Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios here in SoHo. Thank you for spending your day with us. We're really grateful that you're here. On today's show, the indie folk band Lord Huron is here in-studio. They will perform songs from their new album, The Cosmic Selector, Volume 1. Author Stephanie Wambugu will be here to talk about her debut novel. It's called Lonely Crowds, and we'll learn about the early life of Mike Tyson with Mark Kriegel, author of Baddest Man: The Making of Mike Tyson. That is our plan. Let's get this started with actor, writer, and now, director, Eva Victor.

[MUSIC - All Of It Interlude Jingle]

In the new movie, Sorry, Baby, something has happened to Agnes. We don't actually see what happened, but we hear Agnes recall it, in step-by-step detail, that she was sexually assaulted by her grad school professor. We also see how it affects her life; not so much upending it, but causing her to get stuck. She gets stuck in the same town, working at the same school, living in the same house, not really moving forward with her life. At one point, she says she can't imagine herself old.

In between the heaviness, there's a lot of humor. The New York Times calls the film "Wryly and tartly funny, as well as the kind of independent movie that can seem like a gift." Sorry, Baby is the feature directorial debut from Eva Victor, who also wrote it and stars as Agnes. Victor is a writer and comedian who gained a devoted following on social media sites like Instagram. That's where filmmaker Barry Jenkins followed them and eventually reached out to offer to produce their very first film.

Sorry, Baby is currently in theaters. Listeners, this conversation will deal with sexual assault, so if you need help or someone to talk to, the National Sexual Assault Hotline number is 800-656-HOPE. Eva, it is really nice to talk to you.

Eva Victor: It's so nice to talk to you. I can't believe I'm on the radio.

Alison: I know, being on the radio is fun.

Eva: There's nothing like it. I'm feeling so alive.

Alison: I'm glad to hear it. When did you write this film?

Eva: I wrote this film in 2021. I sequestered myself in a little cabin in Maine, and I knew I wanted to write something about trying to heal from a really bad thing. I wanted to decenter violence and speak to the things that keep you going, like a good friend, a good sandwich, a sweet cat. It was a real time of just sitting down, locking in, and writing privately.

Alison: The cat, the sandwich, and the good friend all feature in the film.

Eva: Yes.

[laughter]

Alison: What was special about Maine?

Eva: The thing about the East Coast that I think is so special is, it can skew romantic and cozy and old and like a little nest, and it can also skew horrific, and being able to play along that spectrum of tone was really meaningful to me. It feels ancient, but it feels like, also, there's secrets. I really enjoyed being able to play with that in the film and have a cottage feel like the cottage in The Holiday, in moments in that film, and then also have it feel like a house of horrors in moments when the character is feeling scared or when the character is feeling safe. It felt like the right setting for a film that deals with many, many feelings.

Alison: When you were writing this film, when did you realize, "Yes, Agnes, it's me. I'm the actor"?

Eva: [chuckles] When you write it, you never think it's going to get made, so I wrote it with my-- It's very interesting because as people talk to me about the film, they're like, "Agnes is so awkward," and I'm like, "Well, I didn't know that. That wasn't totally something I understood, but thank you for letting me know."

I think I wrote it with my voice in mind, but that was always on the table. I was always saying I'd want to play this role. This means a lot to me, and it took me a little longer to figure out, "Okay, yes, I am wanting to direct this, I just have to prepare to do this because I've never done it before." That was a little bit more of a challenge to wrap my head around, but then once I did, once I realized I desperately wanted to direct it, I felt I just had to learn how to do that. I quickly wanted to do it.

Alison: Were you frightened to do it?

Eva: Of course. I'm frightened of many, many things. Yes, I was scared. I think the main thing I was worried about is, the story means so much to me, and I didn't want to sacrifice anything. I didn't want something to be forgotten because I was taking on too much. That led me to prepare a great, great deal for two years to be ready to do both things. I had a huge, amazing team of brilliant people supporting me and doing it, and understanding that the task was big, and so people were very game to help me when I couldn't see or couldn't be somewhere. It took a big group to make it work.

Alison: What's an example of being prepared? That you knew you had to be prepared?

Eva: I storyboarded the whole film, every image, and I shadowed a good friend, Jane Schoenbrun, while they were shooting their film, I saw the TV glow. That was a huge help in learning how a set runs. They are an incredibly confident filmmaker and a visionary, and it was really nice to just ingest some of the ripple effects of what it looks like when someone's doing what they're meant to do in that way.

Me and my DP prepared the film and shot-listed for basically years beforehand. I had amazing producers who were very interested in helping me get ready to direct the film as I wanted to. I was very lucky with that.

