Alison Stewart: This is All Of It, I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in Soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here. On today's show, Leah Koch is the owner of The Ripped Bodice bookstore, and she'll join us to talk about romance novels. Chef and psychologist Helen Goh is here to talk about her debut cookbook, which is called, Baking and the Meaning of Life. We'll hear some New Orleans jazz, live in our studio with musician Julie Benko and her new album. It's called Euphonic Gumbo. That's the plan. So let's get this started with a book called, Choreplay: The Marriage-Saving Magic of Getting Your Head Out of Your Ass.

[music]

Alison Stewart: After more than a decade together, comedian Jordan Carlos realized his marriage might be in jeopardy. Part of the problem, Jordan realized he wasn't pulling his weight around the house as a partner or as a dad. Jordan was forced to recognize the invisible labor his wife was doing and take on some of those responsibilities. Now he's hoping to help other men with his brand new book, Choreplay: The Marriage-Saving Magic of Getting Your Head Out of Your Ass.

The book is equal parts heartfelt, honest, and hilarious. In it, Jordan writes, "Arguably speaking, there is a 75% chance that what ends a marriage may very well be that pile of clothes that we leave at the foot of our bed despite our person's repeated, 'Please, put them in the way,' or the door we never get around to fixing, the trash we never take out, the leaves we never rake. Such little things, but on a long enough timeline, they will push marriages, read my marriage, to the brink." Choreplay contains real tips, advice, and wisdom, and of course, lots of jokes. Joining us now in studio is Jordan Carlos. It is nice to see you again.

Jordan Carlos: Oh, great to be here. Thank you so much for having me on this Freaky Friday. Appreciate it.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we want to hear from you. How have you or your partner worked out splitting up the household chores and parenting duties? Did it ever cause a problem in your relationship, and how did you solve it? Women, this one's for you. Have you ever felt like your partner didn't understand all the work you do around the house? This is a safe space, you are free to call in. Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. It's a judgment free zone. Give us a call. First of all, tell us where the title came from.

Jordan Carlos: The title just came from something my mom would say that my dad was doing. My dad, like Ben Franklin said, get caught working, right? So, my dad would do that. If it was like my mom was coming home from work, he was like, "Okay, if I sweep up the kitchen floor a little bit, if she catches me doing it, I'm going to get points." Washing the dishes, he'd be like, "Oh my gosh. Oh my God, look at me. Look at me washing these windows." My mom would be like, "It's obviously choreplay." That's where the term comes from. Always steal from the best. From Mama. Thank you, Mom.

Alison Stewart: Did you keep in the back of your head?

Jordan Carlos: Oh, I kept-

Alison Stewart: Always.

Jordan Carlos: -in the forefront, in the back. I have to, fully. Yes.

Alison Stewart: Well, how does your wife, first of all, before we get into the meat of the book, how does your wife feel about you writing this book?

Jordan Carlos: She was good with it. She definitely got to hear it when we had the big launch party this Tuesday, and I finally-- I mean, I think I finally got her respect. It's now an okay thing. Once that happened, she was like, thumbs up.

Alison Stewart: You're really honest in the book about the fact that you and your wife were having really difficult marital issues. You were sort of headed towards the D word a little bit.

Jordan Carlos: Yes. Yes.

Alison Stewart: Looking back on it now, what do you think was the root of that hardship?

Jordan Carlos: The root of the hardship is-- this is-- I only have a few minutes here. The root of the hardship. I'm just kidding.

[laughter]

Jordan Carlos: No, the root of the hardship was that I was looking for someone to mother me. Right? That is the problem. I didn't ever really grow up when I should have grown up. As a result, I was looking for someone to clean up after me, someone to cook for me a little bit, all these things, take out the trash and remember the big things so I could just go be an artist. I think that that was-- that was problem number one. That was problem number one.

Alison Stewart: It's sort of interesting, that whole idea of like, "I'm an artiste. I am making money. I shouldn't have to do these things." There's a little bit of that in there.

