Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My next guest broke through in 1993 with a hit song from her band, 4 Non Blondes. For 30 years, she has been steeped in the craft of writing and creating music. For another installment of Our Equalizers: Women in Music Production, I'm joined by Linda Perry.

[MUSIC- 4 Non Blondes: What's Up?

And I say, hey-ey-ey

Hey-ey-ey

I said "Hey, what's going on?"

Alison Stewart: 4 Non Blondes released only one album before splitting, although they'll be reuniting this May. After the band, Perry released a series of solo albums and made a shift into production. Since then, Perry has become a major player in the music industry, writing and producing songs for Christina Aguilera, P!nk, Dolly Parton and so many others. She's one of only three women nominated in the 21st Century for the Grammy for Producer of the Year Non-Classical. She got a shout out from Alicia Keys at this year's Grammys.

Alicia Keys: Female producers have always powered the industry. Patrice Rushen, Missy Elliott, Linda Perry.

Alison Stewart: Linda Perry is a songwriter, hall of fame inductee, and the subject of a recent documentary, Linda Perry: Let It Die Here. She's also the co-founder of EqualizeHer, an organization aimed at combating gender inequality in the music industry. We're honored to have her here today. Hey, Linda.

Linda Perry: Hey, how you doing?

Alison Stewart: It's going well, thanks for asking. 4 Non Blondes disbanded around 1994. You released your solo debut in '96, In Flight, which you also co-produced. Why was it important for you to have production credits on that album?

Linda Perry: It wasn't important for me to have production credit. I just happened to done things. That's a weird question. It's like I did the job, why wouldn't I have production on it?

Alison Stewart: It's a fair point. What did you learn?

Linda Perry: Just so you know, I have to correct you on that because it's those kind of questions that women come across all the time. Like, what is it like being a woman producer? What is it like writing as a woman? You know what I mean?

Alison Stewart: I do.

Linda Perry: That's what EqualizeHer is about. Why would you ask me that? I did my job as a producer on the record and I got my co-production because I did my job. There's nothing different about that than any other male or any other person. We have to really define our questions, because when we put those kind of questions out there, you're already giving me a handicap. Like, why did I have to earn that? You Know what I mean?

Alison Stewart: I do.

Linda Perry: Like, why was it important? It's important because I did the job. Why wouldn't I get that credit? It's just little things like that that-- I'm a very outspoken person. I'm obviously very aggressive and very honest, but it's those kind of things, statements that we really have to be aware of as women. That's it.

Alison Stewart: That's all good as far as I'm concerned. There's nothing wrong with being aggressive or having your point. Good on you for responding that way. What did you learn or what did you take away producing for yourself solo as opposed to when you were in a band?

Linda Perry: Well, in a band, I wasn't producing, and I was young. I was just trying to find my way, but I didn't have a lot of skills. I never had been in a studio before, and so I would have not considered myself a producer in that kind of situation, especially when I'm learning. Where I did take the reins, though, is when the actual producer recording the album recorded What's Up? really poorly. It was a bad rendition of it. I didn't like it. I fought against it. I took the band into another studio in San Francisco and produced that track. The version everybody hears, that was actually my first production, but I didn't get credit for that because they thought I was just being a singer in a band and doing my job.

Really, my first production was What's Up? For me, it's been important. Just like anybody should protect what they're creative. No one is going to know exactly what you want to say and how you want your show to go. Only you really, truly know what that is and what it sounds like, what it feels like. How it's going to fulfill your soul and your creativity. If somebody was handing you every single line, every song to play, every little thing, it wouldn't be as enriching in your soul and you're creative. To me, it's extremely important when you have a vision, that you need to control your vision, because only you truly know exactly what it's supposed to be.

Alison Stewart: I'm speaking to singer, songwriter, and producer Linda Perry for our Women's History Month series, Equalizers: Women in Music Production. Let's play a track from In Flight and we can talk about it on the other side. This is Freeway, or maybe we don't have it. Do you remember producing the song Freeway? What Was it about the song that made you realize what you wanted to do with it?

Linda Perry: Yes. With In Flight, Bill Bottrell really was the main-- he was my mentor, my teacher, and he taught me a lot. There were certain fields and certain guitar tones or certain things I wanted, and as a co-collaborator, we worked it out and got it to where that felt emotionally right. Bill is an incredible producer. He was an incredible mentor for me. I learned pretty much everything from him. I consider him really-- he led that production, and I just kept gearing it more towards what I wanted because, again, as a producer, he just came from Sheryl Crow. I didn't want to make a Sheryl Crow record, so I had to make sure that we were staying in Linda Perry and who I was as a creative and as an artist.

