Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. 100 years ago today, an artistic movement debuted, which now defines the New York City skyline. On April 28th, 1925, an international exhibition opened in Paris, presenting what we now consider Art Deco. Soon the movement crossed the pond to America in the form of architecture murals and mosaics. It's the reason some of New York's most famous buildings look the way they do, the Empire State Building, the Chrysler Building, 30 Rock, all constructed around the same time.

There are also more subtle designs around the city that represent the best of Art Deco. We'll discuss those with my next guest. Francis Morrone is an architectural historian. He's also an adjunct instructor at NYU, and Francis is here to help us commemorate 100 years of Art Deco and to take your calls. Thank you for coming to the studio.

Francis Morrone: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: When we say, "Oh, that looks Art Deco," what do we mean?

Francis Morrone: Nobody knows. Well, nobody knows and everybody knows. There's no strict definition of Art Deco. Anyone who tells you, "This is what Art Deco means," don't listen to that person, because there's someone right behind that person with a completely different set of criteria for what constitutes Art Deco. It's funny in that way, and yet the thing about it is that you know it when you see it. Like so much of architecture, it's really all about the mood that it creates. There are so many different things that we label as Art Deco that actually have very little in common with each other, except that they seem to elicit the same mood.

Alison Stewart: What would that mood be?

Francis Morrone: It's--

Alison Stewart: Elegant?

Francis Morrone: Yes, elegance, I think, is part of it, but it's a feeling of modernity but the kind of modernity that, oddly to us in 2025, seems a little bit old fashioned, like an old fashioned idea of modernity. That's what the architects and designers of the time were striving for. It was the new century. They wanted to be modern, they wanted to be up to date. It's just that nobody really yet knew what modern meant, what it meant to be modern, or how that would look.

It was a period of the 1920s we're talking about, a period of wild experimentation in architecture. Probably in no other decade in the whole history of architecture, going back to the beginning of architecture, was there so much diversity in what was being done, because everyone was furiously experimenting and trying to be modern. This was one of the ways, in fact, I think that a lot as you know, back then, nobody said Art Deco. The term didn't exist.

Alison Stewart: Right. Didn't exist until the '60s.

Francis Morrone: Yes, not till the '60s. Not a single Art Deco architect thought he was doing Art Deco. He was trying to be modern. The French term that was used at the time was le style moderne or just modern style.

Alison Stewart: Style, modern style.

Francis Morrone: Yes, the modern style. Later on, we got a very different kind of modern architecture, the Seagram Building and the United Nations, and so on, which looked nothing like Art Deco. We had to come up with a new name for Art Deco. We couldn't call it modern anymore.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, let's get you in on this conversation. We'd love to hear from you. What is your favorite Art Deco building in New York, and why? 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. What do you find most interesting about Art Deco as a style? What do you think it captures about New York and the city's history? What's an Art Deco building that you think maybe is less known and you'd like people to know about it and appreciate it? The number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We're commemorating 100 years of Art Deco. My guest is architectural historian Francis Morrone. Let's talk about this Paris exhibition. What was so radical about this exposition in 1925?

Francis Morrone: It's just a slight misnomer, I think, that Art Deco began at this moment. That exposition in Paris was really a summing up of trends that had been in place since about 1910 or so, but it was a big gala affair of French state-sponsored exposition. Think World's Fair, only this was just design. It's not like it was celebrating French agriculture and manufacturing. It was about design. At the time, specifically, the French government was really worried in the aftermath of World War I that they were losing their global leadership as the producer of luxury goods. France had always dominated that field. The exposition was really meant to promote French designers to the world, and it did so.

The designers were encouraged to be experimental and try to come up with the new thing, just like they do in the fashion world. A lot of them were doing really interesting things. What came out of it wasn't just Art Deco. In fact, it was at that exposition that the modernist architect Le Corbusier first exhibited his plan, a dreadful plan for demolishing the Marais section of Paris and replacing it with high rise apartment buildings. It was more diverse than we think. There was a lot of different kinds of stuff. The French artists who participated in that exposition also thereafter did work in New York City. Their works can be seen. Some of it is some of the most delightful building decoration that we have in New York.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a couple of calls. These are interesting. Marlene is calling in from Monroe Township, New Jersey. Hi, Marlene. Thank you for making the time to call All Of It today.

Marlene: Thank you. My comment is that Art Deco is Rhapsody in Blue by Gershwin in the form of a building.

