[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart today. Thanks for joining us. I'm super glad that you're here. On today's show, we'll talk with Rose Simpson, the artist behind the beautiful sculptures on display right now in Madison Square and Inwood Hill Parks. If you're still jazzed from watching Olympic sprinting, you can keep the momentum going by watching the new Netflix docu series called Sprint. We'll speak with Warren Smith, the show's executive producer.

If you want to learn how to dance, we've got some tips for you from world championship dancer, choreographer, and local dance teacher Robert Royston. That's the plan, so let's get this started with Emmy-nominated actor Walton Goggins.

[music]

Kousha Navidar: "Everyone wants to save the world. They just disagree on how." That is a line from Fallout, the Emmy-nominated series available now on Amazon Prime. It's based on the video game series of the same name. That line really sums up the heart of the show. We're in an alternate version of Los Angeles about 200 years after nuclear war. Society is fractured with different factions, each pursuing their own agendas, which themselves often conflict.

At the center, we follow individuals just trying to do what they think is right, whatever right means. Perhaps the most enthralling character of the series is The Ghoul, formerly known as Cooper Howard. Before the war, he was a famous actor, but the bombs left him a mutant with irradiated skin and a cavity where his nose should be. After centuries, he's become a bounty hunter, pursuing his own mysterious agenda with a chaotic, neutral moral code that makes it hard to say if he's a villain or a hero.

He is played by our next guest, actor Walton Goggins. Walton has plenty of experience playing complex, fascinating characters from hit shows like Righteous Gemstones, Vice Principals, and Justified, which earned him an Emmy nomination. For Fallout, he's part of a team that has earned 17 Emmy noms, including Walton's nomination for outstanding lead actor in a drama series. We are lucky to have Walton with us now. Walton, hi. Welcome to WNYC.

Walton Goggins: So, so happy to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. It's a pleasure to have you. We've been seeing a bunch of series and movies come out over the past couple of years based on video games. Fallout has been among the most successful. I think I understand that you initially agreed to sign onto the project before you even read the script, is that right?

Walton Goggins: I did, yes, because Jonathan Nolan is a very persuasive man. I've been a fan of his going back 2020-something years to more than 20 years to Memento.

Kousha Navidar: He's the show creator, right?

Walton Goggins: He is the show creator, yes, and Westworld and just a writer of note, both him and the other Nolan, Christopher. We started with a conversation. It was with Jonah and with Geneva Dworet Robertson, one of our executive producers, and Graham Wagner, another one of our executive producers. I actually did a movie, another adaptation with Geneva, Tomb Raider with Alicia Vikander. We did that together, and Dominic West, who's also nominated this year in the same category.

I couldn't pass up the opportunity to really work with these people, so I really agreed to it without reading the first couple of scripts. They talked me into reading the first couple of scripts after they gave me a description of the character I was to be playing. They did say it was going to be two characters really, the same person, but in two very different periods in their life. I read the first two or three scripts and was so taken by the journey of this man spiritually and mentally and physically that I just immediately said, "Yes, I want to go on this journey."

Kousha Navidar: I'm sure you've read so many scripts over your long career. When you were reading this one, what tipped you off that this video game adaptation might be so successful with fans of the franchise but also new fans too?

Walton Goggins: That's a great question. I didn't. What I mean by that is I just didn't look at it. I never looked at it as a video game adaptation. I knew other people were doing that, right? They could carry that responsibility for me. I was given a seat at the table. I felt that I could best occupy that seat by judging the story on the merits of the story itself without being influenced by protecting this legacy or this property that has meant so much to so many people that have played it over the years.

There were countless people in this experience behind the scenes that were taking care of all of that. First and foremost, Jonathan Nolan, Howard Cummings, our production designer, and everything that he brought to the table with all of the Easter eggs that he planted and really filling out this world visually. Then our writers, one in particular, Graham, who's been playing this game since the very beginning. I felt that my job was to just be an outside voice and critic of the material itself and of the stories that we were telling. I'm still very grateful that that was my approach.

