alison Stewart: What do you think those of us who don't eat gluten-free, what do you think are the biggest misunderstandings about gluten-free baking especially?

Aran Goyoaga: That things are like hockey pucks and dry, and have no flavor. It's complete opposite. You can have really tender breads, super flavorful and nourishing. You can expand your horizons. If you're a baker and you actually love the art of baking, you should know all the other naturally gluten-free flours that exist out there like buckwheat, sorghum, millet. There's so many.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we want to get you in on this conversation, especially those of you who are gluten-free or gluten intolerant. What's your favorite gluten-free bread or baked good? What is your favorite gluten-free pastry in the city? Give us a call. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. What's your favorite gluten-free recipe to make at home?

What questions do you have about gluten-free baking, or maybe your parents or the parents of kids who are gluten-free. What do you like to buy or make for your kids? Our phone lines are open. 212-433-9692, 212-4433-WNYC. I'm speaking with Aran Goyoaga. We are discussing her new cookbook, The Art of Gluten-Free Bread. We all love bread. We like a trip to the bakery. What advice would you tell someone who has to make the transition to a gluten-free style?

Aran Goyoaga: I would say, first of all, embrace. Don't feel like you're missing out. Think about it like something that you're learning. I know it's intimidating to have to buy more ingredients than just all purpose flour. Once you make that initial investment of understanding, "I'm going to have to buy a few ingredients," read up a little bit about it.

Like my book starts with a very comprehensive chapter on what each ingredient does and why you're doing that, and why you're buying these things, and also finding the best quality, because there's big inconsistency amongst brands. That's a a big hurdle initially. Once you understand this, everything else is actually quite simple because with gluten you're actually trying to manipulate it a lot. When you don't have gluten, there's not that much you have to do with it. Essentially it's mixing, shaping, proofing and baking, and you can still get amazing rises and flavorful loaves.

Alison Stewart: Just a question for you personally. Once you realized that you were gluten intolerant, what was life like in supermarkets and in bakeries for you?

Aran Goyoaga: Bakery is non existent because I don't think that there was anything going on, maybe a muffin or something like that, but nothing in the world of bread or delicious bread. Anything that you found in the supermarket was usually pretty frozen, and nothing wrong with that. I have bought plenty of frozen gluten-free bread.

Oftentimes they have a little bit more additives to extend shelf life. Initially, so this is 2012 or 2010, it was quite hard to find ingredients, but I feel like right now any supermarket you go to is going to have a section dedicated to gluten-free flours. It's come so far.

Alison Stewart: You've been very open about talking about in interviews a period of disordered eating you had. I'm curious now that you had to think about your eating, was it helpful to you, or was it something you had to keep your eye on so it didn't become an issue?

Aran Goyoaga: That's a good question. I have definitely struggled with periods of, even if I wasn't actively in a eating disorder, the part of wanting to control your surroundings, that is at the root cause of an eating disorder, or mental health doesn't go away. I'm always having to keep myself in check. It's true, when you're trying to think so much about ingredients and what you can't eat and cannot eat, it can trigger a lot of more like orthorexia things.

I feel like I'm definitely over it in the sense I will never fall into that pattern again, but it is something that stays with you. I understand maybe someone's feeling of deprivation. I don't want people to feel deprived or haunted by food in some way. I really always wanted to make it joyous. Think about all the things you can have and that are actually good for you.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. This is Lisa calling in from [unintelligible 00:08:59] Hi, Lisa. Thanks for taking the time to call All Of It. You're on the air.

Lisa: Oh, thank you. I have a question because I'm trying to focus on my health, and going vegan and gluten-free, because I think gluten may be inflammatory. I'm also really focused on low carb, low glycemic index. While I know whole grains are really important, are there any breads or techniques to make the food low carb, high protein, high fiber?

Aran Goyoaga: All the recipes are going to be high fiber because fiber is the ingredient that is binding them all together, like psyllium and flaxseed. I totally understand, with grains, you're always going to have a higher carbohydrate content. I've also been grain free in periods of my time because of inflammation. I would say cassava flour is a--

Although cassava flour is actually quite high in carbohydrates, but it is grain free and some people can tolerate it and digest it better. I would say buckwheat is actually not a real true grain. They call it a pseudo grain. It's more like a seed. There's a recipe in the book for buckwheat and chestnut flour, sourdough bread and sourdough baguettes. I think that's a good place to start.

