Alison Stewart: In the new film Conclave, the Pope has died, and a group of cardinals are convened to select a new one. Factions are formed on papal and political lines. One candidate represents staunch traditionalism. Another is more center-right conservative. Another espouses homophobic views, and one newcomer enters the fray with exceptionally liberal views. Actor Stanley Tucci plays Aldo Bellini, an American cardinal who champions progressivism. He says he doesn't really want the position, until he does. Here's a clip from early in the film to which Tucci's character, Cardinal Bellini, is speaking to Cardinal-Dean Lawrence, played by Ralph Fiennes.

[playing a clip from Conclave]

Cardinal Lawrence: Father Bellini, Aldo.

Cardinal Bellini: Am I the last one?

Cardinal Lawrence: Not quite. How are you?

Cardinal Bellini: Oh, well, you know, fairly dreadful. Have you seen the papers? Apparently it's already decided it's to be me.

Cardinal Lawrence: And I happen to agree with them.

Cardinal Bellini: What if I don't want it? No sane man would want the papacy.

Cardinal Lawrence: Some of our colleagues seem to want it.

Cardinal Bellini: What if I know in my heart that I am not worthy?

Cardinal Lawrence: You are more worthy than any of us.

Cardinal Bellini: I'm not.

Cardinal Lawrence: Well, then tell your supporters not to vote for you, to pass the chalice.

Cardinal Bellini: And then go to him? I could never live with myself.

Alison Stewart: Conclave is nominated for the Critics Choice Award with 11 nominations. It's also nominated for several Golden Globes, including Best Picture. It's now available to stream on Peacock. Please welcome Stanley Tucci. Hi, Stanley.

Stanley Tucci: Hi, how are you?

Alison Stewart: I'm doing well, thank you. And director Edward Berger, who won an Oscar for Best International Film for All Quiet on the Western Front. Nice to meet you, Edward.

Edward Berger: Hey there.

Alison Stewart: Hey there. Edward, you started thinking about Conclave around the time, or even a little bit before All Quiet on the Western Front. You said that went quickly, All Quiet, Conclave took a while. What took a while? Why did it take a while?

Edward Berger: Some movies sort of have a dynamic and they just happen quickly. All Quiet was sort of a timely film at the time, and this became timely right now, so it's the perfect timing, actually, for both of them. It's just, you know, getting the script right, finding wonderful actors like Stanley Tucci. He wasn't available for years, and I tried to find-- You know, like followed him around. I needed him to be in the film, and sometimes you scheduled your movies around fantastic people like Stanley.

Alison Stewart: So Stanley, you weren't around for years--

Stanley Tucci: The man is a pathological liar, but I love him.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Well, this is going to be interesting then. You read the book La Fortuna, when did you hear about the film adaptation?

Stanley Tucci: Well, yes, I read-- Excuse me. Read Conclave about four years ago. It was during the last election, so I remember very distinctly when I read it. I was sort of sequestered in Spain making a television series, and I just loved it, because I love Robert Harris's writing. Anyway, a couple of years later, the script came to me, and I was more than thrilled, also more than thrilled that Edward was directing it. And then all of the pieces came together, as Edward said, because I think the timing was absolutely appropriate because it mirrors a lot of what's happening in our world politically.

Alison Stewart: I'm sorry, I said you read-- You were filming La Fortuna.

Stanley Tucci: Yes, I was filming La Fortuna.

Alison Stewart: I'm sorry, my mistake.

Stanley Tucci: That's all right. I didn't want to correct you.

Alison Stewart: Well, I appreciate it, but please do. You know, you never know. When we meet Bellini early on, he's the Cardinal-Dean's person. He's his guy, as we heard in the intro clip. What are they united by?

Stanley Tucci: What are who united by?

Alison Stewart: Bellini and Lawrence, what are they united by? Why are they friends in a way?

Stanley Tucci: Well, you know, sometimes you become friends-- You don't know why you become friends with people sometimes. You may have different views politically or aesthetically, but morally, they are twins, I think, and I think that that's what brings them together. Now, I say that because you can be moral twins with someone because you trust them, but the key thing is that you have to trust yourself. And that's what this movie is about so much, is about trusting yourself and knowing yourself. As it turns out, that that trust of yourself and that trust between them, it becomes slightly broken because of the machinations that are going on. But in the end, their friendship succeeds, their friendship goes on because Cardinal Bellini makes an admission that he understands that he-- Well, I won't give it away, let's say that.

Alison Stewart: Fair.

Stanley Tucci: It's really about friendship, it's about trust and love, and sharing a moral ground.

Alison Stewart: Edward, why was Stanley the right actor to play Bellini?