Kousha Navidar: It sounds like the character of The Ghoul before and after, his life before and his life at the moment that we see him further on in the story was what really spoke to you. Was that a new challenge for you, playing a character that had a life before and a life after or, in general, what challenges were you excited to tackle with this character?

Walton Goggins: Yes, that was a challenge because when you see the show, again, The Ghoul is this bounty hunter. It's been roaming post-apocalyptic landscape for 200 years, but he had a name. His name was Cooper Howard. As you said, he was a western movie star. I needed them to speak to each other over time and a considerable amount of time. 200 years, believe it or not. While that seems outlandish to me, it may as well have been five years or three years. It doesn't really matter.

It's just the number of years in this particular story. I needed to really understand Cooper Howard, which is a gateway for the audience into the world and what it was like before the bombs were dropped, before the nuclear fallout, if you will. I needed to understand what his life was like and who his friends were and what his relationship with his wife was and his daughter and the rhythm of his days and this bounty of experience and this fullness that he had in his life to fully understand what it is that he lost, right?

That was a particular challenge that I found so exciting. I was just enthralled with the endless possibilities of how these two people could speak to each other over time and really just settled on three things. It's a sense of humor because that seems to be pervasive at any given point in our life and a certain amount of charisma and a Midwestern kind of sensibility to him, this "pull up your bootstraps" or maybe like a New Yorker.

Kousha Navidar: Maybe.

Walton Goggins: Living in New York, but people are pretty hardy up here. That really worked for me and it seems to have worked out in the telling of the story.

Kousha Navidar: The word "enthralled" has been brought up twice in this interview so far. Once by me, once by you, both talking about this character of The Ghoul. I think that as a character study, it's so interesting. Because looking at him and understanding his life, which unfolds over the course of the series, you find out more and more about him, is one of the most gratifying parts of the show. It made me wonder. When we meet The Ghoul in the future, everyone sees him as deadly, as cold. His previous life as Cooper Howard has love. I'm wondering. For you, what part of his old identity can we see in the way that you carry his character forward 200 years later? Were there specific choices that you made or elements that you see come through?

Walton Goggins: Well, I think there's a loquacious kind of nature to both of them when given the microphone. Again, there's a sense of humor and there's someone that can light up a room.

[laughter]

Kousha Navidar: Either with words or with firearms, I suppose, right? [laughs]

Walton Goggins: Yes, exactly. Well-put. Absolutely, yes. There were a number of things really, but those were the main things. One is, I think, with everything, specificity is the key to every kingdom and storytelling. That's what we try to do with every aspect of the story. The Ghoul and Cooper Howard were no exception.

Kousha Navidar: Let's hear a clip of The Ghoul, how we're introduced to him. We're introduced by, actually, a band of bounty hunters who revived The Ghoul to ask for his help in tracking down a target. These hunters are nervous. You know what's coming. I can see you laughing. I love this part. The leader promises The Ghoul that this contract pays well enough to be the last score for all of them. Let's listen to The Ghoul's response.

The Ghoul: Well, I tell you what, boys. Whenever somebody says they're doing one last job, it usually means their heart's not in it. Probably never was. For me, well, I do this [bleep] for the love of the game.

Kousha Navidar: That was Walton Goggins playing The Ghoul. We're talking to Walton right now about the TV series Fallout, which is on Prime Video. Nominated for 17 Emmy nominations, including Walton's nomination for outstanding actor in lead drama. Walton, have you seen the talk online about the conversations about The Ghoul with fans saying that he's a badass with "main character energy"? Have you seen that?

Walton Goggins: I have, yes. I've seen variations of that, yes. There was a lot of talk about it being The Ghoul summer-

[laughter]

Walton Goggins: -and him being very attractive, believe it or not, despite being without a nose. That wasn't unintentional in the sense that we didn't want the audience to be repulsed visually by the appearance of this person. Rather, we wanted him to be sexy, if you will, and for the audience to want to lean in to his face as if it were a roadmap of the world for the last 200 years.