I know there's a lot of like cottage cheese breads and things like that. I'm not still sold on that idea. I think really you can eat carbohydrates and combine them with something that's a little bit higher in protein to really work on that glycemic index. I understand the whole grain free thing. I think flatbreads are a great way to incorporate some bread product that is a little bit more in that realm.

I love making cassava and tiger nut flour tortillas, for example, or adding roasted squash into a cassava flour tortilla to bring in more fiber. There are ways without having to give up bread or some bread like product altogether.

Alison Stewart: Here's a question someone has texted us. Does removing gluten impact flavor?

Aran Goyoaga: Not at all. It impacts maybe how open your crumb can be. If you're thinking of focaccia that has huge holes in it, or like a sourdough that's very hydrated and had huge holes in it, you're probably not going to get that. In fact, you're going to add a lot of flavor because using buckwheat flour, teff flour, oat flour, or sorghum, or millet, those are full of flavor, unlike all purpose flour that it's quite bland.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call from Riley, who is calling in from Montclair, New Jersey. Hi, Riley. Thanks for calling All Of It. You're on the air with Aran Goyoaga.

Riley: Hello.

Alison Stewart: Hello.

Aran Goyoaga: Hi, Riley

Riley: Hi. I have 22 food allergies, and two of those are gluten and buckwheat. My two best friends are also gluten intolerant and we bond over finding foods that we can actually eat. It's really nice because we don't feel like a burden to each other because we all have to be gluten-free. One of the bakeries that I love most is actually located in Montclair called Plum Bakery.

It's completely gluten-free. If any of the listeners are in the area, it's a really good bakery. I do have one question for your guest, and it is, what is the most accessible gluten-free recipe that you would recommend for people at home to make?

Aran Goyoaga: I think any of the flatbreads that are in my book are great, like pita. It's so easy to make and it doesn't require a lot of technique. I feel like it's a low effort, high reward recipe that you can use in so many ways like with dips or stuffed, or for sandwiches. It's really easy. We'll have to go to Montclair to try Plum.

Alison Stewart: I wanted to ask you, you talk about gums a lot in the book. You write that too often gluten-free bread results on a heavy amount of starches and gums to provide elasticity and softness. What kind of gums are we talking about?

Aran Goyoaga: I'm talking about xanthan gum in particular, which I do use because sometimes it's an ingredient that you can't skip. To make croissants or something that's really flaky and that it stretches, you really do need to use a little bit of xanthan gum. It's not the best ingredient to eat every day, all the time, so sparingly and when it's more of a treat.

Sometimes, like in industrial products, when you buy gluten-free bread, if you look at the package and it has like methylcellulose, which comes from wood. It's a byproduct of wood, I think, I could be saying this wrong, but I am pretty sure it's true. Things like that that are not very good for your health overall. I'm always trying to make things that are delicious, but also good for your body and your digestion. It's always a bit of a balance of those things.

Alison Stewart: I wanted to ask you about some of your fall baking recipes. In the book, there's one that's spice Apple strudel Brioche crown. You said it's one of your favorites to make in the fall. I like all those words. How do you make a streusel for this?

Aran Goyoaga: Streusel, if you ever are in a pinch, and you want to make a streusel and you don't have a recipe, think it's one part flour, one part sugar, and one part butter. You could use a gluten-free flour. It could be even just plain white rice flour or flour mix, and then do equal parts of it by weight, like 1 ounce of flour, 1 ounce of butter, 1 ounce of sugar, and you mix it all together into a crumble and it's done. When I went to pastry school, we used to learn a lot of things by ratios, so they were easy to memorize. Like 1:1:1, 3:2:1.

Alison Stewart: What's the texture of that particular dish, Spice Apple Streusel Brioche crown?