Jordan Carlos: Oh, absolutely. I mean, is it-- I mean, that just felt so odious to me. It felt like I was being punished if I had to make up the bed, or clean up my side of the room, or something like that. That just got worse and worse, because kids came into the picture, pets came into the picture, and she was really carrying the mental load. Then COVID happened, right? So, if I was busy on set doing gigs, out in the world doing stand up comedy, then I had an excuse for not helping out around the house. Then when COVID happened and everything shut down, then I was just like another child, really.

I was kind of redundant, in a way, and I was not helping. I didn't know where anything was in the house. I was just useless. There's so many guys like me, and that's what this book is really for, is guys that are well-meaning, but tripping over the very low bar that has been set somehow, some way. [laughs] Yes.

Alison Stewart: When you think back to those times, and you think about something you said to your wife, can you share one of those? One of those moments?

Jordan Carlos: Oh, something I said. Well, I said like, with my clothes, the piles, I was like, "Well, you know, I mean, things all end up on the floor. Systems always fall apart. So what's the big deal?"

Alison Stewart: Oh.

Jordan Carlos: Ooh, isn't that good?

Alison Stewart: Ooh.

Jordan Carlos: Isn't that sweet? Or just like, I'd be like, it's my-- I was like, "It's my mess, and I understand it has an internal logic that maybe you don't get." Then I'd be like, "Well, you have a standard of cleanliness that no one can meet. How about that?" So, yes, that's what-- those are-- there are just--

Alison Stewart: 'Em is fighting words. [laughs]

Jordan Carlos: The gaslight trio right there. Oh, it works so well. I mean, listen, what's cute in your 20s is not cute in your 40s. After a while, like, a very educated, independent woman like my wife was like, "I need to talk to the manager." There was like a kind of inventory that needed to take place there.

Alison Stewart: You're making me think of how I should teach my son.

Jordan Carlos: Yes, yes, you should teach your son.

Alison Stewart: Right?

Jordan Carlos: Yes.

Alison Stewart: I was reading the book last night and I was like, "Oh, maybe I shouldn't do the laundry twice a week. Maybe he should do it one day a week now that he's 17."

Jordan Carlos: Absolutely.

Alison Stewart: That's a different way of raising a boy.

Jordan Carlos: Absolutely. We have to kind of like have a break with our mother and grow up a bit, paging Dr. Freud, and I feel like little things like that wherein he's self-contained and able to take his clothes downstairs, and self-reliant, it's really important, because if he doesn't, then he's just going to-- well, like what I did was I found somebody just to replace my mom, and [laughs] thank you therapist.

[laughter]

Jordan Carlos: So that we want to avoid that. We really want to avoid that. Alison Stewart, so wise. Yes, get your son to separate those colors and whites and just-- or just throw it all in, wash it cold.

Alison Stewart: It'll be fine.

Jordan Carlos: It'll be fine.

[laughter]

Jordan Carlos: Yes.

Alison Stewart: My guest is comedian Jordan Carlos. We're talking about his brand new book, Choreplay: The Marriage-Saving Magic of Getting Your Head Out of Your Ass. It's out now. Listeners, we want to hear from you. How have you and your partner worked at splitting out the household chores? Did it ever cause a problem in your relationship, and how did you solve it? 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. This is a judgment free zone, by the way. Jordan, you wrote this book, it's really geared towards men in heterosexual relationships.

Jordan Carlos: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Why did you want to target that particular audience?

Jordan Carlos: We've lost so many good men, Alison. So many good men. I just think that because you speak from your experience, there were a number of men in the mom and dad's group in our neighborhood that were splitting up. They weren't splitting up over anything dramatic, it was almost like a kind of a, what I would call a meh, M-E-H, situation. As such, I think the partnership had kind of broken down. Right? I remember there was this one dad, who will remain nameless, who needed the babysitter there even when he was there with the kids. So it's like, what's happening here? Come on, bud. You got to chip in.