We had the great Vincent Van Dyke design the piece, who's also nominated for an Emmy, along with Jake Garber, who's an old, dear friend of mine, one of the best visual makeup artists in the world to apply it. There were so many artisans. Amy Westcott, who's here in New York. We filmed it in New York. We were based here at Steiner Studios over in Brooklyn. Then we went out to Namibia from there and out to Utah. It was New York-centric. It was all of the artists. So many artists from this area working on it and actors giving their time.

Kousha Navidar: I'm happy that you brought up Jake because I saw a video of you in the chair getting ready for The Ghoul and the intense costume design that went into it, prosthetics being put onto your face, pieces of skin being adhered on. It made me wonder. What does that relationship look like between a makeup designer and actor, especially when the character is so well-defined by their look? How are you and Jake working together every day to determine the right way for the character to look and feel? What was that process like?

Walton Goggins: Well, so much of that was Jonah was involved in that quite a bit and our showrunners were involved in it, but it was really just the four or five of us. So much of that happened during the three tests that we did of the application itself, right? Looking at it, at one point, Jonah added a nick in the ear. He felt like, "Okay. Well, what's that story like? Where does that come from? Let's get into that story later."

There were just other things that were subtly added along the way. Once that was finished, the relationship between an actor and a special effects makeup artist who is applying these pieces, in this case, it was nine pieces, is one that is extremely intimate, right? We begin the day three hours earlier than anyone else when I'm working. Luckily for me, Jake and I have done seven movies together.

He's Tarantino's guy and Sam Jackson's guy and a number of people's guys. He's just one of the best in the business. I was just so grateful that he agreed to do this because we spent so much time together. He understands my needs. I don't like to sit still. I like to move. Obviously, this required sitting still for very long periods of time, but we work through it together. Nothing really changes once the train leaves the station.

There is a rhythm and an order of things. That rhythm and that order is constantly being refined by him, not by me. Maybe I'll do some suggestions here and there to make the process more expedient. He just becomes more familiar with the pieces and I become more familiar with how the pieces are put on. I like everything in the alchemy of making movies. It's all planned. Then you turn it over to magic and that's kind of really what it was.

Kousha Navidar: Within those nine pieces being applied, was there often a moment that you noticed in your own rhythm where you slipped into The Ghoul? Was there a moment of the threshold beyond which you were in character or did that come at a different point, if at all?

Walton Goggins: What a great question. When I say personal to me, whatever that transition is and whenever that takes place. It wasn't in the trailer. It was maybe after he applied the last filler, but we would often watch movies because we got it down to about two hours and 15 minutes. We would watch movies and just talk and hang out in the morning. Then it was after leaving that trailer and walking in and putting on that costume alone and probably putting on that hat.

It's the same with every character that I've ever played and any actor plays. What is that moment where you no longer exist and you're just playing this person who also exists in the world, at least in your imagination? That's the part of the process that keeps us coming back to it time and time again. It's like a drug for me. After all these years, I still derive a lot of joy from it.

Kousha Navidar: Thinking about your career, there is an element of the joy that you find from it coming from those that helped you along the way. I was listening to a conversation you had recently with Josh Horowitz on the Happy Sad Confused podcast. You gave this really lovely story about one of your acting teachers, Harry Mastrogeorge, who sadly passed away last year. You've been in the industry for a long time. You're looking at all these wonderful roles that you've done. For people that have followed your career for so long, I'm wondering what lessons or parts of Mr. Mastrogeorge do you feel like you carry with you in your work today?

Walton Goggins: That's a jet flying over the city.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, we can't hear it. Don't worry. You're good.

