Alison Stewart: This is All of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. To tell the story of Victor Frankenstein and his creation, director Guillermo del Toro and his team built a colorful version of Victorian England that popped on the big screen. A big part of that vision involved my next guest, Oscar nominated costume designer, Kate Hawley. From electric blue feathered headpieces to blood red gloves to ice encrusted uniforms by soldiers, Kate's costumes are bold.

Kate drew inspirations from all different places, from David Bowie to Tiffany and company. Her work on Frankenstein has earned her an Oscar nomination for Best Costume Design. It's her first. She joins me now to discuss it as part of our ongoing series, The Big Picture, celebrating Oscar nominees who work behind the scenes. Kate Hawley, welcome to All of It.

Kate Hawley: Thank you, Alison. What a treat.

Alison Stewart: You've worked with Guillermo-- Excuse me, You've worked with the director before. [laughs]

Kate Hawley: I think it's like three-and-a-half times. Am I allowed to half?

Alison Stewart: You're allowed to half. What did you learn from those experiences working with him that helped you on this project?

Kate Hawley: I'm always surprised in the process. He always throws a curveball somewhere in there. For the very first time we met, it was a shared love and language of books. I think he looked at my bookshelf and that was the deciding factor as to whether we could work together. It was a kind of obscenely grotesque bookshelf. I had Goya and other painters like that, but we had a common language, and a foundation of art history in that. He's an incredible man of literature, of art, of music. It's not hard to develop that language when you have someone who's so visual.

Alison Stewart: It's so interesting. What was on that bookshelf?

Kate Hawley: I had Joel-Peter Witkin. You go through your student days and you go as grotesque as you can, and then you become more grown up and middle aged and [unintelligible 00:02:09] it. The books change a little bit, but lots of art books. I'm interested in books of all kinds. I think books are something to cherish. I'm a big collector of them.

Alison Stewart: You get a project like this and they're known for their amazing costumes. Guillermo's projects have makeup and production design. You said in an interview, and I thought this was so interesting, that you usually start with one moment. When Something is so extreme, you've got so much to do, you start with one moment. What was your moment on Frankenstein?

Kate Hawley: Oh, actually, I think first of all, after reading the script, it was the moment of-- We first discussed the moment being Victor on stage in the medical lecture theatre. Then there were a couple of other moments. Sometimes they're not big moments, sometimes it's just a small moment, but you have a clear moment of what the vision and language is. You know that's the texture of it, the feel of it. I work across things. I think the bride was another one. Then gradually as you put pins in the wall, you start to build the framework and the language from there. Lots of moments within drawing as well, lots of sketches to find it.

Alison Stewart: What role does Guillermo want the costumes to play in his films?

Kate Hawley: He always describes, he goes, "Kate, you reflect the set, you reflect the architecture, the environment." I think the important thing when you're working with Guillermo is for everybody to know that he regards all of us as one department. That includes, under that umbrella, production designer, cinematography, in this case, Dan Laustsen, production designer Tamara Deverell, and Mike Hill, the creator of the creature. We're all really, one department. When he asks me to reflect the environment in that, I'm looking at how that relates to in color, texture, mood. Does the character sit within it or without out of that world.

There's lots of language that we use in composition and form that I use, and there's repetition of imagery. There's all sorts of things that are layered through, both through color, both through texture, both through form and imagery. The imagery within the script, which is the Bible for me, that's where I come back to, had images of religion and mythology and nature. All of that gets tied up in what does this character wear?

Alison Stewart: That's interesting, though. It sounds like a collaboration is involved.

Kate Hawley: It's always a collaboration. Many years ago, I studied at Motley Theatre Design Course in London, and I was always taught that the sets aren't complete until the characters is standing within them. It's the same with when I build a character, until hair and makeup have contributed there, and of course, most importantly, the actor. It is in collaboration, what each department does is emphasizing or echoing what every other person does.

Really, I liken us to parts of an orchestra that Guillermo is conducting. We come and go in terms of focus with that. All our work is elevated by each other's work, because we share the language, because we understand what Guillermo is trying to do for his overall vision. It makes everything stronger. You can't be an island in this world. [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: Hope not. We're discussing the costumes of Frankenstein with costume designer Kate Hawley. Her work has earned her an Oscar nomination for Best Costume Design. We're speaking to her as part of her ongoing Oscar series, The Big Picture. When you sat down to think about the designs, were you committed to historical accuracy, or did you wanted to change things up a little bit?

Kate Hawley: Guillermo, definitely, when we started talking, he said, "Kate, let's push things." He wanted a very operatic feel, the melodrama we talked about, the dream of it, the melancholy and tone. All of those things demands a more poetic language and a more heightened language. The nature of him putting in the Crimean War as the backdrop, meant that I still had to use a sense of historical silhouette and some level of realism there.

Everything was pushed within that, and some moments were pushed more and some less. He'd always go, "Kate, too much." [laughter] Or, "Kate, he's not that good in coming forward." That's what's wonderful about having a relationship that you've-- when we've worked together before, ego stands at the door very firmly, and it's about getting to the best idea and the best thing for the production.

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's interesting. You can go too far with Guillermo del Toro?