That's what I've written it for, is like there's a lot of well-meaning guys who may be open minded in the streets, but not in the sheets, so to speak, and need to pick up the slack. They really, they're well-meaning, these guys that I'm describing are often waiting to be told to do something. They're happy to go take out the trash, they're happy to walk the dog, they're happy to wash the dishes, if being told to do so, rather than having the executive function to just do it themselves. It's like putting yourself on that footing of more of an active or proactive footing, I think can really help. To me, it doesn't have to be a balance. I don't think it has to be a radical rearrangement. I'm trying to reach those people too, to tell them that if they did something, that would be [laughs] a huge. Some, one little thing.

Alison Stewart: You note that the second decade of marriage tends to be harder on people.

Jordan Carlos: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Why do you think that is?

Jordan Carlos: Because I think the first decade, it's like a rocket going into space. You have that wonderful thrust, but those cool two boosters fall off, and you have to find a new operating system, because you often slip into the sandwich period, which is you're taking care of your parents, at some point, or kids come into the picture. Maybe they're-- you have a miscarriage, but things will happen where you'll be put to the test. For better or for worse. Because of that, I think the partnership needs to be looked at, reevaluated, and rearranged to kind of like meet those new conditions.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Michael, who's calling in from Westchester. Hey, Michael, thanks for taking the time to call All Of It.

Michael: Yes, thank you so much for having me on. I'm a big fan of the show. I just wanted to mention something that frankly, it came to me the other day. One of the things that I haven't been, in the past, particularly good at is anticipating the needs of the household. It's, yes, picking up the socks off the floor, and wiping the counter, but it's even more than that. It's knowing that my wife's two steps ahead of me. She's planning what the next meal will be. She's figuring out when my kid needs new sneakers. It's all that extra work that she puts into that, that I realized I have to up my game a bit.

Alison Stewart: Thank you for calling in.

Jordan Carlos: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Thank you for recognizing that. You call that the invisible labor.

Jordan Carlos: Yes, that's invisible labor. I'm so happy to mansplain invisible labor here on All Of It. This book is geared towards guys who might not have heard of that before.

Alison Stewart: It's true. Some people haven't heard of it before. You can't tell [crosstalk]-

Jordan Carlos: Yes, don't get mad at us. It's invisible. Okay? Yes, that is-- thank you, Michael, for being vulnerable like that and saying that. Yes, there's so many things that are put on, traditionally, onto a woman's shoulders. I saw it with my own mother, who was a professor and also ran the household. So, I feel like it's just about giving a crap about these things. You have to give a crap. You have to give a gee wiz. The internet is so great, it's never been a better time to be a slob, Alison. All this information's online. What your teacher's names are. Just-- or you can go down the hall, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, to your kid's closet, check the size of their shoes.

I mean, the UK one is always bigger or smaller. I don't know. US versus UK sizes, on the shoes, but catch up. Look around. Scout around. It could take like 10 minutes to know these things, and to find out the names of, like, their doctors. That happened to me with my kids' dentist.

Alison Stewart: What happened?

Jordan Carlos: Well, I called the dentist. I was like, "All right, this is the new me. This is my inflection point." So I call up the dentist and I'm like, "I just want to check on when my kids are supposed to get their teeth cleaned again." Then the receptionist, this is South Brooklyn, she was like, "The mother already knows." I was like, "Okay, well, I'm the father." Then she's like, "Clearly, you're divorced." I was like, "We're not. We're not. We're not divorced." She's like, "Only divorced fathers do that." She was also a sock puppet, but she was cool.

Anyway, that's what happened. You have to realize, it's not the shark sometimes, it's the water that you're in, and that you have to accommodate for that. You have to know that things are set up for a life of ease to be a man, a straight man, things are kind of-- they accommodate you. Again, more truth bombs being dropped by this man about the misogynist construct in society. I think it takes an awakening, and it takes a conversation between men on the topic. So, yes.

Alison Stewart: This is an interesting text. It says, "You are describing my son-in-law."

Jordan Carlos: I am?

