Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. The Peabody Awards were announced yesterday. WNYC studios won for the podcast Blindspot about the early days of the AIDS crisis and the women who bore witness and became accidental activists. Kudos to them. Another winner was a poignant documentary called Daughters. It's about the commitment between a group of daughters and fathers. The fathers are incarcerated. The film centers on a dance, a father-daughter dance. We meet four girls who cope differently with their father's absences. We also follow their fathers through a 12-week program to help them prepare for what might be the only chance to be with their daughters and a chance to make a memory. As we learn in the film, an increasing number of prisons, in-person contact doesn't exist. It can only be made through a video screen. Now, not to spoil the film, but the participants in this program are overwhelmingly successful. 95% of the men in the programs remained out of prison after their release.

Last summer we spoke to filmmaker Natalie Rae and Chad Morris, the fatherhood coach who helps the incarcerated men prepare for the day itself. Angela Patton, who co-directed the film with Natalie. She's also the CEO of Girls For A Change, the founder of a camp Diva Leadership Academy, which is where the idea for the Date with Dad program originated. I started by asking Angela to explain to me about the idea for the Date with Dad program, where it came from.

Angela Patton: I think that when you allow girls to be in a space that allows them to affirm their voice, to be seen, heard and celebrated, and it's not only a safe space, but a brave space, and they really feel that we are actively listening to them, anything could actually come out of their imagination. At Girls For A Change, we pride ourselves in creating such spaces. I'm fortunate that I'm in the position to do so. With this particular program called Girl Action Team, we allow girls to think about issues in their community that they would like to solve.

The girls really wanted to address these stereotypes and negative narratives around Black fatherhood and how it actually showed up in their lives. The girls realized that it was something that they needed to do differently and that was really celebrate their fathers in their own way. At first, it was just a community dance that was going to be facilitated by the girls in Richmond, Virginia. As they were planning this dance, they realized that one of their peers, unfortunately, could not attend because her father was incarcerated. That really bothered those girls.

That's when they decided to think about how they could be creative and making sure that their friend had the same experience that they were about to have with their fathers on the outside. They decided to write a letter to our sheriff at that time, the former sheriff now, Sheriff CT Woody, who was really leading the Richmond Justice Center and asked him if they would allow them to bring a dance of their own inside the city jail. Then he graciously accepted the invitation. This is why we're here today.

Alison Stewart: Natalie, what were some of the things you were hoping to communicate through the documentary?

Natalie Rae: Great question. I really wanted people to connect with these girls, connect with how they were feeling, what they wanted, how they changed over time and really be on this journey with them. I think I didn't want to come into it with really my own set of where the story was going or really what an audience should take away. I think it's more always about the girls' experience and spending enough time with them so that what they would share and how they would feel and how we could adapt the filmmaking style and the editing style and everything around them to just allow people to connect to their experience has always been the most important thing.

Alison Stewart: I'm not going to give away too much at the end, Chad, but there's a note that says 95% of the incarcerated men who participate in this program have remained out of prison. You've been doing this family stabilization social work for more than a decade. What about this program makes it so successful?

Chad Morris: That's a great question. I think it's a unique synergy of all of the components. This isn't just an approach to try to mobilize men. That's part of my job is to mobilize them and help them find the lessons that are in their own stories. To help them reflect and practice a type of accountability that for imprisoned men, it's not always embraced when they're in a space that's not-- It's a brave environment for very different reasons. Let's just say that. That they have to be brave.

This type of accountability is something that is very necessary for them to have the conversation to reflect and find the values in their stories. I also think that it's because of the work that Angela and Girls For A Change have been so intently doing with girls to unapologetically not tell those girls no and find solutions and support their mothers because for their family units to reconnect or strengthen their connections, there's got to be an agreement on everybody's parts to turn their hearts towards each other. I think that's what makes it unique.

It's not just a program that's succinctly and only for the girls, or only for the dads or only for the moms. It's a combination of working with their entire family unit because families look different, they communicate differently, but that child is who those parents wish to be on board for. All parents want the best for their kids. I inherently believe that. I think that these parents wanted to turn their hearts towards their children. It causes both parents to practice some accountability and some consideration of each other, but also keeping that child at the forefront of the consideration. I think those are the things that make this program unique.