That's what you start doing. It's like, "Oh, I don't want that guitar tone. I want this kind of vibe. I want it to be faster. I want it to be slower. I want it to be a bigger impact here. Let's add piano here. I want Fruitloop Daydream. I want it to sound like a player piano. Can we put cello here?" Those are the kind of things. Regarding Freeway, it's just a crazy arrangement as a song. It's a very unusual song. I just wanted it to feel like that. I wanted to feel like I was running down a freeway. I wanted to be open and be bombastic, but I didn't want it to sound folk and I didn't want it to sound rock.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Linda Perry. We're talking to her for our Women's History Month series, Equalizers: Women in Music Production. There was this interview with you in performing songwriter from 2007. It's in the Wayback Machine, but it's an interesting quote. You said, "If it sounds good to me, I keep it, and that's that. That's what makes me a good producer. I'm a really good listener. I'm not looking for perfection." When you're listening, what are you listening for?

Linda Perry: I'm listening for emotion. Great example yesterday, I'm working on this-- finishing. Right now I have five albums I'm working on.

Alison Stewart: Wow.

Linda Perry: Yesterday I was working on Paris Jackson's record, and the guitar player was like, "I can do that again." I'm like, "I'm sure you can, and I'm sure you'll do it better." That take was the right one because it made me feel. I'm constantly looking for something that emotionally moves me. Whether it's a guitar solo, piano tone, the way the singer barely made the note, how they flip the melody, a lyrical phrase that makes me think. The tone of the snare on the drums. It's many things. I just turn knobs, I change snares, I give different guitars, I tell people just to stop approaching it from a thoughtful place.

Just try to open up and be free when you perform, when you play anything, is just be free doing it. Because once we're constricted, I believe we just go in our head and we start thinking things out instead of just feeling them out.

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's interesting. See, you try not to be-- I don't say intellectual's not the right word. You just really try to feel it, it sounds like.

Linda Perry: To me, that's what music is for. Even you can take classical music. Classical music is very, very intellectual. It's very thought out. All the arrangements, but the wrong conductor could turn to their players to look for feel and they didn't have the feel. It's all about feel. Everything about music, everything that we do, I believe, is about feel. We have to approach from our heart and an emotional place. Because when it comes to music, that's what it's all about. That's what it's all about.

I personally don't even understand the point of music if it's not coming from an emotional place. If you're not trying to make a statement emotionally or lyrically or creatively, what's the point? Then you have elevator music. You know what people do with that. You get in an elevator and people make fun of it. It's just like there's no point at all to me.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting. I want to get into some of the artists that you've produced. When you're looking to produce with someone, what does the person need to have or need to be to be a good collaborator for you?

Linda Perry: One, they need to be passionate, dedicated, and have somewhat some talent. I don't even think people really-- To me, talent is a very small part of the equation. I'll take passion over talent any day. You can be an incredible singer, you're best singer in the world, but if you don't have any passion when you're singing, I rather have the kid or the person that is kind of a little out of tune, but man, they're making me feel emotions when they're singing. I'll take that any day. I ask for passion, I ask for honesty, and I ask for commitment. Everything else will come, but those three things, you don't have that, like the drive, the passion, all that, the commitment, then to me, it's a waste of time.

Alison Stewart: Could you tell me a little bit about when you first met P!nk?

Linda Perry: P!nk was definitely hungry to change her destiny in music. When we met, I could tell she was just like, "I don't want to do what I've been doing," which is white girl, R&B. She was very headstrong about making a shift. I warned her, "Just so you know, with me it's going to be very different." I said, "I tell you this, what we do will sell 10 million records." She just looked at me and laughed and she's like, "What?" Because she had maybe sold 2 million records. I said, "This record we're working on is going to sell 10 million records for sure." She just thought I was crazy, but she believed in it. She believed in the process. She did everything that was needed to do to make that record.

Passion, honesty, commitment, and that record sold, I think, 12 million records.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to a little bit from M!ssundaztood, this is Get the Party Started.

[MUSIC- P!nk: Get the Party Started]

I'm comin' up so you better get this party started

I'm comin' up so you better get this party started

Get this party started on a Saturday night

Everybody's waitin' for me to arrive

Sendin' out the message to all of my friends

We'll be lookin' flashy in my Mercedes Benz

I got lotsa style, check my gold diamond rings

I can go for miles if you know what I mean

I'm comin' up so you better get this party started

Alison Stewart: Listening to that song, Linda, can you remember any decision or choice you made that maybe you had a question about, but you knew it was the right one to make?

Linda Perry: About what?

Alison Stewart: About that song. Is there anything that you had.

