David Furst: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm David Furst, in for Alison Stewart. Family recipes can be a timeless way to connect with loved ones. For some people, those recipes are so important, they follow them to their grave. Rosie Grant is the creator of Ghostly Archive on TikTok and Instagram, where, for years, she has been building an archive of recipes that she finds on gravestones. The project got its start in part from a gravestone in Green-Wood Cemetery in Brooklyn. That was the first time Rosie saw a recipe etched on a headstone at the grave site of a former postal clerk named Naomi Odessa Miller Dawson. The recipe was for spritz cookies.

You can find Naomi's recipe and her story in Rosie Grant's new book, To Die For: A Cookbook of Gravestone Recipes, which features 40 recipes etched in stone and the stories of the people who made them. Joining us now to talk about it is Rosie Grant. Welcome to All Of It. Are you there?

Rosie Grant: Hello?

David Furst: Oh, hey. Welcome to All Of It. Tell us about recipes on gravestones. Most of us have probably never heard or seen a recipe on a gravestone before, but this is obviously a thing. Can you tell us the history behind them? Oh. Oh, let's see if we can get sounds like maybe we lost Rosie on the connection. We're going to see if we can get her back on the line right now as we're talking about the work of Rosie Grant. She is the creator of Ghostly Archive on TikTok and Instagram. She has been building this really incredible archive of recipes that she finds on gravestones, and yet all started from a gravestone that she saw in Green-Wood Cemetery in Brooklyn, the first time she saw a recipe on a headstone.

We're going to be speaking with-- see if we can get Rosie Grant. Rosie, are you with us? Oh, we're still calling her right back. You could check out her new book. It's called To Die For: A Cookbook of Gravestone Recipes. It features 40 recipes that are etched in stone. We're going to ask her about some of those recipes in just a moment. If we'd like to hear from you, if you have a recipe that you would like to share, you could call us at 212-433-WNYC. Maybe you even know of a tombstone that has a recipe on it. The number to call, 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. I think we are here with Rosie Grant. Are you there?

Rosie Grant: Hello. Yes, I am.

David Furst: Hey, thank you for joining us today here on All Of It. Most of us have probably never seen a gravestone recipe before, but this is obviously a thing. Can you tell us the history behind them?

Rosie Grant: Yes. Well, it's a pretty recent history as far as the history of American epitaphs and gravestone recipes. The first one that I learned about was actually in Brooklyn, New York. It's the grave of a woman named Naomi Odessa Miller Dawson, who has a spritz cookie recipe on her gravestone. There's a few other women as well, who were buried in the late '90s, early 2000s, and they put these recipes that had belonged to them that they'd shared with loved ones. Then others were inspired. Some people, just on their own, decided it was a good idea for their loved ones.

David Furst: How much of a recipe, by the way, can you fit on a gravestone?

Rosie Grant: Great question. Not a very long one. You might notice, as you look through the book, there are quite a few baked goods. I think they're a little bit more forgiving. You don't need as much instruction, less of the very lengthy lasagna recipes, or anything like that. Some people got creative. A couple of people just left out some instructions. There's one person who even says, "If it tastes like mine, it tastes right." That's kind of the guiding force.

David Furst: [laughs] Now, these recipes, are they put there by request of the deceased or by their families? How does it work?

Rosie Grant: Great question. A little bit of both. In some cases, it was the person themselves that requested it. There are actually three women who are still alive that have done preplanning. I actually got to ask them, "Why did you decide to do this?" In the case of one woman who's named Peggy, she has her gravestone up in Arkansas, but she's still alive and well. She said she was really proud of this cookie recipe that she would share with her family. Her kids would go to school with these cookies, and the teachers would always ask for the recipe, and her friends and neighbors always asked for it.

Then, in the case of some other family members, the person had passed away, and they were trying to think of, "How do we sum up this person who hosted every holiday, and they were known for showing love through food?" In that case, it was usually their kids or grandkids who had the idea to use their recipe.

David Furst: We mentioned this earlier, but that first gravestone recipe that you ever saw was here in New York City in Green-Wood Cemetery. Can you tell us more about that recipe?

Rosie Grant: Oh, my gosh, it's wonderful. If you go to Green-Wood Cemetery, which is such a beautiful cemetery, very welcoming to the public, they do a lot of programming and educational events. If you walk up to Naomi's grave, it looks like an open cookbook, and there's no instructions. It's just the ingredients to her spritz cookie recipe. Naomi was born and raised Brooklyn. She was a fantastic cook and worked for the post office. The joke in her family was her son would bring her cookies to holiday parties, and everyone would ask for the recipe, and he would always say, "You can ask for it, but she's not going to give it to you." This was like a secret recipe that she took to the grave.