Alison Stewart: Yes. I just want to say that some of the moms have very different ideas about this.

Chad Morris: Certainly.

Alison Stewart: What do you say to a mom who's just not sure about the daughters seeing their dad?

Angela Patton: I think it's the same thing that Chad is doing with the fathers. We think about the fact that they are raising the girls to really prepare for womanhood, and we want to stop some of these vicious cycles that have really disrupted our community, which starts with that family unit. I have to help the mothers really find their way and thinking about, what was your relationship with your father. Who actually told you or whispered things in your ears? Were you able to have these honest, unsettling conversations with your dad? If you could go back and change anything, what would it be?

As the mothers start to think about their childhood and maybe their wounds and maybe the scars that have been put upon them, they start to sometimes think differently about what they want for their daughters and understand that the father is significant in making sure that she has a relationship with both mom and father, and understand that even though the father may not have shown up the way you want him to maybe the father and the daughter will have an opportunity to heal on their time, and they develop their own relationship that's going to be positive for the both of them.

Just doing that heart work, which is hard work, but it's necessary work, is how we get the mothers to see that you are a champion of what you want your daughter to become. We wanted to have voice and agency in her relationship with her father. How do you get out of the way and allow that nurturing to happen and not always play the momma bear? I know it's hard. It's very hard to do, but I also commend the mothers and continue to celebrate them, too, because you never want them to feel like, that I'm saying that what they're doing is wrong. It's just that what can we do differently to have better, healthy family outcomes? Because this is all for our daughters.

Alison Stewart: Chad. The Date with Dad program lasts over two months. It started in Richmond. The documentary follows dads in D.C. Chad, honestly, what do most dads who show up think is going to happen?

Chad Morris: You said, what do most dads who show up think is going to happen? In the beginning, I think that, not to give the film away, but what some men have shared, those particular men and other men, they look at it as just another opportunity to have a touch visit and a contact visit because it's counterintuitive to think that I'm going to go in this group and open up and in 10 weeks I'm automatically going to be a better dad. Who is this guy? What is he going to tell me about being a parent? I think that's an honest and fair assessment.

The approach in working with them is always to meet them as who they are outside of the sentence that they're carrying or the trial that they're awaiting or the jumpsuit that they have on, to meet them in the space of you're a man and you're a father and that we have in common. By finding those common threads, in getting their agreement to understand they're in that room and chose to be in that room before they met me because of the love of their child and wanting to see their child. That's the space that we start from. I think it's some healthy skepticism in the beginning about what the process will be like because most of us don't want to be taught about fatherhood, nor have we ever.

Most of us haven't had someone intentionally saying they're going to teach us, which is why my moniker is I'm not a teacher, I'm just a dad. I'm figuring things out just like you are. Through our collective parenting experiences, I asked the question, "What can't we figure out?" I think that starts the turning point for their thought process.

Alison Stewart: Natalie, you're the director. You're in the prison. How do the men feel about having a camera in their face?

Natalie Rae: I think that I was pleasantly surprised they were quite relaxed about it. I think there's these environments can be heavily surveyed and have a lot of people and security guards and things like that. It didn't seem like the camera brought another big element that was taking them out of the moment. Also, I think what Angela and I were really intentional about was whoever was bringing in cameras or behind the camera could connect to the fathers. Our cinematographer Cambio Michael Fernandez, he had a similar experience growing up and had a parent that was incarcerated. There was lots of moments where he could just put the camera down and join the circle and have the conversation with the fathers. He's a father himself. Angela and I would usually just stay out of the room and allow the men to have their own space and time. I think that was really important to achieving that unawareness and just openness whether the camera was on or not.

Alison Stewart: We've been hearing about the Peabody Award-winning documentary Daughters, about a group of incarcerated men and their children preparing for an emotional daddy-daughter dance. Our guests are filmmakers Natalie Rae and Angela Patton, as well as Chad Morris. We'll be back to hear more about the Date with Dad program after a short break. This is All Of It.