Walton Goggins: Okay, great. You know, so many. Again, these three tenets of what his philosophy was, it's no different than a theology. We all have our own philosophies about everything. It's like, what works for you. For me, the things that were instilled in me now, a very long time ago, is that it's a child's game. You're not an actor. You're a storyteller. It's just turning yourself over to an imaginary set of circumstances. Your job is to hold up a mirror to nature and those four things. 32 years into this life that I've had the privilege of, not the right, the privilege of leading or living, those things are always at the forefront of my thoughts every day I go to work. That never changes.

Kousha Navidar: Nowadays, when a young actor comes up to you and asks you, "What's your process? What does it look like?" do you find yourself saying those same lessons that you learned? The idea of your reflection of nature, it's a child's game? Do you put your own spin on it? What does that look like for you now as the moments when you can be a teacher?

Walton Goggins: Well, you want to make sure you're saying it to the right audience, right? I think that there are people that they're too important to me. It's too precious to me. As I was as a younger actor, and I still am today, with people that I have such reverence for actors that are younger than me and actors that are older than me, my God, I just sit at their feet. For such a long time, you don't say anything until you have something to say.

For years, it was just soaking all of it in and really taking any bit of information that they were willing to dole out. For the hungry young artist that is not looking for notoriety, but looking for a way in which to fully express themselves in this medium, yes, I'll tell them everything that I know. At the end of that, I will say, "We all walk our own path, don't we?" You find the song that you can sing. Maybe this will be a part of it and maybe it won't.

Kousha Navidar: That's so beautiful. In one way, you're echoing what clip we chose from The Ghoul because he does it for the love of the game. It sounds like, for you, that is a part of what you look for when you're connecting with folks on talking about the craft that you do every day, right?

Walton Goggins: You know what? I couldn't have said it better myself.

Kousha Navidar: I was just hearing you.

Walton Goggins: I know you'll beat this because I do this [bleep] for the love of the game.

Kousha Navidar: Well, we'll beep it, but we're going to air it so you can hear for it. It was great.

Walton Goggins: Fantastic.

Kousha Navidar: Fans were really excited to see you pop up on Justified: City Primeval. Got to ask, what would make you excited to maybe potentially play Boyd again?

Walton Goggins: We went back and forth with that decision for a really long time. I felt that we said everything that we had to say. Someone made a comment. Dave Andron, actually, one of our executive producers and writers of the show. He said, "Yes, we did, but there is another chapter. If we turn that page, there is another part of this story that is worth telling." They told me about it and I agreed. The opportunity to work with Tim again and with these people is something that was a life experience that meant and continues to mean a great deal to me. I was so nervous the very first day. I only had a couple of days to shoot that. We really kept it under wraps for a year and a half. I lied to so many journalists--

Kousha Navidar: [laughs]

Walton Goggins: Bold-faced lying.

Kousha Navidar: Wow.

Walton Goggins: After the first five words that came out of my mouth, I thought, "Oh, I know exactly who this is. Oh, I miss this guy." I just had such a great time doing it. The thought of doing one more lap is intriguing to me and to Tim and to all people involved. We'll see. Either it will happen or it won't happen, but I think the audience needed to see that Boyd lives on in the world. He's out of jail and he's out roaming the world somewhere. Maybe people will get as much from that as I did.

Kousha Navidar: I'm sure they did. I'm sure those journalists can respect the bold-faced lying that you did in front of them to protect the story. We got to put a pin in it. I'm looking at the clock, but it's been such a pleasure. We've been here talking with Walton Goggins, a star from the TV series Fallout on Prime Video. It's available now. Fallout. Got to say it because what an accomplishment. 17 Emmy noms, including Walton nomination for outstanding actor in a lead drama. Walton, thanks so much for all of your work and for hanging out with us. Really appreciate it.

Walton Goggins: Well, I'm a New Yorker now, man, so I hope to be back on your show again. Thank you so much for the invitation. I look forward to the next time.

Kousha Navidar: Me too. Talk to you soon.

Walton Goggins: Okay, buddy.

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