Alison: I'm speaking to Eva Victor, director, writer, and star of the film Sorry, Baby. It's in theaters now. The cast is great. Chemistry is really important in this film, right?

Eva: Yes.

Alison: You have Lucas Hedges, who's the sweet guy who has a crush on Agnes, and Naomi Ackie, who's your best friend. Capital "Best." How did those actors come aboard?

Eva: Naomi Ackie is, I think, the best actor we have. We met, and I felt, immediately, like I was in love with her, and I wanted her to like me. I just thought she was so warm and so smart and just so special. Then we read together, and there was this sort of magical thing that happened where it just felt like these people locked into place.

I always said Agnes, to me, is the moon, and Lydie is the sun, so we were looking for the sun. She is just the warmest, kindest, most patient, beautiful, most vulnerable actor ever. It luckily just felt like fireworks immediately, and that never felt hard. It was very easy with her. I feel so lucky because it takes a very particular person to trust a first-time filmmaker, because they have no proof this person can do it. It takes a very special actor and a very brave actor to jump in and give themself to a first-time filmmaker. Lucas, I mean, he's a legend. I wrote him a very long letter and thanked-- [crosstalk]

Alison: He hasn't been in a lot of things recently, and I thought it was really interesting.

Eva: He's very picky. Yes, he has impeccable taste. I feel so lucky that he said yes, and he understood it. I think the role fit him like a glove, and it was such a joy. I got to work with him for five days; it wasn't enough. It was so joyful. Yes.

Alison: The film shows what her life is like during this three-year period, and it's at different points in her life. It's not linear. Why did you choose that format?

Eva: I wanted the film to start with this explosion of friendship, and I wanted to let the audience in on that kind of intimate, romantic joy that two friends have together. I think in talking about this kind of trauma, we as people tend to flatten people who've been through this kind of experience, I think, without meaning to. We paint people as tragic figures when we know that this is what's happened to them because, I think, we're afraid that if they're a whole person, that means it could happen to us or someone we love, and I wanted to give Agnes and Lydie this fighting chance at being whole people that you fall in love with.

The film is meant to have a bit of joy in it and to have humor in it, which, for me, feels like a bit of a rebellion against the heaviness of the subject. Starting off with these two people, and hopefully, you feel so connected to them and you feel like they're wrapping you in a big hug, so that when we get into the harder stuff, we see them as these complicated, big people. That meant a lot to me to start there. There are all these little ghosts that you see in the first chapter that maybe don't make sense upon first viewing.

We see pages on a window, we see boots by a door, we see a cat, and we see a sandwich that we don't know where it came from. Hopefully, the audience feels along enough and that they're patient enough to make it to the answers to those ghosts. You get the answers as you watch the film, which felt true to me in terms of how the world works. We never really know what feels heavy to someone and what doesn't, like why do boots feel heavy to this person? We find out later.

I wanted each chapter to function, in a subjective way, for how Agnes is feeling time works in that chapter. There's a jury scene that feels like it's two hours long, because I think Agnes feels very stuck in that moment. Then there's another chapter where many, many things happen. She gets a promotion, and people go through huge life transitions in this one chapter, and I hope that it feels like time is moving in a way that Agnes has experienced time, and the film is reflecting that back to us.

Alison: Let's listen to a clip from Sorry, Baby. This features Agnes and Lucas Hedges as her neighbor Gavin. This is the first time they meet. She's at his house. She's looking for lighter fluid. You'll understand later. This is-- well, you'll understand. Let's listen.

[laughter]

[MOVIE SNIPPET - Sorry, Baby, playback begins]

Agnes: You're my neighbor, right?

Gavin: Yes, I live here.

Agnes: What's your name?

Gavin: Oh, Gavin.

Agnes: Gavin? Nice to meet you.

Gavin: You, too.

Agnes: I'm Agnes.

Gavin: Lamb of God.

Agnes: What?

Gavin: That's nothing. It's all good. I'm just-- What are you up to this fine evening?

Agnes: Oh, I was wondering, do you have, like, stuff that makes a fire?

Gavin: Oh, matches?

Agnes: No. Like a liquid. Is that a thing?

Gavin: Oh, yes, lighter fluid.

Agnes: Yes. Do you have that?

Gavin: Yes. Why do you need it?

Agnes: My friends and I, we're going to make, like, hot dogs.

Gavin: Oh, hot dogs sounds good.

Agnes: Oh, I'm sorry. We only bought two hot dogs.

Gavin: Oh, no, that's no problem. I have dinner plans with my mom. That's not true. I'm sorry. I just wanted to close myself off from the possibility of being rejected.