Edward Berger: Well, Stanley has a wonderful-- You know, I cast Ralph and Stanley at about the same time-- Maybe Stanley a tiny bit before, because you want to make sure that whoever is right opposite Ralph is the right person, and it felt that Stanley is a wonderful person. I believe they could be friends. And I believed, and I saw them as-- While they clearly have sympathy towards each other, they feel very different, you know? One is a very, I would say, internal person, and the other feels a bit more communicative, and that felt like a friction that was very interesting to the friendship of these two characters. And I believe that he could absolutely represent someone with those political views.

Stanley Tucci: I think the thing, Edward, what I want to-- It's interesting you say that, because Ralph and I have become friends in real life. We were friendly prior to this, but it has only bonded us. We are very different people, and yet when we're together, it's great fun, and I'm a huge admirer.

Edward Berger: Yes. And it felt like, you know, two wonderful actors, if they meet each other, there's a certain wanting to be there for each other, wanting to be good for each other, wanting to be as good as the other, better as the other one. It's a little bit of a friendly-- not battle, but something like-- You know, if I have a good discussion with an intelligent partner, that person makes me more intelligent, and that feels like with Ralph and Stanley, they egg each other on. And they would be. You know, you just want to be really good if you're across from Stanley Tucci, and you want to be really good if you're across from Ralph Fiennes, and so that just felt inherently right. And one is American, the other is British, that comes with very different qualities, and they have very different acting styles that I think can complement each other beautifully.

Alison Stewart: Edward, the movie Conclave is a drama in many ways, but occasionally, it's amusing. There are times when I'm amused watching it. How did you figure out how to use the humor and the juiciness of the script when you first read it?

Edward Berger: Again, it's-- A lot of the actors bring the humor to the film. I mean, when you read the script, obviously it's a thriller, and it's dramatic, but it's-- I immediately had images that would break the piousness of the church, that would break the piousness of these jobs that these men have, and the old buildings and everything. So it just felt like, okay, if I put an espresso machine into the middle of-- Basically, into the Sistine Chapel, into those chambers, if I put a vape into that, if I put cigarettes or iPhones, that is unexpected, and that could come with laughter. Then you get the right people who interpret that, and they have fun doing it, and that fun transmits to the screen, and the audience responds to it.

And the biggest-- It's actually a surprise, I didn't expect it as much, I expected that people would be satisfied, but Isabella Rossellini gets sort of a scene applause in many cinemas because she does a curtsy. She tells these men off, basically, and I think no one's dared to do it, and so the audience feels relieved. She speaks their mind, and so they applaud her for saying that. And so it's really gratifying when that happens.

Alison Stewart: Stanley, I'm interested in how you think about the tone of the project overall versus what you have to bring to the character.

Stanley Tucci: Well, they're part and parcel. I mean, I think you have to fit-- As an actor, you have to fit into the tone of the film. If you don't, if you're playing a tertiary role or a secondary role or whatever, and the director-- First of all, the script, second of all, the director, they set the tone very clearly, and you must be a part of that. If you're not, you're just kind of showing off or trying to be different, or trying to get attention or something like that, separate yourself, and you can't. Your job as an actor is to fit into the story perfectly and to tell that story the way it's meant to be told or the way the director has chosen for it to be told, and that's it. As I said, if you try to do something different, then it's a bit show-offy.

Alison Stewart: My guests are actor Stanley Tucci and director Edward Berger. Were discussing Conclave, about all the machinations behind selecting a new Pope. Let's listen to another clip from Conclave. Bellini claims he doesn't want the papacy, but when people start voting for Lawrence and taking votes away from him, his tune changes a little bit. Let's layer a clip featuring you and Ralph Fiennes.

[playing a clip from Conclave]

Cardinal Bellini: I thought we had your support. If we liberals are not united, Tedesco will become Pope. You have no idea how bad it became, Thomas. The way he and his circle attacked the Holy Father towards the end. The smears, the leaks to the press, it was savage. He fought him every single day of his pontificate. And now that he's dead, he wants to destroy his life's work. If Tedesco becomes pope, he will undo 60 years of progress.

Cardinal Lawrence: You talk as if you're the only alternative, but Adeyemi has the wind behind him.

Cardinal Bellini: Adeyemi? Adeyemi, the man who believes that homosexuals should be sent to prison in this world and hell in the next. Adeyemi is not the answer to anything, and you know it. If you want to defeat Tedesco--

Cardinal Lawrence: Defeat who? This is a Conclave, Aldo. It's not a war.

Cardinal Bellini: It is a war, and you have to commit to a side.

Alison Stewart: Why does Bellini at first say that he doesn't really want it, Stanley?