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Alison Stewart: Welcome back to All Of It. Before the break, we were speaking about the Peabody-winning documentary Daughters, about a prison program that aims to help incarcerated men connect to their daughters as a way to remind them that their rehabilitation is not just only important to them, but to the children who love them. We've been speaking with co-directors Natalie Rae and Angela Patton, who also leads the organization Girls For A Change, as well as Chad Morris, the fatherhood coach from the film who helps the men prepare for the program.

Before we dive back into the conversation, let's hear a clip from the film Daughters. The first voice you'll hear is Aubrey, an adorable, bright little five-year-old. When we first meet her, she's proud to show off her math skills or times tables. We hear her puzzling through some really emotionally difficult math about how many years before she gets to see her father again. Let's hear a little excerpt of her talking to her mom in her bedroom. The water you hear is a fish tank.

Aubrey: My cousin taught me my 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 timetables, but she didn't teach me my 10 timetables, and I know all my 10 timetables. I'm the smartest one in my class. My dad like rapping and I'm rapping with him, too. He made a cool song.

Natalie Rae: You miss him?

Aubrey: When he says he loved me, I'm going to say I love him more. He's coming home in seven more years.

Natalie Rae: Yes, I think so too, momma.

Aubrey: First it was nine years and then the police took away two and then it was seven. It wasn't nine or eight years. It was seven. Seven is a very close number to one, but it's going to take a long time because it's a year. I wish my dad was home already.

Alison Stewart: Now I'm going to get the cry. I'm going to get my tears out now. Get my Kleenex. Natalie, what was striking to you about the different faces we see these girls put on through the film?

Natalie Rae: It was really an organic process, meeting all four. We started with six families, and a couple of the fathers had to go to other facilities. Then these four girls were so powerful as different types of ages, really different personalities, different relationships with their fathers. Just to try to communicate like this, the range of experiences we have with our fathers. Every single father-daughter relationship will be different. From that imaginative nature of Aubrey, with so much sparkle in her eye and optimism, but also blending her reality a little bit. She's so young that she's still understanding life at that time.

Then you have Ja'Ana and Santana. Santana has a lot of resentment when we first meet her, to her father, who's been out of her life for most of it. Then Ja'Ana, who actually would like to meet her father, she doesn't really remember him. She hasn't been able to go into the jail to visit him. She expresses this wanting to connect, but more apathetic. She doesn't really know him. Then Raziah, who is a little bit more at a loss at that moment in her life, and is really sad and struggling with depression as she's 15, 16, and processing it in a different way.

The mothers would always talk about this storm that the girls were in, and they were at different phases of this cycle. I think what's hopefully beautiful about the film is that you do get to see them come out of that and anyone stuck in one place. It's moving. People have ups and downs, and a lot of the girls and the fathers do move through things together.

Alison Stewart: With Aubrey's father, Chad, we see how proud he is of her, how she's doing so well in school. He also gets emotional about having all that pride and not being able to show it in the way that maybe he knows that she needs. What are some of the other issues that come to the forefront for these fathers as part of the process?

Chad Morris: The disconnectivity being they are separated from their families, I think they register as well, especially with the changes in policies, jail is not an easy span of time to spend away from your families. I think they're registering so many different emotions that taking the time to become accountable for what they're feeling. I can't speak to their individual experiences per se. They're their own best advocates, but what I can say is working with them is very intentional, to start from a place of self-reflection so that they can get those feelings organized.

Part of what you see in the film is them just expressing themselves. It's not often that men who are in prison are in a place where they are encouraged to be sensitive, encouraged to be vulnerable, encouraged to relax because this is not the face or the filter that they have to operate through when they're spending their time outside of that room. I think they register a whole span of emotions because most every man that spoke expressed the want to be there for their child. They expressed the want for them to do something different and for their children to have different opportunities than they did and just being able to stay connected, which is already hard when a man is dealing with incarceration.

It's hard for the family as well because they're in a type of incarceration by being separated from their families. I think they're registering a whole myriad of emotions. The goal is always to talk to them to the place, by being accountable to themselves and truthful with themselves and renewing their commitment to show up as best they can because they do have varied and different circumstances. I think the film does a very good job of showing you in a short amount of time what the span of those emotions look like.