Agnes: That's no problem.

Gavin: Oh, I've got lighter fluid.

[MOVIE SNIPPET - Sorry, Baby, playback ends]

Alison: There's so much going on. There's so much going on in that film, and that scene.

Eva: I can't believe we listened to it. I've never just listened to it without the-- Yes, it's very interesting. It's like a play.

Alison: Oh. What did you think when you heard it?

Eva: It's interesting. It's just the dialogue, clean dialogue. It's interesting. Thank you for sharing it.

Alison: You know what? When we look for films, when we look for movie clips, we have to find those times when you can really understand what's happening without a visual.

Eva: Yes, of course. You guys do it all. Good work.

Alison: Thank you. [chuckles] What did you want us to understand about the tone of the film from that passage?

Eva: Agnes and Gavin, that little relationship functions, to me, as a bit of a rom-com amidst the drama. I think the film is meant to be quite loving, and it's meant to be funny, and I hope that, I think, we are talking a lot about the heaviness of the film. I spent a lot of time trying to consider how my audience would feel watching the film and make specific choices to try to prevent their body from feeling shocked and scared.

I made the film for a version of myself that I think desperately needed a film that talked about these big feelings, but didn't show me something that was so devastating that it sent my body into shock and made me shut down. There are many moments in the film that are meant to keep you there and keep you present, and keep you feeling safe so that you can enjoy it and hear the film for what it is.

I like that I got to give the main character this neighbor who's very loving and very much like a little puppy dog, who is obsessed and also can't always read the room, but is purely kind. Yes, it's nice to hear a little bit of that today.

Alison: I'm speaking to Eva Victor. She's the director, writer, and star of the film Sorry, Baby, which is in theaters now. I have a question for Eva, the writer. You refer to it as "the bad thing" that happens to her, or something bad happens to Agnes?

Eva: Yes.

Alison: Why was that the language you wanted to use?

Eva: Yes, it's interesting because, honestly, I've talked to some male reporters about this, and some people's take about it is that they think Agnes isn't ready to use the real words for it, and that that's a sign of denial. I feel the exact opposite about it. I feel like Lydie and Agnes have very thoughtfully created their own language around it that keeps them feeling safe while talking about it, and I think that talking about it and saying "the bad thing" is a way to protect each other through conversations about it.

It's the language that makes them feel like it's their own special little thing, and the only person in the film that betrays that language, the film establishes, is this cruel doctor who uses words that feel very sharp. For me, it's another way that they're creating a bubble of safety for each other, and I think the words we have, the language is quite limiting. It feels very scary and very clinical, in a lot of ways, and I wanted the two best friends to find their way through it in a way that they're talking about Agnes's experience of the bad thing. It's not this desensitized, clinical term. It's their experience of what happened, and it's very particular and personal.

Alison: Yes, it's interesting. Naomi's character is like, "Have a seat, Doctor." [chuckles]

Eva: I know. She's amazing.

Alison: It's such a good scene.

Eva: It was a really fun scene to shoot. Despite it being quite heavy, it was very fun. We had a laughing attack during it, which was inappropriate, but it's the way through is the way through.

Alison: Something that I appreciated as a viewer was that we don't necessarily see the assault. We see the house from afar, going through all of the different times of day. You go in and you come out much later. We see the light get dark, we see-- It was very affecting.

Eva: Thank you.

Alison: Why did you choose to go that route? There are many different ways you could have shown that assault; why'd you go that route?

Eva: Yes. I knew, coming into the film, that I was never going to show that. It just was, part of the reason I wrote the film was to say, "Can we not see that and maintain dramatic tension and feel everything we need to feel without it being super triggering?" I also couldn't make sense of the idea that, "Okay, so if there's a camera in that house, whose eyes are those? Are we watching from some objective perspective?"

That didn't make sense to me. Then the idea of doing something from a POV just was never something I wanted to do because it's too intense and too painful, and it wasn't what my heart wanted. The reason I chose to shoot it that way is because I do think, in our world, we very rarely get to be behind the closed-door. We hear what people have to say about what they experienced, and that's what we get. That's one of the reasons it really meant a lot to me, that the film believes Agnes's words without having to see it. I wanted to make a film that believes in her experience of that time. Yes, I also think it felt cruel. It felt cruel to be ahead of Agnes at any point.

I wanted us to be emotionally with her and not ahead of her. I wanted her to be able to share what happened to her when she feels safe, which is with Lydie in this bathtub, but not before that. We shouldn't know something she doesn't know. Yes, the ethos of the film exists in that image. We spent a lot of time-- me and my DP, Mia Cioffi Henry, spent a lot of time figuring out her travel back to her house and how to keep her face concealed, and to just have this big moment of vulnerability when we finally see her face, and that is when she feels safe. We were trying to take care of her through that time.