David Furst: Oh, my goodness. Literally.

Rosie Grant: Literally, yes. [laughs] Of course, she gave her blessing at the very end. It was her son's idea, buying this open book pedestal where you might write some spiritual quote or something like that. Honestly, in some people's lives, what's more spiritual than food? She did give her blessing, but there's a little bit of a nod to the secret because it didn't have the instructions for her cookies on it.

David Furst: That's an incredible story. You can find that recipe in your book?

Rosie Grant: Yes, it's the very first one. I met with her son Richard, who, again, this was his idea to do this. A little bit of the story of cooking the recipe of hers with him.

David Furst: Rosie Grant, we're speaking with right now, and the author of the book I'm talking about. It's called To Die For: A Cookbook of Gravestone Recipes. When did you decide to start trying to make these recipes?

Rosie Grant: Well, I was interning at a cemetery like you do in--

David Furst: Like you do. This was at Green-Wood Cemetery?

Rosie Grant: Like you do. This is at Congressional Cemetery in Washington, D.C. I was working on a library science degree, so I needed an internship at an archive somewhere. Very height of quarantine during the pandemic. Most archives were closed to new students, but cemeteries, unfortunately, were busier than ever. I interned in the archives of Congressional Cemetery in D.C., and I'd started a TikTok account about what's it like to intern at a cemetery? I was learning about the stories and different memorials, and I was featuring different people that I just--

For me, I had no idea how creative people were with their gravestones. I was used to the like memento mori or the classic epitaph of mother, father, death dates, birth dates. Then, when I learned about Naomi up in Green-Wood, of her recipe on a gravestone, I was so blown away about this idea.

David Furst: I want to get back to some of the recipes that you found in just a moment. If you do want to join this conversation, give us a call. 212-433-9692. You can tell us about your family recipes, your family. Is there a dish that your parents or your grandparents or your sibling, cousin, some distant relative, or non-family loved one used to make? Tell us about it and about them. You don't have to remember the whole recipe. Just call in or text us. 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC.

Rosie Grant, do you have a favorite recipe that you have discovered from gravestones?

Rosie Grant: Oof. They're all my favorites. They're all so good, and each story is so different. Definitely, the ones that I make the most frequently, I make Naomi spritz cookies a lot. They're so good. They're very fun to press through a cookie press. Other ones that I make a lot are ones that I myself am nostalgic to. I grew up with snickerdoodle cookies that my mom would make for me. There's a snickerdoodle cookie recipe of a woman named Annabell who's buried in California. She was a volunteer firefighter with her husband. Her daughter talks about the volunteer firefighters gathering in the kitchen. They're in the redwoods area. Forest fires are definitely no joke. They would feed these cookies, amongst other things, to the other volunteer firefighters. I both love the story of that, but then also they're really good cookies. [laughs]

David Furst: They're really good cookies. That's awesome. The snickerdoodle cookie is another one. Are any of the recipes that you have discovered from a gravestone, or any of them, really, really bad?

Rosie Grant: Honestly, all of them have been good. None of them are that-

David Furst: That's a relief.

Rosie Grant: -complicated. If anything, the biggest challenge was if I couldn't find all of the instructions. With each recipe, the biggest leg of the project was, of course, connecting with the families, getting their permission, and then, of course, getting their stories. With each one, there was, in particular, the one that I struggled with the most, truly, just because I had never made it before, was a fudge recipe from a woman named Kay in Utah. It's a great recipe. Fudge is delicious. She was so prolific at making this. The first time I made it, it was definitely not as good as Kay's.

[laughter]

David Furst: Hey, if you want to call in, you can, and maybe tell us a recipe that you would put on your own gravestone. 212-433-9692. When you started this project, how much baking experience did you have?

Rosie Grant: I had a limited. I would say I was more of an eater than a cook myself. Very classic one potato. I will say I was an English major. I went to James Madison University in Virginia, and I did creative writing as a minor, and my focus was food writing, so I loved food storytelling and food memoirs. When you get a master's in library science, you can focus on public libraries, but my focus was on archives. I was very inspired by archiving projects and especially recipe archiving. Every family has their own recipes and things that you grew up with, that is just a taste of home. I think all of those things together I was inspired by.