Alison Stewart: "As a result, my daughter's home is ultra messy and dirty. She doesn't seem to care, but it sets a very bad example for my two granddaughters."

Jordan Carlos: Absolutely, because my kids know full well that I'm the messy one. They would call me messy all the time. Like, "Daddy's rumpled. Daddy's messy. Look at Daddy. What a slob?" So they felt that they didn't need to clean up after themselves. That someone would come along.

Alison Stewart: See?

Jordan Carlos: Mommy, like a Roomba, and clean it all up, but that's-- you can't be out here doing that, because you're setting that, you're modeling that for your kids and it's not good. That's what was modeled for me as well.

Alison Stewart: We are talking to Jordan Carlos about his new book, Choreplay. Listeners, we want to hear from you. How have you and your partners worked splitting household chores? Did it ever cause a problem in your relationship? How did you solve it? Our phone number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. After the break, we'll talk about weaponized incompetence.

[laughter]

[music]

Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC, I'm Alison Stewart. My guest in studio is Jordan Carlos. We're talking about his new book, Choreplay: The Marriage-Saving Magic of Getting Your Head Out of Your Ass. You made a remark that we're on the edge of Valentine's Day.

Jordan Carlos: Yes, it is the edge of Valentine's Day. I think this is the perfect gift, sorry to plug, for any guy out there who needs a couple of low hanging fruit hacks. You know, we all do. I just assembled them because I was like, "No one could do worse than I did and still recover." So, it's Valentine's Day, guys. There's nothing more romantic than cleaning the bathroom for your-- don't worry about the flowers. Okay? Just-- [laughs] or maybe, yes. Actually, you know what? Bathroom and then flowers. Right?

Alison Stewart: Okay.

Jordan Carlos: Flowers, yes, I think is a nice touch. It's a good touch.

Alison Stewart: It's a good one.

Jordan Carlos: Yes, yes, but definitely bust those corners. Get the bathroom. Get the soap scum off the shower head.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Kristen from Pleasantville. Hi, Kristen, thanks for taking the time to call All Of It.

Kristen: Oh, thank you so much for putting me on. I'm in like an opposite situation. My husband, Ashley, does everything for the house. He does the laundry, he cooks dinner, and does the dishes, and-

Jordan Carlos: Keep that man.

Kristen: -with three kids.

[laughter]

Kristen: Yes, 25 years, celebrating Valentine's Day tomorrow.

Jordan Carlos: Wow.

Kristen: So, he's a keeper, but I feel guilty, a lot, about it. I'm also an artist, and I think maybe my brain just-- I can't wrap my head around doing things around the house-

Jordan Carlos: Okay.

Kristen: -but he really keeps everything in line. Fridays, he does a vacuum and cleanup, surface cleanup.

Jordan Carlos: So well trained.

Kristen: Every Friday it's-- yes, he's got it down. He is like my housewife. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Is there anything that Kristen can do-

Jordan Carlos: [laughs]

Alison Stewart: -that would surprise her husband, who does all the work-

Jordan Carlos: I think there's plenty you can do, Kristen.

Alison Stewart: -around the house?

Jordan Carlos: I always say that the devil's in the levels. You just have to go around, it'll take you five minutes to get around your house. I mean, listen, maybe you have a huge house. I have no idea. An east wing and a west wing. Check the TP levels. Right? Check your toilet paper, paper towel levels, juice levels, milk levels, olive oil, and butter. You can just change those rolls, the TP rolls, and he will be-- he might faint. You know what I'm saying?

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Jordan Carlos: He might keel over and think that the toilet paper fairy came for a visit. You know? Do that, Kristen. I know it sounds so lame, but it's true.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Nabu in the Bronx. Hey, thanks for calling All Of It.

Nabu: How are you? Thanks for having me.

Alison Stewart: Sure.

Jordan Carlos: Thank you.