Aran Goyoaga: Long name, it's brioche. It's a very fluffy bread that you roll-- It's almost like when you roll a cinnamon roll and you roll it and you fill it, so it has cooked apples that are spiced, they're soft. You roll the brioche thinly, then you fill it with the apple. You roll it, you twist it, you put it in a bun pan. Sorry, I couldn't think of the word. A bunt pan. You proof it, you put streusel on top, you bake it and it's like fluffy, has this apple pie filling and then a crunchy top. It's really delicious now with apple season.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Aran Goyoaga. We're discussing her new cookbook, The Art of Gluten-Free Bread. We'd like to hear from you. What's your favorite gluten-free baked good to make at home? Where is your favorite gluten-free pastry in the city? Or do you have questions about gluten-free baking? Our Phone lines are open. 212-433-9692, 2124-33-WNYC. You can join us on air or you can text to us at that number. We'll have more of your calls and more with Aran after a quick break. This is All Of It.

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You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm speaking with Aran Goyoaga. We're discussing her new cookbook, The Art of Gluten-Free Bread. We're also hearing from you. Edith online too is calling in from Manhattan. Hi, Edith, you're on the air.

Edith: Hi. Thank you for the segment. It's wonderful and a great guest and I'm definitely going to get the book. I'm also gluten intolerant. I was diagnosed right around the same time you were 2009, 2010, my life changed so much for the better. I was very sick. I just wanted to give one shout out and one question.

The shout out is for a 100% gluten-free place up here, a bakery and also a sister restaurant next to it. It's also kosher for those who it matters. Happy New Year to everybody. It's called Modern Bread and Bagel. It actually one in eater.com year the one of the best bagels in New York City.

Aran Goyoaga: It's a good place.

Alison Stewart: Such a good place. What's your question?

Edith: I'd bet you'd know it, Alison. It's right across the street from [unintelligible 00:18:30] You know, Oliver? Anyway. I just wanted to shout that out. It's 82nd and 83rd on Columbus and it's great destination place. Then my question was the one thing since I-- I thank God things have changed. There's much more and more gluten-free stuff but I can't get a good gluten-free croissant. Is that possible?

Aran Goyoaga: It's your lucky day because there's one in my book. It's really delicious and actually people have already been sharing it with me. I'm just really impressed with the results. People send me photos of their croissants all the time. Maybe you can try it and then message me through Instagram and show me what you've done.

Alison Stewart: Was that hard to figure out?

Aran Goyoaga: It's probably the hardest recipe in the book because not only do you have to ferment the dough like bread, it's yeasted and then you have to laminate it. You need elasticity to be able to stretch it without all the butter oozing out. It was a little tricky to get the right dough consistency.

Alison Stewart: This text says, so many gluten-free pizzas are that sort of cracker texture for Nino. Greenpoint has the best we found so far. It has a balance of a chewy crispy. How do you make good gluten-free pizza crust that doesn't have that crackery texture to it?

Aran Goyoaga: The key to that is to have a high hydration dough, meaning that it's high in water. For the dough to absorb all that water and to have chew and bounce is to use the right balance of psyllium husk powder. I feel like that's been the key lately to use to get that chew that you're talking about. Also a lot of commercial-- B careful if you're eating out and you don't know what pizza dough they're using.

Sometimes they use a common ingredient that's starting to come into the US is wheat starch, which it's labeled gluten-free. A lot of people seem to be okay with it, but a lot of people who are glute intolerant are also wheat intolerant. I feel like a lot of pizzas out there have wheat. And so just, just be careful of it.

Alison Stewart: You've mentioned a whole lot of different flours and different ingredients. For a starter kitchen, for a starter baker, what should someone have in their pantry?

Aran Goyoaga: I would say have tapioca starch and have brown rice flour. Maybe if I can add one more, almond flour, if you can tolerate nuts. I feel like those especially tapioca starch and brown rice flour are the basics that will give you something that's not too dense but still whole grainy. It's as simple as that.

I think if you've never really baked and you just feel lost, go ahead and buy a gluten-free flour mix. Or you can make your own by mixing a bunch of ingredients together. It will be a good starting point. Once you understand baking and what happens with gluten-free baking, then you can maybe start like, "Oh, I'm gonna just experiment a little bit."