Kate Hawley: Yes, I can. [laughter] Well, I did once.

Alison Stewart: Oh, do you mind telling us what it is?

Kate Hawley: Oh, innumerable times, I would say-- This is such a personal story. He's lived with this for so long, so he's got the bigger picture as director, as an artist himself. He's got the overall picture. I'm always discussing things in relation to costume and possibly to set, because Tamara and I are always in those conversations. The way I can describe it is then when you see him edit and he would share with us the edit of the day, or he was cutting it in front of us sometimes on set and invite us to that. Then you go, "Oh, I was asked to do this thing. Then I never understood why at the time." You don't always question him. Then the next minute you see the cut and you go, "Oh, that's why it was happening, because it was answering to another thing. There's a benevolent hierarchy here, but it works. He's the visionary behind it, and he's got all these complex things he's weaving in that isn't just my department.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about the creature costume. The first time we see the creature of Frankenstein, he's walking across the frozen tundra and this gigantic fur coat. It makes a dramatic silhouette for the creature.

Kate Hawley: He's a gigantic man.

Alison Stewart: He is a gigantic man. He's a big guy. How much were you keeping silhouettes in mind when you were designing clothing?

Kate Hawley: You know what? That's where I start at the beginning, because sometimes in terms of process, you can lock yourself in by doing a finished illustration. That's not what the process is. It's a tool. Often when I'm working with Guillermo, and it depends on who you're working with, but with Guillermo, I'll do lots and lots of quick sketches. I have illustrators. Like I had Dane Madgwick working with me on this, and we did many, many little thumbnail sketches.

Guillermo is interested-- we discussed the idea as, what is the point of view from the sailors when we first see this creature? Is it a beast or a bear coming out of it? By doing that, we can lock off a silhouette and then work the details from within, and then also use that idea, that process, sketching out the whole arc of the character. I'll do this with every character going through all the main story points, and then work in with the detail and start building fabrics and applications into that.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about Elizabeth, the woman Victor is in love with, who takes a real interest in the creature. Elizabeth doesn't seem to be like other women. She loves bugs. She likes science. She's not at all afraid of the creature. How did you want to convey what is special about her or different about her through her costumes?

Kate Hawley: I think she sees the beauty and the imperfection in nature. Guillermo again wrote these little character biographies. In it, she reads a book. She's a follower of William Paley, who was a theologist of the time and believed that God was present in every aspect of nature. I think for her, when she sees the creature, she sees the beauty in him, and it's not the ugliness and the horror at all.

This conversation of the Beatles and her being a little outside the norm in one of the earlier scripts, and I think it's mentioned in the text anyway, is that she is in a convent trying to find her own space in this world. In some cases, she's an object of Harlander's. All of these things came through, and as we were starting to build the color palette, Victor's world was red, white and black.

Then we talked about looking at the reference for Beatles, the color, these blues and greens that echoed Harlander's world, but hers were more intense, stronger. She's almost got a dreamlike quality. I would say this about Mia as much as I would about Elizabeth, and that she's almost-- You can't catch her. There's this almost constant change in metamorphosis, and she has this dreamlike melancholy to her. Guillermo asked me to make her quality feel very ephemeral and ethereal. The colors became strong, and looked at iridescent beetles for reference, the blues, the greens. Then that worked its way through fabrics in terms of textiles that we wove, created patterns for.

Then the use of veils and that and the layers of transparency. Then sometimes you'll see patterns that change and move with her as we go through. How we look at her all the time is changing. Then this image of her behind veils is all about memory, layers and layers of memory within it. Mia brought a lot of that with her performance as well. It's a huge part of what we do as characters, really, supporting what the actor's doing as well. Again, it's another collaboration, and I feel like I'm just trying to pull out and emphasize those moments that we see with her.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting you're talking about the actor, because Mia Goth is a particular kind of actor. Jacob Elordi is another kind of actor. His physicality. How often does an actor help you shape the designs of the costume? You may have an idea, but then you meet the actor. Do you have to shift your thoughts at all?

Kate Hawley: I think you always have to be open. Again, everyone comes with their own-- They've read the script, they come with their own vision. I do have, in the fitting room, the whole world around me. I have all Tamara's production design images, I have all the other character images. I try and give them a sense of the world as much as possible. Guillermo is with us at the beginning of fittings because that's when the shaping is coming. It's really important your director's part of that process, and things are discovered.

Sometimes I can be a bit of a bull at a gate, but I've really learned to stand and watch. When you're doing that first fitting, letting them move and discover things, explore things. There's things that came out of that fitting with Mia. The way she moved and the way she would fall into the floor. We gave her beetles to play with, not live ones. Then the whole thing. Then there's this wonderful conversation with her and Guillermo. Your job's to listen as much as to offer things, and then shape through that.

It can be a very ordinary thing. Like, how does this fit? What's the practical elements of that? What has to happen to it, the comfort? Then there's what would Elizabeth-- How do we capture a moment and emphasize it? What is she feeling? A lot of it was a lot of based on feelings. Mia has such an unusual, mercurial quality to her. Both she and Jacob, all our actors, Oscar, they're so dedicated to their process, but also to play and trying things.