Francis Morrone: I think that's very well put. I like that a lot. Another term that was sometimes used for Art Deco back in the day before the term Art Deco was invented was Jazz Modern. Jazz, of course, was the ascendant music at the time. Some people felt that the new modern style in architecture was a kind of architectural equivalent of jazz. I like the Rhapsody in Blue analogy, particularly because that was such a New York piece of music.

Alison Stewart: After the break, we're going to talk about some of the architecture and decoration, Art Deco decoration, in New York City. Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Do you have favorite example of Art Deco architecture or design in New York City? We'll have more with Francis Morrone after a quick break. This is All Of It.

[music]

Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. We're commemorating 100 years of Art Deco and discussing the most notable Art Deco landmarks in New York, and we are taking your calls. My guest is architectural historian Francis Morrone. Let's talk about a few of these. Let's go to Brooklyn, the main branch of the Brooklyn Public Library, and Grand Army Plaza. It opened in 1941. What is Art Deco about this building?

Francis Morrone: It's a very interesting story. They actually began many years before that to build a Brooklyn public library on that site, which was going to be in a very grand, classical style that mated well with the triumphal arch that's in the middle of Grand Army Plaza. In a way that's really oddly typical of Brooklyn, they ran out of money, and it just remained a hole in the ground for several decades. Brooklyn has a history of holes in the ground. When they finally had the funds to build the public library, times had changed, taste had changed. It was 1937. They completed in '41, but they began it in '37.

They had to make use of the foundations that were already dug. The architect was a little bit limited in what he was able to do, but he nonetheless did something that was very clean. The word that we sometimes use is streamlined that very clean, curvy, you might even think of words like aerodynamic design. It has that ornamentation that we associate with Art Deco. In the earlier bazaar classical architecture of New York, think of a building like the New York Public Library, the ornamentation is very heavily modeled ornamentation, very three-dimensional, whereas, in Art Deco, it's often much flatter and always very stylized.

We see that in the Brooklyn Public Library. The interior of it, very-- which is one of the most beautiful modern interior spaces-- the catalog room of that library, one of the most beautiful modern interiors in New York, in my opinion, is very Scandinavian, what we call Scandinavian Modern, which became popular in home furnishings in the 1960s, but in architecture dates back to the earlier 20th century. That was one of the influences on Art Deco. That's the thing that I think is most important to point out about what we call Art Deco is that it turned out to be a way of doing architecture that admitted an almost infinite number of influences from sources around the world, including non-Western sources.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Charles from the Upper West Side. Hi, Charles. Thank you so much for calling WNYC.

Charles: Thank you. Glad you're back at the wheel, Alison. You're unique. I'm going to give you three things that I like very much. First of all, the Chrysler Building has real diamonds melted in the stainless steel of the sphere. If you ever follow the sun going around it, it's the brightest thing in New York City because of that. As the layers go down, and it protrudes out with the different ornaments and eagle heads, they're real diamonds melted in the eagle heads. The other building I like is the General Electric Building, which is behind [unintelligible 00:13:15]. That's Art Deco.

What I really want to say is that Lincoln Center, Noguchi, the sculptor, designed the entranceway in the Art Deco style that's classical, because he's normally not-- he's abstract. For Associated Press. I don't know if your visitor has ever seen Associated Press at Rockefeller Center. That entranceway is designed by Noguchi. If you want to see him do figurative stuff and typewriters and newspapers, it's all in the facade of the entranceway. Thanks for giving me the moment.

Francis Morrone: Thank you. Yes, indeed. I'm very familiar with the Associated Press Building and with Rockefeller Center as a whole. That piece by Noguchi is indeed a wonderful piece of Art Deco, what we could call Art Deco decoration. Again, remember, he wouldn't have called it Art Deco when he did it.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Marilyn from Caldwell. Hi, Marilyn. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Marilyn: Thank you, and thank you for the opportunity to honor my beloved uncle, Israel L. Krausman, who was featured in Who's Who in the Bronx. He built many, many, many apartment buildings up and down the Grand Concourse. They were featured with Art Deco, chrome inset doors, murals in the lobby. The entranceway was set back, and they were either rounded or squared off side to the building. I lived in one of them at 315 East 196th Street. He also built the Bronx Courthouse, and he built the Avalon and two other theaters in the Bronx.

There's such a distinct style that whenever I meet somebody for the Bronx, I say, "Tell me what your apartment building looks like." It always turns out that it was one of my uncle's. He featured a sunken living room, sunken by two steps, which I used to ride my tricycle down. They were glorious, glorious buildings. I'm just so very proud of him and have the moment to honor him.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in. I was going to ask you about the Fish buildings. I don't know if this is her uncle's. I'm not sure if it is, right?