Alison Stewart: I have about a half a bag of sweet rice flour sitting in my pantry. What can I do?

Aran Goyoaga: Oh, you can make-- I actually developed this Dutch baby recipe for America's Test Kitchen. I'm a resident editor in residence at America's Test Kitchen. I developed this Dutch baby recipe that has blueberries and only uses sweet white rice flour. It gives it like a chewy texture and crispy outside that is delicious. You don't have to have a bunch of stuff besides that.

Alison Stewart: Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Let's talk to Alicia calling in from Brooklyn. Hi, Alicia, thanks for calling All Of It.

Alicia: Hi, Alison, hi, Aran. So excited to get my hands on this book. I have had celiac disease for 20 years and my, how far we've come in the baking world. I wanted to shout out also Modern Bread and Bagel. There's a place on 14th street near Union Square as well. Thank you, Aran, so much for developing this book. It's so hard to get a bread that's not tragic that is also gluten-free.

I wanted to also give listeners as a longtime celiac haver, a hot tip on char pastry dough or phyllo style dough in the frozen section of any grocery store that carries it. It is great for a flaky pastry and for spanakopita. For the caller that was bemoaning the lack of croissants available, gluten-free. If you're ever in Montreal, there is a gluten-free bakery that makes the best gluten-free croissant I've ever had, but I haven't tried Aran's yet. I will get back with the comparison. Thank you so much.

Alison Stewart: We want to hear more about you in that croissant. Let's talk to Melanie in Manhattan. Hey, Melanie, thanks for calling, All Of It. You're on the air with Aran Goyoaga. Sorry, Goyoaga.

Melanie: Hi, thanks. I'm excited to be here. I'm really enjoying the segment. My family recently opened up a pizza restaurant on Bleecker street. We do a 72-hour fermentation on our dough, that's our regular dough, and a lot of people who are gluten intolerant have said that they have no issues with it because of the long fermentation. We recently added a gluten-free Detroit style dough to our menu and we are getting rave reviews on our gluten-free pizzas. I guess I was just curious if the guest has any sort of advice. Is there something--

Alison Stewart: I think she lost [crosstalk]

Aran Goyoaga: Advice. Maybe she's referring to advice about baking it separately. Especially if they are deep dish, that's what she said, right? Deep dish pizzas, I would say use separate cast iron pans for those that are gluten-free, they're asking for the gluten-free pizza. Then you should be safe as long as you maintain separation between where you're rolling the other doughs and stretching them.

Alison Stewart: s Melanie still there? She's not there.

Melanie: Can you hear me?

Alison Stewart: Hi Meli. So is your place called the Pizza Box?

Melanie: It's the Pizza Box NY. We're on Bleecker and Sullivan in Manhattan. We do use separate pans. We're really dedicated right now to making an exceptional gluten-free. I love this segment. It's right on time for us. I appreciate it. I'm sorry about the signal. I lost you as well. I'm sorry about that.

Alison Stewart: That's okay. We got it out. Before we wrap up, we're about to end up in the holidays. Do you have something in the book that's a holiday bread that you would like to share with folks?

Aran Goyoaga: Yes. So many. There's a whole chapter that's holiday breads. There's challahs, there's panettone, there's babka crowns, there's semla for all the Swedes out there. There's Spanish rosconderles, which is like a king's cake, like New Orleans king's cake. It's a full chapter dedicated to holiday breads that are sweet and also savory.

Alison Stewart: When you're thinking about the future of gluten-free baking, what do you hope for it?

Aran Goyoaga: I actually want this book and all of the other gluten-free books that are out there and everybody that's baking gluten-free commercially, bakeries that we come out of this fad category or special diet category, and that my book and other books live next to the other baking books that are renowned. I hope really that people will treasure it and embrace it and that it will be known as something that's revolutionize and make things accessible for everybody, that nobody feels deprived.

Alison Stewart: The name of the book is The Art of Gluten-Free Bread. It is by Aran Goyoaga. Thank you for coming to the studio. We really appreciate it.

Aran Goyoaga: Thank you, Alison.