We build things. Then we create things to play with amongst that, too, and finding the moments. Watching how Jacob moved when he first came, that poor man was thrown in such a fast-- He only had a few weeks, and next minute he was being shoved into a fitting room. We had Micah as part of that process and seeing what Mike was doing, how Jake would move and articulate those limbs, how he would work and exaggerate his performance. It's about that, about movement, all of those things.

Alison Stewart: We're discussing costumes with Kate Hawley. She designed them for Frankenstein, and her work earned her an Oscar nomination for Best Costume Design. Talk to me about creating Elizabeth's wedding dress.

Kate Hawley: Oh, yes. No small feat to be-- No small burden, should I say, when Guillermo wants a bride and it's Frankenstein. He and Mike are our creature designer. They call themselves Frankenheads. [laughter] I came knowing the novel-- I know. No, this is a very real thing. They have help sessions on it. I came only knowing Shelley's work. The Guillermo and Mike knew every iteration, every film iteration. They're total geeks. Of course, some of that rubs off in the ether.

We were talking about the bride, and I know we wanted to create a-- It was a lovely moment to do a homage to Elsa Lanchester. I started working within the silhouette and playing with this idea. Just as I reflect the sets and the environment. Elizabeth, at this part of the story reflects the creature's world. His world is full of anatomy in the body. Even the cell that you look at that Tamara has designed is almost like a rib cage. I took those elements and then played with it. We exaggerated that in the bodice that she wears.

We really approached it like the layers of an X-ray. That dress has about five or six layers. We wove a silk to match the weight because we knew movement was a really important part of this. Then we had the layers of the ribbon corset that echoed the bandages of the creature and also the rib cage of a human. Then we had layers and layers of very fine transparent fabrics that were ombre and dyed. The moment when she is killed, the bleeding through the bloom of blood comes through the dress and transforms her into anatomical piece of flesh, really. More reminiscent of those 19th century human anatomy paintings.

That at that point then completes the visual story of the red that Guillermo is telling throughout the story. There's many layers. Then the jeweled cross that she wears and the two heraldic brooches, which also echo the creature's chains. We collaborated and created that with Tiffany's. That was an amazing process to be doing that. The jewelry was part of that as well.

Alison Stewart: I wanted to ask about a moment with Victor, who's played by Oscar Isaac.

Kate Hawley: Oh, we love Oscar Isaac.

Alison Stewart: Yes, we do. He messed up an element of his costume. He got it rumpled or messed up in some way. You decided to just leave it and not adjust it. Why did you do that?

Kate Hawley: It supported his performance as Victor. He was being Victor and Victor, in a way, of being a passionate artist and all about the work. He has beautiful clothes but wears them in a really irreverent way. Guillermo wanted him to strut around like a bit of a rock star. That medical lecture theater where we first see Victor, that's his stage. Oscar walked on with his hands outright and a posture that reminded you of Bowie or Prince. His physicality was always playing to the audience. The clothes move and get pulled out.

We actually resisted the-- There's always a temptation in the middle of continuity to go up and tidy everything up. This was such a big part of Victor's physicality, and it was fine to be rumpled and not perfect. He wears his clothes irreverently, and it's part-- He doesn't care. He's about passionately trying to sell his idea and tell his story. Oscar was so fantastic like that to work with, constantly in fittings, playing with these things. How can we emphasize that? How can we exaggerate this? Could this be a good moment to wear that? It's a constant play. The play never stops. I love that when you have your actors doing that.

Alison Stewart: We talked to another costume designer who worked on Nightmare Alley with Guillaume.

Kate Hawley: Oh, Luis.

Alison Stewart: Yes, Luis Sequeira.

Kate Hawley: He's very brilliant.

Alison Stewart: He told me that little details like a button might seem small, but when it's blown up on the big screen, it becomes much more visible. What's an example for you in this film?

Kate Hawley: I think the whole film, really. Tamara would speak to this and say, "We're dealing with the macro and the micro." Maybe it's Harlander's shoes, the heels of Harlander's shoes, or the detail in a glove. The little Medusa that Leopold, Victor's father's wearing. The stitching on the back of the dresses that echo the spine of the creature. All of that language is just there as layers. We just build layers all the time. Sometimes the layers are small and sometimes they're bigger. Sometimes it's just the way we're dealing with the textile effect. It's all part of that storytelling.

We made buttons for the creature's coat based off the Crimean War. We've got all these buttons. We made many Crimean War coats for the battle scene and things, or the battleground. It's part of giving the reality to the character. We're walking onto sets where they're 360 and the world is complete, and why would we not do the same for the clothes and to support our actors in the world that they're in? You do feel and notice things. If you didn't think about it, it would stand out like a sore thumb, I think.

Alison Stewart: I have been speaking with Kate Hawley. She's a costume designer. Her work earned her an Oscar nomination for Best Costume Design, her first ever. It's part of ongoing series, The Big Picture. Kate, congratulations to you.

Kate Hawley: Thank you so much. I think we're very thrilled that my crew are being celebrated, and it's a wonderful moment to enjoy. Thank you.