Alison: What do you think happens to Agnes?

Eva: In the future?

Alison: Yes. You know, or in the film? Is she stuck? Does she not want to remember? Does she only want to remember sometimes? Is she cut off from feeling? What happens to her?

Eva: I think she's moving at a pace that is glacial, and that's all she can do. I think the idea that she survives in a daily way is quite heroic for me. It was a real choice and joy to be able to give Lydie this explosion of experience in these five years. She goes from not knowing she's queer to bursting to New York and being who she is.

Then she gets to have this manifestation of this love in this physical way, and she has so much happen. That, to me, was exciting to give her that kind of love story, but then also, side by side with Agnes, it highlights Agnes is seriously trying to get through today. The image of the film I always had before we made it was Agnes as this person who's staring out of a window, looking outside, and two things are true at once, which is that she desperately wants to leave and be a part of the world, but she desperately wants to stay inside and not engage because it's too much out there.

I think many things are happening at once, but it's about she does get up and she does do her things, and she has moments of real joy and relief amongst the hard moments. That is, I guess, what it is to be here. [chuckles] I'm trying to figure it out, still.

Alison: I have to ask about this woman, Natasha, in the film.

Eva: Yes, sure. Let's go.

Alison: [chuckles] Natasha is a grad school cohort who is so wildly jealous of Agnes and of everything. She's just jealous, period.

Eva: Yes.

Alison: That is how you would describe her. How did Natasha's jealousy help us understand Agnes a little better?

Eva: I do believe Natasha is a mirror, as are many people in the film, but I think we all are her. I think we all have her in us, and she happens to be Agnes's Natasha, but Agnes is a Natasha to someone. We all are Natasha, I think. Yes, I think, hopefully, what happens in the film is that you see this person and you're like, "Man, she is not functioning in the way that she needs to function."

She is distancing people-- Natasha, I mean, and she is totally jealous and acting totally bizarre. Then we get this moment, later on into the film, where, hopefully, a bit of complexity opens itself up to us and we understand a bit how she got to be so weird, because she's been having to function and had her own experience with this professor that we get a little moment of insight into. I hope that it feels like we've been judging someone for how they're acting, and really, they are going through something as well, just alongside Agnes, and Agnes is who we are looking at.

If we moved the world, Natasha would be the hero, and that always meant a lot to me. Kelly McCormack took that role and just flew with it. Her outfits are all Kelly and Emily, the costume designer. I wrote the role in inspiration-- there's a character in Three Sisters named Natasha-- Chekhov's Three Sisters that I love, that was such a deliciously devastating character. Then also in Singin' in the Rain, the character of Lina Lamont was also a model.

Alison: Oh, she's my favorite.

Eva: She's the best character we have.

Alison: "And I can't stand him." She's the best.

Eva: "Can't stand him."

Alison: "Can't stand him." [laughs]

Eva: She's just so perfect. There's that scene where she goes into RF's office in Singin' in the Rain, she's like, "It says it right there," in the newspaper, and she's so happy and seeing her smile. Kelly gives us-- [crosstalk]

Alison: "You've got more money than Calvin Coolidge put together. Put together."

Eva: No, she's perfect. There's this moment where Kelly, who plays Natasha, comes into the office, and we finally see her smile, and there's just this intensity to seeing this character smile for the first time. Lina does that, too. Yes, I'm glad you know Lina. It's a very special role. Yes.

Alison: Before I let you go, this is a nice segue into the music from the film. The music is being released on vinyl.

Eva: Yes, it's so exciting. Lia's score is, in my opinion, transcendent, and it completely made the film whole in a way that I could have only dreamed of. Yes, it's coming out on vinyl, and there's notes from me and Lia in it. They put a bunch of their temp tracks in it, so you get a sense of how-- I want to say "the sausage got made," but that doesn't seem like a thing I want to say, but I'm saying it.

There's also a very psychotic voice note that I took when I was driving on a highway, trying to explain something, so you get a lot of insight into it. It's printed on the New England Blue Sky Vinyl, so I'm feeling very excited. Yes

Alison: People can get that soon?

Eva: Yes. I don't know when, but seriously, they're going to get mad at me for not telling them when, but soon, I swear.

Alison: The name of the movie is Sorry, Baby. It's in theaters now. I've been speaking with its writer, director, and star, Ava Victor. Ava, it was really nice talking to you.

Eva: So nice talking to you. Thank you for this.