Alison Stewart: This is All of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you are here. On today's show, we'll speak with Robel Oweke, the author of a short history of black craft in 10 objects. We'll also talk about the new PBS documentary about the new LaGuardia Airport titled Extreme Airport Engineering. That's the plan. Let's get this started with the Oscar-nominated editor of Wicked.

[music]

When Myron Kerstein was given the task of editing both parts one and two of Wicked, he was in for an immense challenge. First of all, there is about 250 hours of footage to sort through. The movie would be split into two parts. It was a musical and the singing was live. There were giant dance scenes. Of course, there were expectations of devoted fans of the stage musical who wanted and waited for 20 years to see the story of Glyndon Elphaba come to the big screen.

Myron had musical experience editing films like Tick, Tick... Boom! and In the Heights. He and director Jon Chu had a great working relationship from previous projects. He was up for the challenge. Now Myron is an Oscar-nominated for his work editing Wicked, which is also nominated for best Picture. We are speaking to him as part of our series the Big Picture, featuring conversations with Oscar nominees who work behind the camera. Myron, welcome to All of It.

Myron Kerstein: Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to be here again. I just want to say that you're a national and New York treasurer. I'm so thankful for your rehabilitation. I'm really honored to be here.

Alison: Oh, thanks. Step by step and hopefully I won't screw up in this interview. When was your first big break as a film editor?

Myron: My first big break was on a film called Black and White. I heard that James Toback needed basically a button pusher to basically do whatever he asked me to do. It turned out to be a really big credit because there was a lot of stars in there, like Robert Downey Jr. Was in it, Brooke Shields, Elijah Wood, the list goes on and on. It was a really big opportunity for me.

Really it was these amazing editors who brought me on as an assistant editor from the editors on TV Nation, Michael Moore's old news magazine show that predated Colbert Report and Daily show, and my mentor, James Lyons, who was the editor of Todd Haynes films like Velvet Goldmine and Safe. The list goes on and on again.

Alison: When you said that was your big break, what did it teach you about editing?

Myron: It taught me that so much of storytelling goes into the editing craft. You can get hundreds of hours of footage, and if you have an idea, you can make something amazing out of it. So much of the rewrite they say happens in the editing room.

That's true because it's one thing to have the script that tells all the crafts, the production designer, the costume designer, the actors, what to say and possibly look at, but then the storytelling, the rewriting happens again in the editing room. Quickly I learned that I had a lot of power as an editor.

I was also the co-parent of nurturing this baby into existence and then putting it out into the world. I take a lot of pride in the work that I do. Other editors feel the same way. They put everything they have into the storytelling and making something for an audience.

Alison: When you read Wicked, what did your editor brain say to you when you finished?

Myron: When I finished the first part, I burst out into tears. I remember thinking, this script, and this IP really touched me emotionally. My editor brain told me we have to capture that same feeling in the edit. If we can do that, if we can make this work emotionally, then we have something here.

If we don't feel the power of the words and the relationship and the music, if we don't feel this big Empire Strikes Back cliffhanger with the end of Defying Gravity, then it's not going to work. I just knew after reading the script that I had to find the same emotion with whatever we did in the edit and then hopefully the audience would respond to it.

Alison: You told Filmmaker magazine that, "Musicals are the hardest thing I could ever cut." What makes musicals so difficult?

Myron: Because as soon as someone starts singing, the storytelling can maybe stop because you start to just see the song and it could turn into a music video. I think that it's really, really important for us as storytellers to always keep the audience really tight in your hands and just to make the journey feel like it just never stops. When you start a song, you can really lose your audience.

I think that John's take on making Wicked, the story never stops just because the singing starts. That is the first thing. The second thing is it's really hard technically to go between dialogue and live singing and keep things in rhythm. It's also hard to start and stop songs and going to score and dialogue and action scenes. Technically, it's really difficult to have all those balls in the air. It's hard enough to cut anything for any editor.