Stanley Tucci: He thinks he doesn't want it because he doesn't know himself yet, which he says later in the film. He doesn't know himself yet. He thinks he knows him-- We all think we know ourselves, but we don't, which is the beautiful part of growing older and the awful part of growing older-- [chuckles] The not knowing, and suddenly, the realizations or epiphanies are what create regrets. So I think that he thinks he doesn't want it because he thinks he's purer than he is, but we all do.

Alison Stewart: Interesting. Before the voting begins, Edward, Cardinal Lawrence delivers a speech to all the cardinals in which he says, "Let us hope the next Pope is one who has doubts." How is that message central to the theme of the film?

Edward Berger: Well, I think it's-- He says the next Pope, I hope, is someone who has doubts, is because the world is full of certainty. We are surrounded by people who say, "This is the way. That's the way." But actually, no one knows in faith, or politics, or anything, even directing movies. To me, the expression of doubt invites discussion and invites discourse with others, and hearing other people, and then making the wisest decision based on advice and on listening within yourself, rather than shouting the loudest. And that's Ralph's internal journey. He says, basically, "I have difficulty with prayer." He goes through a crisis, he doubts his profession, he doubts his faith. And it's almost like I'm saying like, "I have difficulty believing in the power of the camera," or you saying, "I have difficulty believing in my words." You go through this existential crisis, and you start to embrace doubts, and in the end, he comes out having overcome that and embracing the possibility of a future that brings change to his organization. That's the wonderful arc that he goes through.

Alison Stewart: Stanley, you grew up in the Catholic Church right up in Westchester. How has your relationship with religion changed since childhood, and even changed in doing this film?

Stanley Tucci: Doing the film was interesting, because I was revisiting certain aspects of the Catholic Church that I remember. Yes, I was raised Catholic, went to church every day, made my first communion, my catechism was confirmed, but by the age of 18, 19, I chose not to go to church any longer. I don't think that-- To me, I'm not a religious person, and that's my choice. If someone is Catholic and they believe in Christ, great. If someone is a Buddhist, if someone is a Muslim, if someone is whatever, great. Just don't force it upon me, that's all. If it makes you happy and it helps you be a stronger, better person, that's great. That is the only issue I have with a lot of organized religion today, which is-- it seems to be, if you don't believe what I believe, then you're a bad person. I don't believe that. I. My late wife was a secular humanist, and it made a bit more sense to me. I'm a little bit like Groucho Marx in the sense that I don't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member.

Alison Stewart: Edward, you filmed in Rome. Was that always the plan?

Edward Berger: Yes, it was. Of course, we evaluated other places for financial reasons, because obviously, you want to shoot this movie in Rome. But in the end, Rome became such an important element to the shooting and to the atmosphere of the film, and it influenced the film tremendously. Not only the architecture, but also the people and the experiences we had there. For example, when you wake up in the morning, you have your coffee there and you look out the window, and you see a nun smoking a cigarette on the street, or two archbishops having a coffee in the cafe downstairs, and you realize they're just people going to work. And that humanity became the main driving force for the film. That became the movie, trying to discover the humanity within Ralph, Stanley, John Lithgow, Lucian Msamati, all the actors in the movie and their characters.

Alison Stewart: The movie came out a little over a week after the US general election. Germany's chancellor lost the vote of confidence yesterday, which leaves it in the hands of a caretaker government until next year. Stanley, how have the messages of this movie taken on a new meaning for you, given recent political events?

Stanley Tucci: I don't know if the movie has a message-- as much as it just simply shows the machinations of what's happening and the political intrigue, I can't say it has a message. If you take a message from it, that's up to you. It lays out who these people are and how the Catholic Church deals with the choosing of a new pope. I think, obviously, we're on a sort of precipice politically in America and throughout the world. The world has not not been here before, however-- I don't know. It's simply because we're living through it and it's not in the past. We're not watching documentaries about it that are in black and white. We're here, and it's in full color, and we're seeing it unfold before us, it's very scary. I think that the more people are able to communicate, the better things are. However, a lot of that communication, because of technology, is polluted, distorted, unreal, so we've lost not only-- What we've lost is a sense of what's real and what isn't real because of where we are technologically, and that will obviously affect us emotionally and on the ground. So does this speak to what's happening now? Yes, it does, but I don't think it tries to signal anything.

Alison Stewart: The name of the movie is Conclave. You may stream it now on Peacock. My guests have been Edward Berger, the director, and Stanley Tucci, the actor. Thank you very much for your time today.

Stanley Tucci: Thank you.

Edward Berger: Thank you so much.

Stanley Tucci: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Grammy-winning percussionist Zakir Hussain spent a career bringing the sounds of Indian classical music into the conversation. He died this week at the age of 73. Coming up, we'll celebrate his life and revisit my earlier conversation with him. Stay with us.