Francis Morrone: Right. Yes. The Grand Concourse is an Art Deco showplace. It's a great example of how the style filtered down. It started out as something that was very high style, and then gradually over the years, not immediately, but after a few years, it became a style that was used for middle-class apartment buildings in all five boroughs of New York. There are wonderful examples to be found literally in all five boroughs, but the Grand Concourse has some of the best, as the caller said.

The Fish Building, as it's locally called, I think it's 1150 Grand Concourse by an architect named Horace Ginsbern. It has mosaic decoration on the front of it that is just mind-boggling. It's almost surreal. We can see, again, just how Art Deco was able to admit so many different influences. The Grand Concourse was probably the most distinguished place to live in the Bronx at one time fell on hard times, but it's nice to see that today people are really interested in it. A lot of the buildings have been renovated, and it's a great place to visit.

Alison Stewart: This text says, "Favorite Art Deco building in New York City, the GE Building on Lexington at '50s. Also to sum up Art Deco in a word, glamorous." This is Michael from the Upper West Side. "Francis, help resolve an ongoing debate among devotees of the Upper West Side real estate. San Remo or El Dorado, which is Emery Roth's true Art Deco masterpiece?"

Francis Morrone: I think it's the Normandy on Riverside Drive.

Alison Stewart: Whoa. Take that.

[laughter]

Francis Morrone: If I had to choose between the San Remo and the El Dorado, I would take the El Dorado.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about Marine Air Terminal at LaGuardia Airport. It's Terminal A at LaGuardia. Beautiful space for everybody who's traveled through it. What do you experience when you walk into the terminal?

Francis Morrone: Nowadays, it's just a terminal for regional flights. What I love about it is the way that moment in history, not only the Art Deco architecture of the terminal, but the fact that it was built not to serve ordinary airplanes, but seaplanes, which just seems like such a 1930s, '40s thing that we don't really have anymore. It's that whole historical moment that is conjured by that building, and the architecture of it helps us to feel that. It's a building I love. I love the mural inside, which was done by a painter who was actually associated with the Abstract Expressionists in New York but did something a little bit different from that for the interior of that building.

Alison Stewart: This text says, "What style is the Verizon Building?"

Francis Morrone: The Verizon Building, I presume he means the one which is on West Street-

Alison Stewart: Oh, that one.

Francis Morrone: -140 West Street. There are about 50 buildings in New York called the Verizon Building. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: He's talking about Walker Tower, perhaps?

Francis Morrone: Yes. Ralph Walker was a great New York architect who was one of the earliest architects and possibly the first skyscraper architect to adopt elements of what we would call Art Deco. He was also an architect who had a particular expertise in designing these very complicated telecommunications buildings. All the wiring and whatnot, you needed an architect who had specialty in that area.

He was Verizon-- they weren't Verizon then. They were the New York Telephone Company. Then he was their architect. He designed all their buildings, from very modest neighborhood buildings to their big towers in Manhattan. The first and most famous of his buildings was at 140 West Street at Barclay Street. That's a fantastic building.

Alison Stewart: Oh, it's beautiful.

Francis Morrone: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Oh, it is.

Francis Morrone: Before the World Trade Center was built, it really dominated the skyline down there. Has a beautiful lobby, which-- again, I think it should be said that if you want to experience Art Deco at its very best, go inside. Go inside the lobbies of these office buildings, not something that it's as easy to do today as it once was because of security concerns. God knows, if you try to take a photograph, they might shoot first, ask questions later, but I still do it. I go in, I take the photo, and I run.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: You should check out 1 Wall Street, check out the Chrysler Building, you can check out 30 Rock. In our last minute, some place for someone who loves Art Deco that they should check out. They might not be thinking about it.

Francis Morrone: I would say the Madison Belmont Building, which is on the southeast corner of Madison Avenue and 34th Street. You'd think that a building that was right in the middle of Midtown Manhattan would be a little bit better known. It has these fantastic iron grills over the building's two entrances, one entrance on Madison, one entrance on 34th Street, there by Edgar Brandt, a French designer who was very prominent at the exposition, and somewhat better known, but not to be missed, Radio City Music Hall.

Alison Stewart: We've been commemorating 100 years of Art Deco. My guest has been architectural historian Francis Morrone. Thank you for your calls, and thank you for your time.

Francis Morrone: Thank you.