Alison Stewart: Angela, one of the other little girls, Santana, is about 10 when we meet her. Let's listen to a little bit from the documentary Daughters and you get Santana's sense of frustration. Let's listen.

Santana: I would tell him that I'm sick of seeing myself cry because the stuff that you do, and it wasn't my decision, it was your decision to make and not mine. Next, when you get out of jail, next time you go back in jail, not going to even shed one single tear. Done shedding tears because he want to keep doing bad stuff that he shouldn't be doing. It's not okay. It's affecting me, mostly me.

Alison Stewart: Angela. You see that Santana is really trying to tough it out, but then when she and her father get to hug each other, she lets out this big exuberant, "Daddy."

Angela Patton: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Do you see that combination of feeling among the girls?

Angela Patton: Absolutely. It's an emotional rollercoaster.

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Angela Patton: What I do love about Santana is that she wasn't allowing that to define her. What you actually see in the film is even through her anger and her pain, she's found ways to cope through her best dance. She's coping by making sure that she's venting about what she's feeling. That doesn't mean that she doesn't love this man. She just saying, "Man, I need you to do better for me because I know that you can." I just love the fact that this film actually gave her a space to be able to just share that. One of the things that Natalie has shared in some of our past interviews that I appreciate is how Santana said, "I have more to say," and Natalie and our camera crew just stayed with her and just allowed her to just pour all of that out.

She just needed to be heard. She never said she did not love him. She never said, "I'm not going to go to this dance." She just was like, "I need for you to understand what I'm feeling and to be accountable for it." Then when she was able to see him, what you also captured is she is actually becoming this great burst of leadership. She's asking him questions. Sometimes she didn't want to dance because she wanted to have a conversation, the one that a lot of times, unfortunately, we don't have a safe space to have. I'm always just in awe about her confidence, to be so honest and raw. Then I'm hoping that when her father hears these conversations, that he actually listens actively to his daughter and shows up and does the exact thing that Mark said that he was, and that was her superhero, and that's what she was asking him to become.

Alison Stewart: Natalie, please correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't say why the men were in prison. Is that correct?

Natalie Rae: Correct.

Alison Stewart: Why did you make that decision?

Natalie Rae: All of these girls deserve love and connection to their parents. If these children are innocent and growing up, they shouldn't be suffering the consequences, no matter what their parents did or did not do. The film really focuses on that father-daughter relationship and through everything, through the way that Chad works with the fathers, they never talk about sentences. It's about them as human beings, this parent-child relationship, that connection. Everything else doesn't matter.

Alison Stewart: Chad, we see the fathers and the daughters at the dance. There's this looming idea that this is going to be over one day. How do you prepare the men for after the dance when they're separated again?

Chad Morris: I think what you see in the film is a snapshot of the conversations that we've had. This was over the course of 10 weeks before the dance and then continues for several weeks after the dance. Just because of that one fact, that once you're on this emotional roller coaster, we're building on each conversation that we have predicated on prior conversation because we're continuing to build trust, not just with each other, but trust within ourselves that we can be who we need to be to show up. While they're looking forward to that high, conversations that you don't see do let the men know that, "Hey, I know the journey that we're going to be on. While I don't know your individual reactions, I understand that your love for your child is as pure as you've professed and so eloquently shared, that this is going to be an emotional high."

We use the word roller coaster intentionally because I don't think there's a more adequate word to describe it. This is why we have these intentional conversations. This is why we have those conversations after the fact because each man registers it differently. When they go back to their pods or their cells, they don't have a person, most likely, that they can confide in, that they can talk to and process those emotions. It's very necessary to process them because, at times of highly emotional activity, those are times when we can also make an imprint in our minds to try to register change.

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Chad Morris: That's the hope for them. This is why it's very intentional, how we structure those conversations and how they build each one. Unfortunately, you don't see all of the conversations, but it was definitely an effort to make sure we help them understand that journey so that when they felt it, it'd be, how you feel is a surprise but knowing that you're going to do it, you can't brace yourself but we're there to make sure we keep going.

Alison Stewart: That was my conversation with Natalie Rae, Chad Morris, and Angela Patton, the team behind the documentary film Daughters, which won a Peabody Award yesterday. It's streaming on Netflix.