Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart, and this is our Emmy show. In the heartfelt comedy-drama Shrinking, actor Michael Urie plays Brian, a sharp-tongued lawyer. His best friend is a therapist named Jimmy. Jimmy's wife was killed in a car accident, and it sent him into a spiral. Jimmy iced Brian out, stopped parenting his teenage daughter, and lost that spark of joy he felt helping his patients. That is, until he tried out an unconventional way of therapy. He became a little over-involved in patients' lives, and Jimmy calls in a much-needed favor from his lawyer friend Brian.

Of course, Brian agrees and slowly becomes a part of Jimmy's life again. That was the plot of Season 1 of the Apple TV+'s show titled Shrinking. However, Season 2 has a complete storyline about Brian becoming a parent, and it has already been renewed for a third season. Shrinking received an Emmy award nomination for Outstanding Comedy Series and stars Jason Segel, Jessica Williams, Harrison Ford, and Michael Urie, who have all received nods for their roles in the show. Michael Urie is up for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series. I started our conversation by asking him why he was excited to be part of the show.

Michael Urie: Well, the pedigree of these artists was the very first reason, but then I read the first episode, and it was so funny. Then at times, I found myself welling up with tears within seconds of laughing. I thought if this show can maintain this level of comedy and drama at the same time, then it's something really special. It's going to be a pill people can swallow in terms of actually talking about mental health, which is, I feel like, new. I think it's this taboo of mental health has lessened in the last few years, and we're really talking about the need for it. This show, I think, is really helping people.

Alison Stewart: I read somewhere, it said that you sought out therapy when you got on the show. I was like, "Is that a joke, or is this real?"

Michael Urie: It's real, it's real. It's not because the show was stressful or it made me depressed or anything like that. It was because I realized through the show because, in every episode, we tackle different mental health issues. I realized, this isn't just for people who think they're in trouble or who are depressed. Mental health maintenance is for all of us, just the same as physical health maintenance.

I was going through a few things of my own, getting in my 40s now, and thinking about the past and the future. I thought this is an opportunity for me to talk to somebody and really get a hold of what's going on with me. Yes, the show encouraged me to do it. I don't know. I don't have a therapist that's taking me boxing or anything like Jimmy does. It's really good to have somebody and to talk to somebody. I credit the show for encouraging me to do so.

Alison Stewart: How would you describe your character, Brian?

Michael Urie: Well, Brian starts off the show, as you mentioned in the intro, he's been ghosted by his friend. When he shows up, he's got this really happy-go-lucky, plucky attitude. His mantra is, "Everything goes my way." As he gets back into this group, this chosen family, which is one of the beautiful things about the show, is that this chosen family that we've got is a group that got together over the course of these two seasons.

Jimmy's the middle, the heart of the group. It was his recovery over the last two seasons that let all of the people in his life come together. When we meet Brian, I think he's got this mantra, "Everything goes my way." Then his longtime partner starts talking about having a baby, and they start thinking about becoming parents. He's back with his friend group, and those ideals slip away. This idea that everything is going to work out for him starts to slip away.

We see that he's actually a neurotic mess. That was a wall that he put up. I feel so lucky because it was fun to play a confident guy who thought he had it all, or at least would achieve it all. It's way more fun to play neuroses. Getting to follow Brian down this new path has been so fun. Watching him navigate being a husband, being a father, or potentially being a father, and figure out what his relationship with Jimmy is now, after a year of being ghosted and decades-long friendship, what does it mean to reconnect?

The big question that I was so interested in Season 2 is, "Are we even friends anymore, or would we be friends if we met today?" That's a big question. I think we ask ourselves that a lot with these longtime relationships, especially in the queer community. I can attest to this. When you're in the closet, you are not your whole self. Brian was in the closet when he and Jimmy became friends. Now, here we are 20 years on, would you be friends with--

Alison Stewart: Right. Am I the same guy? Are you the same person? Am I the same person?

