Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Tomorrow night is the first night of Passover. Families all over our area and all over the world will begin preparing their Seders, spicing their broths, balling their matzo meal, tenderizing their briskets, practicing the four questions that begin, "Why is this night different from other nights?" We will leave the liturgical answers to that question to Judaica scholars. If you want this Passover to be tastier than other Passovers, we have you covered. We're talking about what to cook for your Seder meals, how to give some of your old favorites a little extra pizazz.

Joining me now, please welcome cookbook author and self-described Modern Mensch, Jake Cohen, author of Jew-Ish and I Could Nosh. It's so nice to see you, Jake.

Jake Cohen: It's a pleasure to be back.

Alison Stewart: When you were a kid, what did Passover mean to you?

Jake Cohen: I grew up in the city, in Queens. I had two working parents. That was not very conducive for family dinners and really gathering around the table. These holidays, especially the two nights of Passover, were really the moments in which the entire family stopped. There was this focus on abundance and food and really gathering every single person at the table over a huge meal.

Alison Stewart: Food is often symbolic in Jewish traditions. Passover uses matzo to symbolize hardship. Around Hanukkah, oily food is symbolic as well. Have you thought about Jewish traditions in your life and how they've helped shape the food and the role of cooking in your life?

Jake Cohen: Yes. Really, I think my love of cooking, it's used as a vessel for connection. When we look at Jewish rituals and these holidays, it takes it one step further where it's not only connecting with those you love but then using it as a conduit for conversations. Passover is obviously this incredible opportunity to gather everyone in your life, talk about the value of freedom, the hardships of oppression, and how we all need to strive for a better, freer world. To have food be that beautiful representation of that, it's the best starting point.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, what are you cooking for Passover? Our lines are open.. 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. We want to hear about your favorite holiday recipes for the Seder table or inventive ways that you use matzo, or maybe you've got a kid-friendly recipe, you can share it with all of us. 212-433-96922. 212-433-WNYC. Oh, our phone lines are filling up. While we get those all ready to go, you have a new cookbook coming in September called Dinner Party Animal.

Jake Cohen: Yes.

Alison Stewart: I love the name.

Jake Cohen: Thank you. Thank you for that.

Alison Stewart: We'll have you on when that comes on. What does it look like to infuse your party animalness into a tradition or a vibe that could be somewhat solemn?

Jake Cohen: You can really hold both truths at the same time, where we're gathering over really hard times. It's a hard world, and that's never going to change. We still have this call to find connection, this call to find beauty, this call to find peace, even throughout that. To be able to create even just one evening of solace where you're able to be with your family, create nods to the difficulties in this world, but also create the gratitude around a meal shared with those you love, that's even better. Obviously, people get very stressed, which is why I love coming on and just having people throw in their questions because I got you.

Alison Stewart: I got you.

Jake Cohen: That's why the new book, it's all dinner party menus with your grocery list, your timeline, everything, so everyone can just take a breath and relax beause cooking should be fun.

Alison Stewart: Right. We're putting on the calendar for September. Let's talk to Ariel, who is calling in from Greenpoint. Thanks for making the call. What do you have to say, Ariel?

Ariel: Hi. I'm hosting, a pre-Seder Seder here tonight for 20 people. I'm trying to make the matzo balls ahead of time and then just drop them in the soup when it's time to eat. I'm not really sure how to store them from now till then to keep them fluffy and airy.

Jake Cohen: Oh, I got you. All right, here's the deal. Whether you cook them now or in a little bit, what I always do, cook your balls in a separate pot, never in the broth, because it'll make it cloudy. Then you let them cool completely in that pot of water, and then you truly can just put the lid on and pop it into the fridge if you have the space. If not, you could also transfer it to a Tupperware. When you do that, you want to use that cooking water. It's going to be cloudy and gross, but it is what you want to make sure that your balls don't dry out. That's not cursing, but you get the gist. Then you get to reheat it just right in the pot on the stove and pop them right into your soup.

If you do it literally a couple hours in advance, you can just keep it on the stove and let it come to room temp. It's not going to be crazy or really have intense food safety concerns. If you're going to do it anything more than a few hours, then, yes, pop it in the fridge.

Alison Stewart: What is the right size of the matzo ball?

Jake Cohen: Yes. Great question. To me, About a third of a cup, raw of your batter because then they pop up in the pot. Really, the big issue is that you want to be having one ball that satiates you, two if you're feeling crazy, wild. Anything that's going to be too big, we're just getting to comical deli culture.

Alison Stewart: Are you a believer in adding anything to the matzo ball to make it have a little pizzazz?