Nabu: A lot of the icks that you're talking about, my wife used to talk to me about, and I didn't really appreciate it until she passed away in '21. So, now, in going through the house, having to learn my kids' shoe sizes, when we're running low on milk, when the bathroom has to be cleaned, as opposed to wiping down would suffice, all of these little things now, I don't have anyone who would do it in my absence.

Jordan Carlos: Right.

Nabu: Now it's like it's really, really-- it boils down to consideration, for me. What bothers me may not bother her, but what bothered her didn't bother me. Again, it's only after she was gone that I realized, "Oh, okay. This is what she meant by it, and this is why." I think if we, as men, considered, how would you feel if someone ignored you saying the same thing 20 times?

Jordan Carlos: Yes.

Nabu: Maybe they'll make you move a little faster.

Jordan Carlos: Oh my gosh.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in. Let's talk to Deb from Park Ridge. Hey, Deb, thanks for calling All Of It.

Deb: Hey, you bet. I would like the previous woman caller's husband's phone number.

[laughter]

Jordan Carlos: Drop it in the chat, Alison.

Deb: Yes. Yes, please. I'll call him up. Anyway, I was calling to just mention two things. Firstly, my husband is a hoarder, but never mind about that. That's on a whole other level. The truth of the matter is the emotional labor. That's really something-- that phrase didn't come to my attention, and I'm ancient, but that phrase came to my attention relatively recently. A lot of what the women end up doing is the emotional labor. Who's crying? Who's being bullied in school? What are they afraid of? Did they get their period? Like, what-- all that kind of stuff that supports and develops kids, a lot of times the men step back from that, and I'm not quite sure why that is.

If they feel they're not emotionally capable, if they feel like that's just women's work, which it is not. The other thing I wanted to bring up was the way in which, when the man models, "Oh, that's Mommy's problem," it does, as you all were saying, reflect on the kids. We had a kid who just lived at my house because his parents didn't notice him. So he just never went home. He came home one night, "Can he sleep over?" "Sure." Then the next night he came back, and the next night. He practically lived here. He did live here.

One day, my son, eight years old, comes downstairs with this kid's laundry, pushes them in my direction and says, "Have these ready by 11:00."

Jordan Carlos: [laughs]

Deb: Now we laugh so hard. To this day, my children are pretty grown up. To this day, when somebody doesn't know his place in the world, that is what we say.

Alison Stewart: Oh, have this done by 11?

Jordan Carlos: Have this done by 11.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Jordan Carlos: Do you run a small BnB?

Alison Stewart: Possibly.

Jordan Carlos: That's amazing.

Alison Stewart: Something else I wanted to ask you about, before we go to more calls, is this idea of weaponized incompetence.

Jordan Carlos: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Explain this to people, because it's really important.

Jordan Carlos: Weaponized incompetence. I just go back to Mark Twain, wherein in Tom Sawyer, Tom Sawyer gets the kids to whitewash a fence for him by saying they're better at it than he is. So, with weaponized incompetence, for guys, usually, we use the stereotype of being useless around the house as a way of getting out of work. Right? If you've ever seen movies like Mr. Mom, right? This guy just doesn't understand how to use a popcorn maker, and it just gets out of control, even though he is an engineer by trade. Those kind of myths, we kind of like take in wholesale, and that way, it absolves us of doing any work. I'm sorry to say the quiet part out loud, but that is what it is, and I've been guilty of it.

Alison Stewart: This text says, "Yes, cleaning the bathroom without being asked and getting me flowers? It's going to be a sexy Valentine's night."

Jordan Carlos: [laughs] Is that my wife?

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Jordan Carlos: Oh my gosh. Alina, I got you. Don't worry.

Alison Stewart: This says, "Men don't see the socks on the floor or the dishes in the sink."

Jordan Carlos: Can I say something now?

Alison Stewart: Sure.