There's no roadmap. There's thousands of choices. As you said, I had 250 hours between the two movies. I have just so many choices, but then you have to manage all the music and somehow, in my case, have somebody like Cynthia Erivo singing while she's flying around in wires and rig, and make it feel seamless. It's just a lot to juggle.

Alison: Goofy question. Did you get all 250 hours at the end or did you see it throughout the filming?

Myron: No, it was an eight-month shoot. In television they do this thing called block shooting which is basically if you're doing a number of episodes, you may get the dailies or the footage of an episode that's the second or third episode in the series. I would get the same thing. I would get two hours one day of Part one, two hours the next day of Part two.

I was always juggling between the two movies. It was a lot coming at me all the time. I did have an eight-month shoot. It was quite long. I was in the UK while they were doing it. You have to just bite off things in little morsels. You just can't take it all on at the same time. You have to make sure that you don't get overwhelmed by all the footage. Then of course you don't really know what you have till you get back to Los Angeles, you're like, "Now I have a movie here," but thank goodness, I don't get it all at the end.

Alison: My guest is Myron Kerstein. He's the Oscar-nominated for his work, editing the film Wicked. We're speaking to him as part of our annual series, the Big Picture. You described yourself as a co-parent of the film. I'm assuming Jon Chu should be the other co-parent. What makes him a good collaborator?

Myron: First and foremost, it's trust. He trusts me a lot in the edit. He likes to say that he captures butterflies. His father is a chef, a famous chef in Palo Alto, Chef Chu. He collects spices. He gives me the spices and ingredients and then I get to make this beautiful meal or I get to not kill the butterflies, but make them part of this big, beautiful canvas. He gives me a lot of room to just explore the footage. It's that trust. Of course, we like each other.

There's a shorthand with us now. This is our fifth project, starting with Crazy Rich Asians. I think that just having that trust to be able to explore ideas together. Then of course, we try to raise each other's bar. Since I have met Jon, he's changed my life. He's really inspired me to be a better storyteller and filmmaker and a better co-parent to these babies that we make together. I'm really thankful.

Alison: We here in New York, we know that Wicked is its own thing. It's got its own universe around it, the stage play. How were you thinking about people who would see this film, who were hardcore fans of Wicked, the musical, the stage musical?

Myron: I was terrified. It's terrifying. My son, who's now 18, I saw Wicked with him in New York City on Broadway when he was six. I remember feeling the impact of that production on myself and my son and in the audience. I remember seeing Wicked just after I'd been hired the first week when Broadway reopened. I remember that feeling like Beatlemania rock show.

I was like, "This musical is different than most." It is arguably one of the most famous in Broadway history. It is terrifying to be the guardian of this thing that's really important to people. That said, I was really excited too. I was really excited to meet the challenge, to bring something that I have as an artist to this thing that people love so much.

Also, of course, I loved The Wizard of Oz and I love the Frank L. Bomb books. All this was part of my own DNA. I was very excited to hopefully deliver for an audience. Of course, at first you're just like, "Oh, my goodness, this is--" You can't hide under the sheets on this one. You can't hide in the corner and say, "Hey, we've got this little indie movie, which I've." I've made plenty of wonderful indie movies that 10 people see, and this was going to be different.

It's just me in that challenge and getting excited and not being-- I think so much of what we do as artists is to meet those challenges. Fear is a good thing for us to conquer fear and to meet that challenge. I think that's what is exciting about being an artist. This was a biggie for sure.

Alison: Let's talk about one of those challenges. Was there a particular scene in the film that went through different drafts, different versions in your mind before landing on the one we see today?

Myron: I think the Ozdust Ballroom, which is the centerpiece of the film, it's basically where Elphaba and Glinda become friends. It's a really powerful moment that on the stage show, we go through it pretty quickly. Then on the screenplay, you would say these two people bond. It was really in the rehearsal process where Jon and Ari and Cynthia Erivo found the scene.

That was to stretch out these beats and make it feel very awkward, and feel the bullying and filling her ostracization and making the audience work for it. In the edit, I really tried to not worry that this was a fast-paced musical, but to really earn the emotion. I really worked tirelessly trying to milk the footage of Elphaba feeling alone and abandoned, and her trying to find some power in this weird deconstructed dance.