Michael Urie: Am I the same guy? Exactly. The truth is, we're not. Are we still compatible as friends? Maybe. Probably. Obviously, there's this whole friend group, and everything has evolved. It's a huge question, and I think one that people ask a lot, especially in the queer community or other communities where you were pretending to be something different for a period of time.

Alison Stewart: Yes, it's very funny. He talks about his straight self, the way he describes how he reacts to things as his straight self when he was a kid.

Michael Urie: Straight Brian.

Alison Stewart: Yes, Straight Brian. What was the chemistry like between you and Jason Segel?

Michael Urie: It was immediate. Jason is one of the greatest actors I've ever worked with. He's the most prepared, most professional, and kindest person on the set. First of all, it was very easy to act with him because he's so alive and so present and so prepared, but he's also such a sweet, sweet guy in real life that I felt-- I was nervous. I was like, "Will I be able to be best friends with this guy? We don't know each other." I did not know him before I got the job. Immediately, as soon as I saw him, he gave me a big bear hug and put me at ease. It's been very easy. You just look him in the eye and you're acting. It's really terrific.

Alison Stewart: My guest is actor Michael Urie. He plays the best friend of a therapist, who's grieving the loss of his wife in the Apple TV+ comedy series Shrinking. He's joining me now to discuss the series and his career. Jimmy, played by Jason Segel, he's struggling with so much grief, sometimes in not positive ways. What choices did you make as an actor to talk about the feelings that Brian has about his friend dealing with grief? Does that make sense?

Michael Urie: Yes. Well, Brian is-- and he would never say this. He would never admit to this. He might not even know what it means, but he is a narcissist. When we meet Brian at the beginning of this series, he's mad at Jimmy. He's mad at Jimmy because he had been ghosted. Yes, he's sympathetic, and, yes, he feels bad, but he starts on his own problem, of course. That is the pattern with Brian. As we see any issue with Jimmy come up, Brian will make it about himself.

He doesn't know. He doesn't realize that that's what he's doing because he's a narcissist. They don't always see themselves. They don't always realize that that's what's going on. It's very funny. Actually, there was a moment in the show where someone calls Brian a narcissist. I remember reading it and being like, "No, he's not," and I thought, "Oh, my gosh, I'm too close. I've gotten too close to this character. I don't even realize that that's what he is."

It was actually really helpful as an actor to think of him in that way. When Jimmy has a problem, Brian's not the one to help him usually. Occasionally, Brian can help. What was so interesting about this season is they introduced the character of Louis, played by Brett Goldstein, who is the man responsible for the death of Jimmy's wife, Tia, which was a crazy twist that this guy would end up somehow in their lives after this horrible tragedy.

It ends up being Brian, who is the conduit to bring Louis into the fold of this chosen family. It seems unlikely, but also inevitable that it be Brian, because it can't really be anyone else. They're a little too close to it. Brian, even though Tia was a very close friend of his, he just happens to be in the right place at the right time to intercept Louis on the street and see that Louis is in pain and see that Louis needs someone, knows still that Jimmy and Alice and the entire group of friends who are grieving the loss of Tia still need some kind of closure. Brian helps bridge that gap. It's this wonderful thing that you put this guy, who seems to be no help at all, in the right place and the right time, and he can actually help.

Alison Stewart: Let's play a clip. Jimmy eventually finds out about Alice and Brian's interaction with Louis, which leads to a huge monologue Brian gives, which he gave to Alice earlier, explaining how he met Louis. This is from Shrinking.

Brian: I need a drink. Do you need a drink? Should we make martinis?

Alice: It's 11:00 AM, and I'm 17, but sure.

Brian: Oh, okay. Okay. Diving in. Okay, here goes. I have been talking to the young man who ran over your mom.

Alice: What?

Brian: Just listen. It gets better. It doesn't, but listen, he came here to return your wallet.

Alice: He came here?

Brian: Yes.

Alice: When? To the house? Did you talk to him or did--

Brian: If you keep asking me stuff, I'm going to get more frazzled, so just let me spit it out.

Alice: Spit it out.

