Alison Stewart: You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Sarah Kinsley is a New-York-based singer, songwriter, and producer who just wrapped up a national tour with a couple of secret shows right here in New York. Her album is titled Escaper, and The Guardian said she is one to watch. Sarah joined us as our November Get Lit musical guest, and in just a bit, you'll hear her talk about the connection she sees between writing a novel and writing a song. First, here she is with a special live performance of her song The Giver from our Get Lit with All Of It book club event.

[MUSIC - Sarah Kinsley: The Giver]

Sarah Kinsley: You give him head in the basement

You laugh at his jokes, stomach aching

Fake when you come, taking a pill

He leaves when it's done

You forgive when he doesn't get home

Tell your friends you don't really mind being alone

You are the one who can change him, satiate him

I'm a giver, he says "Me too"

He is hungry for someone but doesn't know who

I'm a giver or am I a fool?

He forgets the words, so I teach him to say "I love you"

He turns around when you're naked

Says "We should be friends" while you're changing

You nod, half-dressed, he says "It's for the best"

And "You know, you're really not like the rest"

So, we part our lips for the taking

But if these lips could open, they'd scream

"I wanna love you like I'm raining"

Like I don't need saving

But I'm a giver and he's immune

He is hungry for someone but doesn't know who

I'm a giver, he's the moon

And I reach and I reach and I forgive the girl who loved you

Are you hungry for me, baby, are you hungry?

Are you hungry for me, baby?

Are you hungry for me, baby?

[applause]

Alison Stewart: Hi. Do you want to stay there or you want to come over?

Sarah Kinsley: I can come over there.

Alison Stewart: Come on over.

Sarah Kinsley: [inaudible 00:05:01] allowed.

Alison Stewart: Yes, you're allowed. [laughs] Life has changed so much for you. You graduated from Columbia-

Sarah Kinsley: I did, yes.

Alison Stewart: - in 2022. You released your debut album. You've been on tour. When you think about what the past few years have been like, what's changed the most, and what stayed the same?

Sarah Kinsley: Yes, it's really strange. I think that my career as a musician began when I was like 20, and I'm 25 now. There's just a lot that happens in those years. I think, at the beginning, it was really overwhelming. It's strange to be a musician now, I think. I guess it always has been, but it's even weirder now. I don't know. I think my life has become a lot more grounded. I tour a lot more. There's an understanding I have with the person I am here in New York and then the person I am when I leave, so that's clear I think.

Alison Stewart: You heard us talking to Susan about writing a book. What was interesting to you as someone who writes songs?

Sarah Kinsley: I mean, I think the process just-- It sounds very similar in many ways, but also completely different. I think the arc of a character is not that different than building the life of a song. I think that songs are wonderful in the sense that you can just pour so much into them in the same way you do for a character, but it almost feels like authors and writers, yes, you can maybe have a bit more leeway with saying what's fiction.

I think when you're a songwriter, it's pretty obvious most of the time what you're writing about, unless you're-- My favorite band of all time is the Cocteau Twins, and they don't say anything. Yes, you don't even know what they're talking about most of the time. I think that, yes, it feels maybe a little bit more vulnerable, but they're also both equally vulnerable, I think, in the same way too.

Alison Stewart: One of the characters in the book has to move around a lot. She moves to Japan, and you moved around a lot as a little kid. Tell us-

Sarah Kinsley: I did.

Alison Stewart - all the different places you lived.

Sarah Kinsley: Oh, yes. Thank you, Dad. I was born in California, and then when I was about, I guess, five months old, we moved to Switzerland for my dad's job. Don't remember that at all. Then, I spent most of my life in Connecticut in a town called Branford, which is pretty boring [chuckles] and really classic suburban life. Then, I moved to Singapore when I was 10. I was there for a little bit. I guess I consider myself from both of those places, but I really spent about seven years of my life, seven or five years in both. Then, I came back to a different town in Connecticut, and now I live here.

Alison Stewart: You've been around.

Sarah Kinsley: [chuckles] Yes.