Definitely, I've learned a lot about cooking in the process. I'd never made ice cream before. I'd never made fudge before. I now own four cookie presses to try to get closer to Naomi's cookies. My kitchen has definitely exploded with objects for cooking since the project started.

David Furst: I love it. It's such a roundabout way, right, to get into cooking.

Rosie Grant: Yes.

David Furst: I want to also talk about how maybe what led you down this path. Your parents are ghost tour guides in Virginia, is that right?

Rosie Grant: Yes, that's correct.

David Furst: How do you think they shaped your relationship with death and cemeteries?

Rosie Grant: I think growing up with them, even before they became ghost tour guides and historical tour guides, we went to cemetery tours frequently. Even when I walked home from high school, I would walk through my local cemetery as a shortcut. It was very open to the public. There are dog walkers and people just passing through, so I never found them very scary places. At least the cemeteries that I grew up near were very welcoming to people. I think we grew up in a sense of this cultural taboo around death. Even people hold their breath when they drive past cemeteries and that sort of thing.

I think it made me appreciate of the life that exists in a cemetery and the historical importance. If anything, it's good to visit your local cemetery. Of course, follow the rules, be respectful, but they are very much for the living to go and think about people we've lost.

David Furst: We're speaking with Rosie Grant, talking about your book, To Die For: A Cookbook of Gravestone Recipes. You write about something called the Death Positive Movement. Can you talk about what that is?

Rosie Grant: Yes, that was something I was unfamiliar with before the project started. It began with hospice nurses, not even that long ago. It's just this idea that talking about death with loved ones is not only healthy as individuals, it's healthier for society. That might look like something of how do you want to be remembered, and talking about that with your partner or your siblings or your parents. Do you want to be buried in the cemetery? Do you want something else? Do you want to have your favorite song played at your funeral? Yes, of course, do you want a recipe served? That's how people remember you for.

It doesn't really matter what the answer is, but it is really healthy to talk about these things, even if it's kind of uncomfortable. I think for the gravestone recipe project, for me, it's made death so much more accessible because it's really hard to be like, "Yes, we'll all die someday." If anything, it's good to be like, "How do you want to be remembered and celebrated, whether through a meal or otherwise?"

David Furst: Can we talk about one more New York recipe? This is from Roberta Jackson. Can you tell us about Roberta and this recipe?

Rosie Grant: Oh, my gosh, I love this recipe so much. Well, her daughter Sharon is actually this wonderful food writer. We had gotten connected because she wrote this essay about her mother, who was a fabulous travel agent, loved traveling, loved food. This particular recipe, or kasha varnishke. She lived in New York and was buried just outside of New York in a Jewish cemetery. The kasha varnishke is, in general, delicious. I'd never had them before. It was based on an inscription that she had sent to her daughter the first time her daughter was living abroad. It was her first time making them without her mom. Her mom writes out the instructions and sends it to her kid. The way that it ends with, "Does it taste like mine? It does, good," was such an impactful part of the recipe that she included that in the instructions on the gravestone itself.

David Furst: Rosie Grant, you include your own gravestone recipe in this collection, To Die For: A Cookbook of Gravestone Recipes. A little premature?

Rosie Grant: Yes, a little premature, but no time like the present. [laughs]

David Furst: Well, tell us. Tell us about your gravestone recipe, and will you actually perhaps use it?

Rosie Grant: My husband and I have had this discussion, and it's been a really healthy exercise. It's not like we won't die someday. This idea of like we often treat death as a failure rather than something that it's like, "No, I'm excited to think about these things." I have been working with Congressional Cemetery, where I first interned, to be potentially interred, two different words, at one point.

David Furst: Tell us the recipe. We're just about out of time.

Rosie Grant: Oh, my gosh. It's a clam linguine, and it's just a nostalgic dish that I grew up with. He's from Maine. It's just something that I grew up loving and still to this day love to serve to dinner guests.

David Furst: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that clam linguine. The new cookbook celebrates family recipes taken to the grave. Rosie Grant, thank you so much for joining us today.

Rosie Grant: Thank you so much for having me. This is such an honor.

David Furst: Again, it's called To Die For: A Cookbook of Gravestone Recipes. That is All Of It for today. Character actor Carol Kane lives with her 98-year-old mother on the Upper West Side. A new documentary spotlights down day in their lives. Coming up on the show tomorrow, director Nathan Silver, Carol, and Joy Kane join us to discuss Carol & Joy. That is coming up tomorrow on All Of It. Thanks for listening. This is WNYC.