Linda Perry: Repeat the question.

Alison Stewart: Is there something about the production in that? Some question you had, some choice that you made. You were not sure of it, but it ultimately was the right choice to make?

Linda Perry: That song is a funny one because it was actually written from a perspective of kind of a joke. I probably wrote it in 15 minutes. I had wanted to experience all this new technology people were using, Tridents, MPCs, rolling expansion cards, all this kind of stuff. I basically bought a bunch of gear that was more modern because I have all old analog vintage stuff. I bought all this new gadgets and I set it up. Then first thing I did was get on the MPC and created the beat and I was like, "Oh, that's cool." Then I laid down a bass, I lay down real guitar. Then I went into all the gadgets in the expansion card and in the Trident and started adding weird little noises.

Then I had this groove and then I grabbed Bullet microphone, which is a Harmonica microphone, and I just thought of every cliche thing I could say that was happening in that time, 2000, whatever, and just made up the words on the fly. That's what happened. That was the song that came out and I already knew it was a hit. Then a week later, that's when I met Alicia Moore and I played her the song. She played it to her label and they said, "That's your first single."

Alison Stewart: Wow.

Linda Perry: "Linda, there was absolutely no thought that went [unintelligible 00:17:45]"

Alison Stewart: Sometimes that's the way it rolls. You've recently moved into soundtracks and film scores. Why did you want to move into that?

Linda Perry: Because I feel like that's in my creative to do, I think very cinematic when I write. I come from highs and peaks and lows. The arrangement of my melodies feel very cinematic sometimes. It's something I've always wanted to do to test and to educate myself with. I put it out there in the ether and just said to the universe, "I would like to score film and TV." Then first project I got was about a month later I was asked to score a documentary for Sean Penn called Citizen Penn. Then right after that I got this other documentary on Hulu called Kid 90. Then right after that I got Luckiest Girl Alive on Netflix. Then I got a Disney film, and then I got an Amazon Prime series.

It just kept coming. I scored this movie called To Leslie. That's an incredible, beautiful film. I scored with an out of tune pump organ. It came very natural and I had a wonderful mentor, Susan Jacobs, incredible music supervisor, very powerful woman. Extremely loving and nurturing and badass at the same time. Taught me how to create layers and how to bump in and out of the score. She taught me a lot very quickly and I really appreciate her for that. I'm super thankful and grateful. After, I wanted to take this year to make an album. I've only have made one solo album. Then I made like just a rinky-dinky something just for myself.

I really haven't put out a record since In Flight. I've just recorded an album for myself. I'm recording a new album for 4 Non Blondes. I have a secret project I'm working on. I'm doing Paris Jackson and I'm working with Mike Campbell from Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. I'm going to do that this year and then I'll probably go on to scoring another film or something next year.

Alison Stewart: You've worked with Dolly Parton. I watched an interview with Dolly Parton and she said that she's obviously very serious about her music and she appreciates that you're serious about your music. How do you balance being serious with the joy that music brings to people?

Linda Perry: Well, as you can probably guess, within the first 30 seconds, I'm very serious. My joy is being serious about music and respecting it. I am joyful all the time when I'm making music because I'm just, again, I'm trying to capture an emotion, a feel. Joy isn't popping champagne and having fun and going to play pool or a night out. I don't find any joy in things like that. I like to be in the studio. I like to work. My joy is by working and being creative and taking my art serious.

Alison Stewart: I want to ask you a little bit about EqualizeHer. What's the goal of EqualizeHer?

Linda Perry: Well, there's a lot of girls that are not getting the education, the opportunity that they should be getting. One of the things that I find amazing is there's no women that have designed a microphone. I think there's one girl that made a guitar. Amps, keyboards. The technical side, it's a total field where there's no women in there. There's not many women live sound engineers. There are more women producers showing up. There are lack of female engineers in studios. There is a lack of just simple female tour managers, female managers, all of it.

EqualizeHer comes in and we try to be a third party and connect girls to whether it's songwriting camps or coming to Brandi Carlile sound check and ghosting the sound guy, tour manager, roadie, so they can follow them around and watch what it is that they do. They get to talk to Brandi Carlile and get some information from her. We give grants. We put on shows that host kids that just are still in music school. We team up with Notes for Notes and She Is The Music.

Alison Stewart: It sounds like you're doing a lot. It sounds like you're doing a lot.

Linda Perry: I'm going to Nashville next week to do some workshops. That's my joy. Again, I probably don't sound happy, but I'm a [unintelligible 00:24:16]

Alison Stewart: We appreciate you, Linda Perry. We do appreciate you. This is All Of It.