Jake Cohen: Yes. Well, obviously, the classic is schmaltz. If you're using schmaltz and you're doing the right thing. Sometimes it can be difficult for people to find or have. Though, I also say make your chicken soup first, and when you chill it, you could skim off the fat from the top and use that for your matzo balls. I love tons of dill. Tons of dill is the most important thing.

Alison Stewart: Oh, interesting.

Jake Cohen: I think dill is the most important ingredient in any chicken soup and any matzo ball.

Alison Stewart: I wish somebody could see you because you were like, "Dill is the thing." Your neck is going. Your shoulders are going.

Jake Cohen: Dill is it. Truly. When people are like, "Oh, I don't like dill--" There was a guy I went on a date with once. He's like, "I hate dill." Done. Goodbye.

Alison Stewart: Swipe left.

Jake Cohen: Over. Exactly. I would say dill. There are new matzo balls in the upcoming book. I really play around with infusing a lot more flavor with garlic.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Jake Cohen, food influencer and cookbook author. He is helping us out with our Passover cooking. What are you cooking for Passover? Our lines are open. 212-433-9692. 212-433-WNYC, or you can hit us up on our socials @allofitwnyc. Let's go to Laura, who's calling in from Tarrytown. Hi, Laura, thanks for calling All Of It.

Laura: Hi.

Alison Stewart: Hey, what's up?

Laura: Thanks for taking my call. Well, I'm cooking an Italian Passover meal from Italian Jewish tradition. I'll give you just a couple of things that are special. One, instead of gefilte fish, we do a fish galantine, which is a striped bass steamed with spices and then molded with the broth. Then two desserts that are called [unintelligible 00:07:36], which is from Livorno, my city in Italy. It's a custard made with almonds, sugar, and eggs. You have to cook in very special ways. Shouldn't boil and shouldn't make a frittata with it, but just the cream, and Pizzarella Romane, which is also another dish from Rome. A dessert then made with matzo, cocoa, pignoli nuts, and raisins, and then you fry it and put honey on top. Those are the special things.

Alison Stewart: That sounds special to me. I appreciate you calling. Let's talk to Erica, who I think is in Harlem. Hey, Erica, thanks for calling All Of It.

Erica: Hi. How are you?

Alison Stewart: Doing great.

Erica: I've a big secret that I learned from my Nana Molly 40 years ago is that you need a pullet chicken. You need an old chicken to make great chicken soup. Not a young chicken, but a pullet. You can get it at a kosher butcher, but it has to be an old chicken. The schmaltz in the matzo balls, and also seltzer in the matzo balls-

Jake Cohen: Yes.

Erica: -if you need water, can make them nice and fluffy.

Jake Cohen: Always seltzer.

Alison Stewart: Thank you for the tip. Is she right?

Jake Cohen: Yes. 100%. 100% about all of it.

Alison Stewart: Let's get into making brisket.

Jake Cohen: Mine's literally in the oven right now. I leave here and I go home and it's in the oven waiting for me.

Alison Stewart: What is the key to making your brisket so it just has that pull-apartness to it.

Jake Cohen: Again, everyone wants the get-rich-quick speed of light, like, "What's the secret?" Really, it's about the cook time. You want to have it braised low and slow. Nothing higher than 325 degrees Fahrenheit. It really should be taking somewhere between three and four hours, depending on the size of your brisket. Again, that's for a 5-6 pound brisket. People be like, "Oh, yes, I took your recipe, but I used a 1.5-pound brisket and it fell apart." I'm like, "Yes, because you cooked it much longer." You do the fork test. After about three hours for that size brisket, you put in a fork and really it should go in and come out easily without a ton of resistance. Then the most important part is you let it cool completely. Then I chill it overnight whole and slice it against the grain. You're going to see the striations of the meat. You want to cut against it so that you have these beautiful pull-apart slices. When you do it whole, everything really sticks together. It reheats in the sauce very easily, and it has that beautiful pull-apart quality. If you try to carve it hot, it's going to fall apart.

Alison Stewart: Ah, day before, who would have thought?

Jake Cohen: And it's already done. That way you're done. All you've got to do is reheat it.

Alison Stewart: Glad we're doing this today. Here's a question for you. I'm a goy who knows my way around a pot roast, but I've been wanting to cook an old-fashioned brisket like my Jewish neighbors might enjoy. What's a good resource for me, how to learn to do that from scratch if I don't have a bubby of my own?