Jordan Carlos: Okay. So, in my research, this was really interesting, Alison, because this is a part of-- this is the brain. This is what the brain does. It's the brain. It's not the man. Again, it's the water, not the shark. Right? So, okay, if we close our eyes, we can see our nose, right? One eye, you can see your nose, right eye, you can see your nose, but if you open both eyes, you can't see your nose. Why? Because the brain just avoids it. It pretends like it's not there. So, if you are socialized to do that, what else are you avoiding and/or ignoring? I think with men, for me especially, it was things that were on the floor. Legos, not so much because they can pierce right through the skin.

Alison Stewart: Easily.

Jordan Carlos: Permeate, but other things, I would just, "Forget it. I don't care." There's books at the bottom of the stairs, clothes at the top of the stairs. My mate wants me to put them away, and I just-- that doesn't-- it doesn't scan for me. Right? Learning that I needed to look out for those things, small things, was fundamental to me, to my change.

Alison Stewart: This says, "My boyfriend stays at my place four nights a week, perpetually broke and forgetting to invoice. He now pays per night. If he has the money, he can stay. If not, I say, 'Okay, see you tomorrow.' No judgment."

Jordan Carlos: First of all, I mean, Bushwick is getting crazy, but, like--

[laughter]

Jordan Carlos: Bushwick is off the heezy.

Alison Stewart: Wow.

Jordan Carlos: That is new. I like that. Listen, you better hit her on Venmo. Okay? That's a good Valentine's Day.

Alison Stewart: This is a good question. "How can I convince my fiancé to read this book without being accused of nagging?"

Jordan Carlos: Without being accused of nagging, how can I get him to read this book? Just say-- first, get it on audiobook, because a lot of guys, what we like to do is listen to audiobooks and then tell you that we read a book. We didn't do that. A story was told to us like we were four years old. So, I would get the audiobook, available now, where books are sold, and then I would just gift it to him and leave it there. You can also say a friend of yours, their partner read it. Because we get jealous.

Alison Stewart: Your friend heard about it on All Of It on WNYC.

Jordan Carlos: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Yes, that's a way in.

Jordan Carlos: Charlamagne tha God. Charlamagne tha God did the foreword. So if he likes Char, then there you go. I mean, sometimes men need-- it has to be like man approved.

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Jordan Carlos: For me, I changed my ways a lot because I learned about what a quartermaster was in the army, because I lived down the road from this guy who was like a colonel, one summer, and he just told me all about being a quartermaster. I was like, "That's so cool."

Alison Stewart: It is cool.

Jordan Carlos: "You're the coolest. You're a colonel. I could do that. I could be a little colonel at my house." Like, that's what this brittle man needed to make it okay.

Alison Stewart: It's what you needed. Let's talk to Jacob. Hey, Jacob, thanks for calling All Of It.

Jacob: Hi, there. Both my wife and I work, but she makes pretty much twice what I make. So she's kind of the financial provider, but I do all the other things. I shop for food-- food shopping, preparing food, laundry, cleaning. All of that, like, may not be the traditional view of a provider, but I take great comfort in that, and I see myself as a provider and so does she. She's the financial side, but I still provide for our home, and it gives me a lot of comfort. We have a one year old at home, so there's a lot of work to do.

Alison Stewart: You do have a lot of work.

Jacob: And we need a lot of money.

Jordan Carlos: Yes.

Jacob: Yes.

Jordan Carlos: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Thanks for calling, Jacob. Let's go to Joanna in Brooklyn. Hi, Joanna, thanks for taking the time to call All Of It.

Joanna: Hi, thanks for taking my call. I'm really enjoying this conversation. This is probably adding to what a previous caller called in about, on the topic of women's emotional labor. I think something that probably falls under that umbrella is, I think there's a tendency for women to kind of take on the brunt of forming and sustaining social relationships, and I think particularly once kids come into the picture, that can continue when it comes to maintaining relationships, forming play dates, participating in classroom activities, or parent group chats.

I'm fortunate that my partner is a very equal partner in that respect, but we did at one point have a conversation about the parent group chat. I was like, "I think you think that this is, like, more superficial than it is. It's, like, very important and it's like, a lot of time and effort." He was receptive to that. Again, I really appreciate the conversation and introducing terminology that some people might not be familiar with, because it's very important.