Brian: He came here, and I was like, "Get away from this family. Scram," and he was like, "Sorry," but he seemed wounded. More like, "Sorry." I was like, "Are you okay?" He was like, "Yes," but I could tell he wasn't. I'm going through a super empathetic stage because Charlie and I decided that we're going to have a baby. If it's a boy, we're going to name him Peter Bernadette. If it's a girl, obviously, Bernadette Peters. Anyway, so I went to the coffee shop where he works. Not to see him, just to ask if he was okay.

His boss was this kind of Tony Soprano guy, but hotter. He'd rough you up, but also be a really good kisser. I wish I had a picture. I ask the boss about Louis, and he says he's super depressed. He's a downer, but you can't fire a person for being a bummer. Cancel culture, am I right? Next thing I know, he calls Louis over, and we start talking. Alice, his life is bleak, like Requiem for a Dream bleak. Not like the middle part, where they're all enjoying the heroine. The end, where they're all ass to ass, and you realize that heroin's no fun at all.

Alison Stewart: We learned so much about Brian just in that monologue. So much about Brian just in that monologue.

Michael Urie: Can't believe you just heard me say "ass to ass" on public radio.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: It's for the art. It's for the art, Michael.

Michael Urie: [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Tell me about rehearsing that monologue, because it does go to so many different places. It ends up in the right place, but there's tangents left and right.

Michael Urie: Yes, he's all over the map with this monologue. It was such a gift to get a monologue. A monologue on television, that's so rare. Unless you're doing a political speech or a summation or something in a courtroom. I was so grateful. They gave it to me ahead of time because they wanted me to be familiar with it and have time with it, because it's a lot more dialogue than usual for somebody to have on a TV show.

They said, "You're going to repeat it again verbatim." I knew not only am I going to do it. I'm going to have to do it a month later. They wanted it to be verbatim. I thought of it as when you have something hard to say to somebody or something complicated or something you're nervous about saying, at least I do. I practice it in the car or in the shower or when I'm alone. You go through it, and you imagine what might happen when you start to tell the other person this complicated idea.

I looked at it like that. This is something that he has been saying in his head, practicing, and preparing for the moment when, inevitably, he's going to have to say it, which helped because it meant that I was able to have a muscle memory and get it in my bones and think of it as a rehearsed speech that Brian had prepared because he knew, eventually, he was going to have to spill the beans. I also knew that I needed to know this thing backwards and forwards.

I spent a lot more time on this than I would normally on a script for TV, just because they're usually three-minute scenes. You have maybe half the lines. It's a lot easier to memorize. Also, the writing on Shrinking is sterling. The better the writing is, the easier it is to remember. It's always been fairly easy to get the words in my head on this show, but I spent a lot more time on that. Also, I had to perfect my Brett Goldstein imitation. I had to figure out how he would say, "Sorry."

[laughter]

Michael Urie: Then Lukita Maxwell, who's the incredible, brilliant actor who plays Alice, we spent a little time together, just the two of us in the trailer going through it. That was really, really helpful. Having her to look at made it really easy. Again, it was just the greatest gift to be given this speech that's funny and heartfelt and high octane. I'm so grateful for it. In fact, this is my dream come true. Somebody on Instagram spliced them together.

[laughter]

Michael Urie: You can see how they mirror each other.

Alison Stewart: The show is called Shrinking. That was my conversation with actor Michael Urie, who is up for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series. The ceremonies will be held on Sunday, September 14th. You can watch them on CBS or streaming on YouTube. That is All Of It for today. All Of It is produced by Andrea Duncan-Mao, Kate Hinds, Jordan Lauf, Simon Close, Zach Gottehrer-Cohen, L. Malik Anderson, and Luke Green.

Megan Ryan is the head of Live Radio. Our engineers are Juliana Fonda and Amber Bruce. Luscious Jackson does our music. If you missed any segments this week, catch up by listening to our podcast, available on your podcast platform of choice. If you like what you hear, please leave us a great rating. It helps people find the show. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening, and I appreciate you. I'll meet you back here next time.