Jake Cohen: Oh my God. I'm. I'm your guy. I would say. The thing that I love the most, the thing that I find is probably the biggest reward to the work that I do, is seeing how people absorb these recipes and they become part of their own family's traditions now. I have these two recipes. In my first book, I have a French onion brisket. In my last book, I have this brisket that's focused on hardcore umami flavors. It's roasted mushrooms with balsamic and lots of tomato. Really, you just get to have fun with it. You get to do whatever you want. I would say play around with different recipes. Keep it very similar to a pot roast. It's not that different. It's just a different cut of meat and occasionally different aromatics. We're definitely very allium-heavy in Jewish cooking, so lots of onions.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Jake Cohen. We are talking about Passover cooking. Getting ready for your Seder. Do you have questions for Jake Cohen, or you want to tell us what you are making at this moment? Our number is 212-433-9692. 212-433-WNYC. You can call in and join us on air, or you can text that number. We've got more calls coming in. I wanted to ask you, essentially about the matzo.

Jake Cohen: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Is there an upside to making it for yourself, the ground matzo, or is store-bought okay?

Jake Cohen: For matzo meal?

Alison Stewart: matzo meal, yes.

Jake Cohen: There are two things. Making your own matzo, it's a whole thing. has to be 18 minutes from when the water touches the flour to coming out of the oven. It's a fun thing to do with kids. I did it in Hebrew school. It's something that everyone loves to do at some point. Don't be a hero. Matzo meal, however, oh, my God. My grandmother, I have this video of her, and she's just going on this tangent about why would anyone buy matzo meal? You just put it in the food processor and you make it yourself, and it's cheaper. You could do it either way. There is no "one is better, one is worse." It's just one extra step.

Alison Stewart: For the uninitiated, what are the rules around flour, grains, et cetera?

Jake Cohen: Oh, my God. There's so many. The thing is we can't have leavened bread, so really there is no flour products. Also, there's this other group of items that are similar to grain called kidney oat, which depending on if you are Mizrahi or Sephardic versus Ashkenazi, the Mizrahi and Sephardic communities are okay with kidney oat, which include rice, beans, legumes, a lot of things that Ashkenazi also don't eat. That means we're not having rice, we're not having beans, we're not having corn, we're not having soy, so no soy sauce. There's just so many little things that you just don't think about, like mustard. "Oh, well, no, mustard seeds are kidney oat. Can't have mustard." You forget.

I would say the high-level thing I always love to remind people is that this is a restrictive diet for a week to really allow us to constantly be thinking about what is the meaning of Passover. Oftentimes people are looking to just recreate the same things we eat normally, but make it kosher for Passover. To me, that's such a loophole. That's the exact same as "I'm a vegan, but I've created the fake bacon and the this and the that." Yes, that's great, but it's also taking away from the core of why we're doing this.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Paul Adam, who is calling in from the East Village. Hi, Paul Adam. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Paul Adam: Hi. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it, Alison. Pesach Sameach. Happy Passover.

Jake Cohen: Happy Passover.

Paul Adam: I'm prepping the place as we speak actually. I have yet to burn the Chametz. That's one of my favorite parts of Passover, honestly. Burning. You burn all the remaining leavened wheat and grain products the day before Passover. I'm going to my Rabbi Seder the first night, but traditionally, you're supposed to have two Seders.

Jake Cohen: Yes.

Paul Adam: My family and I are having a very small, quaint, minuscule-- I didn't really care, honestly, this year, because I needed to have a Seder. We're having fish, and we're just celebrating with me and my family a very small second night.

Jake Cohen: I love that.

Alison Stewart: That's lovely. Thank you so much for calling in. Let's talk to Rebecca from Englewood, New Jersey. Hey, Rebecca, thanks for making the time to. All Of It. I understand you have a question for Jake.

Rebecca: Yes, thank you for taking my call. Jake, do you have a solution for matzo farfel? Is there any way you've ever done it where it's good?

Jake Cohen: That's a great question.

Alison Stewart: Okay, first of all, explain what a matzo farfel is.

Jake Cohen: It's almost like the soup crackers of matzo. Again, it can be done in a couple of different variations. How I've always had them is my aunt would do this Passover chicken, apricot chicken, which is just you make a stuffing with the matzo farfel and stuff it into chicken, and then cover it in mayo and apricot jam. You throw it in the oven, and it's delicious. To me, matzo farfel, the same thing with all matzo, it's such a blank canvas, so it has to do with the preparation and the seasoning. If you really build up the flavor, caramelized onions, mushrooms, herbs, lemon, it's going to soak it all up. Then the most important thing is you need to add in some liquid so it's not dry, but not too much, or else it becomes mush. Treat it like you're making your Thanksgiving stuffing.

Alison Stewart: Good luck. Let's talk to Gabby from Kerhonkson in the Hudson Valley. Hey, Gabby. How are you?