Jordan Carlos: Of course.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling. I want to hear how you stepped up to the plate. How you shook off the old Jordan and introduced the new Jordan into your relationship.

Jordan Carlos: Well, it started very simply, really. It started with making coffee in the morning for my wife. So, I knew that I could do one little thing that would put a smile on her face, or just like, one thing that-- where I could take a task off her plate, and that was it. She has her morning coffee at 7:15, sits it to the edge of the couch, reads the headlines. That's what she needs to do to start her day. I was like, "Okay, if I can do that one small thing, then great." I'm also a comedian, and in comedy we have two strategies. Yes, and. And if this, then what else?

So, I looked around and that's when I was like, "Okay, she's always telling me to get milk, she's always telling me to get juice, whatever it is that we need. What if I just short circuit that and start looking for those things?" The bulbs are out. Like, start looking around. So just small things that weren't heavy lifts, because I cannot do radical change, but I can do incremental change until it's like, "Wow, what a tectonic shift. That was huge." That's what I did. Then I started-- and then someone handed me a book. My friend Phoebe Robinson handed me a book. We love Phoebe. It's called The 5 AM Club. It was about waking up early.

Before that, prior to that, I'd wake up at like, whenever mom told me to. So, then I was like, "Let me set my own standard." Then I started waking up at 5:00, and I had so much more time to come online and to tackle the day. Really, to tackle the day. That made for a major, major shift. I had to show myself that I could do these small things before I could even start waking up earlier. You know?

Alison Stewart: Let's take one more call. Jennifer, from Fairfield, Connecticut. Hi, Jennifer, you're our last call.

Jennifer: Oh, hi. Thanks for taking my call. Well, this has been a great show. I got to get my husband to give a listen. He's an artist, and I'm an artist's wife, which is a job in itself.

Jordan Carlos: Thank you for your service.

Jennifer: I work at other-- yes, I know. They do. Their brains are wired completely different. So, we were together for 13 years and I became pregnant, and I had done all the cooking in the household and everything up to that point. I finally just said, when I got pregnant, was like, "You know what? I'm not hungry. I don't care about food. Food makes me sick. I'm out. I'm not doing it anymore." So, he said, "Oh, okay, fine." Before that, he hadn't really shown any interest in making food, but he started doing the food shopping and doing the cooking, and he turned out to be an amazing cook.

Jordan Carlos: Yes.

Jennifer: So, that really worked out beautifully, because from that time on, we share that sort of duties, but it took me a while to just ask like, you know, to let him know, I'm not doing it.

[laughter]

Jordan Carlos: You go, girl. I'm not doing it. I'm out. I love it.

Alison Stewart: When did your wife realize that you had made a change?

Jordan Carlos: I think she realized that I'd made this significant change when my son, we were at the dinner table, and I think he'd spilled some juice, and then we needed a paper towel, paper towels were out. My wife was like, "We're all out of paper towels." Then my son said, "No, we have plenty. They're all downstairs. Daddy got the paper towels. Daddy always gets all the stuff." Right? That really-- that was like, it made me know that I had a role, right? If my son is saying, and he's like five years old, that's when-- I mean, it clicked. It clicked for her, clicked for everybody. Like, that's what this guy's going to do. He's going to overstuff this house with Costco products, and that's going to be his role.

It's actually worked out really great because of Instacart. This is not a plug for Instacart, but again, technology has helped the slob, and I found a little way to function in a Rube Goldberg machine kind of way in my home. You know?

Alison Stewart: The name of the book is Choreplay: The Marriage-Saving Magic of Getting Your Head Out of Your Ass, is by Jordan Carlos.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: I like the way I say it.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Jordan.

Jordan Carlos: [laughs] I love how you say, "Out your ass."

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Jordan, thanks for coming in-

Jordan Carlos: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: -and thanks for writing the book.

Jordan Carlos: Of course. My pleasure.