Then Glinda making this gesture, this kindness, and then that earning some form of bonding and acceptance by everyone in the room. I'm really proud of so much of the movie. I'm proud of the action that I cut in the transformation scene with Chistry, the flying monkeys defying gravity. Popular. What is this feeling? The wizard and I, all those are just incredible musical numbers that I got to be a part of. The Ozdust Ballroom, this one centerpiece scene, if that didn't work, the rest of the film wouldn't matter.

Alison: What was something you wanted to make sure you captured about Cynthia Erivo in this film?

Myron: I just wanted to make sure I captured what she was bringing in the dailies, which was a grounded performance that didn't-- Like in the stage show. Elphaba seems like a joke in some ways. She's even in on the joke. That was not Cynthia's portrayal. She wanted to make sure that she felt like a real person. That's hard to do in a film that is a fantasy film.

You have Ariana Grande, who's playing wonderfully. She's playing Glinda, who's the mean girl. Of course, you want to lean in towards the mean girl. Cynthia was like, "No, no, I can still exist in this world grounded and feel real, and be a counterpart to the other characters," and just being confident in her performance. Sometimes you see someone's performance and you're like, "Oh, I'm not sure about this. Maybe I should try and manipulate it in a different way."

To really embrace what her and Jon was bringing to me in the dailies and to milk it, and to believe in the looks and the silence-- So much of the film is about the silences and the looks. If I could just make a string out of just the quiet looks in this film, it would probably be half the movie. Just embracing that her being so grounded and so real was something I loved doing.

Alison: It was interesting. Ariana Grande showed that she has amazing comedic chops in this film. What is key to editing a good comedic performance?

Myron: It's really difficult because I think comedy is one of the hardest things to cut as well. Some of my editors, that's all they do, is cut comedy. I've had a little experience with that in some of the projects I've worked on. Oftentimes, any great actor, and Ari is definitely one of those, and they bring you a lot. They bring you so much material to work with.

I would sit there in the other room just laughing all day of so many different takes. I think it's just trying to find-- It's not being lost in the scene. Remember, there's still a scene, even though you're cutting the comedy. You got to make sure that you're still telling the story within the scene, and then the comedy should come out of that organically, and that it shouldn't run away with it, the comedy.

Then also listen to your gut. If something makes you laugh, then maybe there's something there. Then, of course it's good to test these things on your different audience members, whether it's your assistant editors, who's your first audience members, or your friends. Then test audiences with previews, what have you, just getting a sense of, is there something in your gut that says that, that is funny, and that makes you laugh, and then putting it to work.

It's really challenging. Something with Ari was just a revelation. When I saw her dailies, I was like, "Oh, my goodness. She's a movie star. A star is born in front of me. To see her performance and see how much her comic timing was work, but at the same time, staying in the scene, not breaking character was, like I said, a real revelation.

Alison: All those hair throws, you just had to make sure that you saw it and you realize she's doing this repeatedly.

Myron: I had like two hours of hair throws. I'm not kidding. It was amazing. Anyways, she's incredible.

Alison: My guest is Myron Kerstein. He is Oscar-nominated for his work, editing the film Wicked. We were speaking to him as part of our annual the Big Picture series. Let's go to the opening of the movie. It's No One Mourns the Wicked, which begins with Munchkin celebrating the death of the Wicked Witch of the West. Let's listen.

[music - No One Mourns the Wicked - Ariana Grande and Wicked Movie Cast.

Alison: Myron, what did you want to communicate with that very first scene, that very first musical number

Myron: Two things. One is how much the Wicked Witch of the West is hated. No One Mourns is very challenging because it's not a banger number. What is this feeling or something like popular, or how we finish was Defying Gravity, there's a lot of anger and hate built into that number.

To communicate that, that this is a mob, this is a group of people that feel terrorized by the Wicked Witch of the West, and that she is singing to comfort them. Also there's some cracks in there with Glinda that you start to notice that this is actually her friend that she's talking about. No One Mourns was probably one of the last scenes that we got right because it just was so challenging. People were just like, they're burning this effigy. That seems so harsh.