Gabby: Hey, Alison, Jake. Nice to speak to you.

Alison Stewart: Nice to speak to you.

Gabby: I am actually cooking my brisket as we speak. Perhaps you hear it sizzling. I'm hosting nine people for our Seder on Sunday night. My other favorite thing to make are almond flour brownies, which I make every year for the Seder.

Alison Stewart: Well, congratulations on cooking a great meal.

Jake Cohen: There you go. I love brownies. They're such an easy dessert to make kosher for Passover.

Alison Stewart: Well, this is interesting because someone wrote to us, says, "I'm going to a Seder on Sunday. I'm not Jewish. Haven't been to Seder in a long time. I'm planning on bringing a flourless chocolate cake for dessert, but is there a main or side dish I should be bringing? Help." What do you think?

Jake Cohen: This is where I'm going to say it depends on where you're going. I like to be in control of the menu. I have people bring desserts. Some people want help throughout the entire meal where they just want to make the brisket and the soup, and they want all the vegetable sides just made by their friends and family. So ask. Then once you get that far, it's amazing. If they want you to do dessert, a flourless chocolate cake's amazing. Also, I'm a big lover of matzo brittle. Very easy dessert. I make it all the time. You make a quick butterscotch that you bake with matzo and then cover it with chocolate and whatever toppings you like. It's one of those things where kids love it, adults love it, everyone loves it and you can make it long in advance, which is a great type of dessert. Then vegetable sides. You can't go wrong with, really, just about anything roasted. I do root vegetables roasted with date syrup. That just becomes this beautiful sweet and salty side that people go crazy for.

Alison Stewart: Ooh, what kind of vegetables?

Jake Cohen: Oh, definitely Brussels sprouts. Brussels sprouts are the go-to. Then from there, I just roasted asparagus. Same deal with the apricot preserves. Little sweet, little tang.

Alison Stewart: I love the date syrup. That's a great idea. Let's talk to Nina, who's calling in from Freeport. Hey, Nina, thanks for calling All Of It.

Nina: Hi. Well, I just finished making my kneidlach. What I do is I sculpt them. Some of them I make into bricks, and some of them I make into faces so that you have a face staring up at you from your plate. Occasionally, I will make little pyramids. Today what I did was I took some of the carrot from the soup and I hid them in the middle of some of the kneidlach.

Jake Cohen: I love that.

Alison Stewart: All right. From the Black girl sitting in the chair across from you?

Jake Cohen: It's the Yiddish term for matzo balls.

Alison Stewart: Thank you.

Jake Cohen: Incredible. I love the creativity. What are some desserts you can bring? You've mentioned the flourless chocolate cake. What are some other desserts people could bring?

Jake Cohen: The one that I do, and the thing that makes it so good is I add sumac to my flourless chocolate cake.

Alison Stewart: Sumac

Jake Cohen: It's just a dry ground berry. It doesn't really add flavor, but it adds acidity. I find that it pairs with chocolate so beautifully. In the same way that we add espresso powder in brownie recipes, sumac does the exact same thing by adding acidity. It just brightens up everything. It's one of my favorite things. Anything that is leavened by meringue, so meringue cookies, but also just flourless cakes or sponges that really are just based on anything that uses whipped egg whites to give it some lift.

I have this insane layered almond cake from my first book. It's a response to the fact that so many people end up with a birthday during Passover and they never get to have a birthday cake, so I made kosher for Passover birthday cakes for people.

Then I would say one of the more popular recipes for my first book is Hadji Bada, which are these Iraqi almond cookies. They're made with just a few ingredients almond flour, egg whites, a little rose water, and sugar. They just are so chewy, delicious, and very easy.

Alison Stewart: What if you have little guys running around, you want to put them to work? Where can I put them in the kitchen? What's a good recipe for them?

Jake Cohen: I would say something like that. The matzo brittle is amazing for topping, for decorating. I wouldn't get them involved with hot butterscotch. Once you have the chocolate spread to have them decorate it, oh, my God, they have so much fun. One of the combinations that I love is rainbow sprinkles and crushed potato chips. That has become a really fun, kid-friendly dessert for Passover.

Alison Stewart: What are you excited to prepare?

Jake Cohen: I got my brisket in the oven. I already made my chicken soup. I've got to make the matzo balls tonight and get all the veg ready. What I'm really excited about is gathering my family, my roommate's family, some friends that don't have a place to go. It really becomes this mismatch of the people I love in my life.

Alison Stewart: Jake Cohen, his new cookbook is coming out in September. We'll see you then, for sure. Thank you so much for helping us out with Passover.

Jake Cohen: My pleasure.