Alison Stewart: In the book, it's mentioned that one of the characters grew up with classical music in the household, and sometimes you were called a classically-trained musician. Do you like that, or is that too much of a box to put you into?

Sarah Kinsley: Oh, no, it's fact. It's just true. I think if you called me a classical musician now, it would be [chuckles] maybe an insult to classical music, and also maybe to me because it's not maybe accurate now. Yes, I mean, I spent the first 15 years of my life playing in orchestras and playing piano, and it was a sort of classic Chinese American upbringing, but I loved it. I still do. I listen to it a bunch still.

Alison Stewart: Ooh. Who do you like to listen to?

Sarah Kinsley: I was talking about this yesterday because of the Spotify thing that wraps up what you've been listening to, but my number two artist was Maurice Ravel, who's my favorite composer. I love him. I love Chopin and Debussy, so yes.

Alison Stewart: I like Debussy.

Sarah Kinsley: Yes. Pretty good stuff.

Alison Stewart: When did you decide to branch off into pop and synth?

Sarah Kinsley: I got really tired of classical music by the end. I found it really beautiful and fulfilling, and I was really grateful to be introduced to music that way because it had nothing to do with language. There's no lyrics in that kind of music, so you fall in love with melodies and you fall in love with sounds. Then, I went to college, and when I was in high school, I started listening to a lot of different stuff. Yes, I was tired of restrictions.

I think music theory was something I studied a lot of in college, and it was tough because sometimes I would say, "God, I love how this sounds." My teachers would be like, "Yes, but that's wrong. It's just not what I'm looking for." I don't know. I think I was in New York for the first time. People in my class were playing jazz. People were going to shows. People were having shows in basements. I was learning how to play guitar. I think it just led me down that path instead.

Alison Stewart: You just got off tour, but you had a couple of secret shows in New York at Baby's All Right. What was it like to wrap up your shows in that space?

Sarah Kinsley: Oh, it was very beautiful. I went to so many shows at Baby's when I moved here about seven years ago. We did these two really intimate nights. I played a bunch of new music, and it was fun. I think I love them so much because I, like a lot of other people, just crave music that's real and in front of you, and I think there's nothing like live music. The internet makes me feel sometimes very detached from myself and from other people, and getting to introduce new music that has never existed digitally yet and in this setting was really cathartic for me.

Alison Stewart: Tell us what our next song we're going to hear from you is.

Sarah Kinsley: Going to play you a song called The King, which is kind of the song that began my whole career.

Alison Stewart: Sarah Kinsley.

Sarah Kinsley: Thank you.

[applause]

Sarah Kinsley: I wrote this song-- I used to do this thing, which I still do, and I would highly recommend it if you don't, if you've never done it before. Before every birthday, I would write a letter to myself to open the next year's birthday, and when I was 19, about to turn 20, I was terrified of getting older. I still am. I wrote down this wish. I really wanted to make a song that would pay homage to what it felt like to be a teenager and to feel so free and feel like you could do anything if you could put your mind to it.

This song was like an encapsulation of that wish and of that dream. It brings me back to a very special time, I think, in my life. This is a song called The King.

[MUSIC - Sarah Kinsley: The King]

Sarah Kinsley: I built a time machine to see you again

To hear your phone call, your voice down the hall

The way we were back then

We were dancing in the rain

Our feet on the pavement

You said I was your second head

I knew exactly what you meant

So tell me

Before we get older let's do everything

You're scared of when it's over

You're still young and you're still free

I want to be the king of your heart

Let's fall apart and start again

You'll see the end of me

I built a castle far away in the sand

We were higher than we knew with nothing to lose

Until it washed away in our hands

And you said you could never love again

Well it must've been fate then

'Cause I know exactly how it ends

So tell me

Before we get older let's do everything

You're scared of when it's over

You're still young and you're still free

I want to be the king of your heart

Let's fall apart and start again

You'll see the end of me

I want to be the king

I'm your king

I wanna be the king

[applause]

Sarah Kinsley: Thank you so much.

Alison Stewart: That was Sarah Kinsley with a performance of her hit song The King from our November Get Lit with All Of It book club event.