We were like, "That's the point, is that we have to show how much this community is fearful of this and how terrorized they feel." We have to convince the audience of the symbol of the Wicked Witch of the West and what it means. Then we have to communicate through Glinda that there might be something else to this story. Anyways, it took maybe six months to figure out the totality of that number.

Alison: Of course, Defying Gravity is the way the film ends part one. We're going to play a little bit of it. What do you want people to think about as they're listening to Defying Gravity?

Myron: Think about the words. Think about what Cynthia is saying. She's trying to take back this power, and she's trying to-- It's this moment where Elphaba, she's not going to take it anymore. She's going to fight for what she believes in. She knows that she doesn't have to rely on anybody else but herself to get wherever where she's going.

Of course, I have a lot of pride in that sequence because it's the end of the movie. It's arguably one of the most famous songs in Broadway history. We start and stop it. You won't hear that so much in this clip, but we start and stop that number again and again, and we have to hold the audience tight, dramatically as we do that. There's a lot of emotion that's built in and they're saying goodbye to each other.

Her finishing, putting all the puzzle pieces together to finish what is arguably the origin story of the Wicked Witch of the West, she has a hat and the cape and the broom and. I'm really proud about how, of course, it turned out, but also that at the end of the day, it's about the words about Stephen Schwartz vocals, lyrics that he wrote, and what it means to this character.

Alison: Let's hear Defying Gravity.

[music - Defying Gravity]

Alison: Oh, so good. Cynthia Erivo, she sang live for those tracks. Yes? Was that a challenge for you?

Myron: Yes. To find the right takes as she's being flung around on wires, these big shots of her being flung around. Simon Hayes, our incredible production mixer, we had to capture this with muted wind machines and get mics somehow on her. Then I have an incredible music editorial team of Jack Dohlman and Kathryn Wilson and a rerecording mixer, Andy Nelson.

We have to work seamlessly between these different departments. Nancy Nugentitle, John Marquis, just to make this feel like a cohesive unit. I have to pick with Jon, what is ultimately the right performance to feed all these departments. It's really challenging to make sure that you don't get lost in it when you-- Again, you have a lot of footage. Then you want to do right by a powerhouse like Cynthia who's bringing it. You don't want to miss a kernel. You have to be really thorough in the process and not be afraid that it's not going to all come together in the end.

Alison: Two more questions for you. You said that you edited parts one and parts two at the same time.

Myron: Yes.

Alison: Is it a continuation of part one or is its own separate movie?

Myron: It's own separate movie. It's basically the second half of the show with some surprises in there. It's a continuation of the story. The first film is a lot of setup. It's the origin story of the Wicked Witch of the West. It's also about setting up these problems and choices. The second movie is about consequences and what do we do with them?

I think that's really exciting for an audience to experience so close to each other a year later. It was a challenge. I had an incredible second editor assembling the second movie. Her name's Tatiana Riegel, to help me out with that assembly challenge because I had so much footage. Within a couple weeks, about a month after we finished shooting, we were able to watch both parts together in the edit room in Los Angeles. We've seen it, we've lived it, we've felt the emotion. Just can't wait.

Alison: I do want to point out that you have a home in Altadena. Everything okay?

Myron: We're one of three houses standing amongst thousands of houses that have been flattened. No. It's not great. We don't know if we'll be back if ever. My 11-year old attends a school down the block and that's been closed. It's standing but sister school has been burned down. He just started school Odyssey Charter School North and South. The incredible teachers and administration there did find, just this week, some new locations, but we're all displaced. My neighbors, my family. It's gonna be years. Please, a lot of love towards Altadena. Don't forget about us. Don't turn the page too soon.

Alison: My guest has been Myron Kerstein. He's Oscar-nominated for his work editing the film, Wicked. Thank you so much for taking the time. Sending all our best wishes to you, your family and your neighbors.

Myron: Thank you so much. It really is an honor.