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Alison Stewart: This is All of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thanks for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you're here. Hey, anytime's a great time to make a donation to WNYC. If you haven't supported us yet this year, please consider doing so. It's giving Tuesday. Call 888-376-9692. That's 888-376-WNYC or giveonline@wnyc.org and thanks. On today's show, we'll speak with actor Jude Law, who stars in the new film The Order, as well as director Justin Kurzel. We'll also speak with two New York Times reporters who have been investigating the performing arts group Shen Yun.

NPR Arts and Culture reporter Andrew Limbong is here to celebrate Book Week with us. He joins us to discuss NPR's lists of top books of 2024. Plus, we want to know your favorite book of the year. That's the plan. Let's get this started.

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Alison Stewart: Jim Gaffigan has had a fall that was full of highs and lows. He got the call to play vice presidential candidate Tim Walz on SNL and, well, that was a short gig. He's a sports fan, but as you know, his team is the Jets. He has a new comedy special out on Hulu called The Skinny, in which he revisits themes of parenthood and Christianity. Plus, if the name didn't give it away, he discusses his recent weight loss. There's a catch.

Jim Gaffigan: I have lost weight. Since I've lost weight, I find I get two types of reactions. One group, these people, they won't even say anything to me. They'll just go up to my wife and ask, "Is Jim okay?" Which sounds like concern, but I just hear judgment because to them it's more likely that I'm sick than I would ever have any self-discipline.

Alison Stewart: You can catch Jim on CBS Sunday Morning in a special on Hulu, and he's now in studio. Hi, Jim.

Jim Gaffigan: Hi. How are you? Thanks for having me.

Alison Stewart: I'm doing well. I haven't talked to you since you were tapped to play Governor Tim Walz. When--? How did it become clear that you had a Tim Walz impression in you?

Jim Gaffigan: It was-- I think we all know that when Kamala picked Governor Walz, immediately the internet started-- There was discussion of Steve Martin, and then it just was widened up to every pudgy, doughy, Midwestern-looking guy in the universe and so I was placed in the discussion. I understood from having friends on SNL that you don't really campaign for anything there. There is some magic that occurs, but you can't really go out there and work for it. I sat back and let my manager and agents do their thing. At one, I got a call when I was actually out of the country working on a movie. They said, "We've been telling SNL that you've been submitting Tim Walz's impression in funny videos to us." I'm like, "Oh, that's an interesting approach."

Alison Stewart: Because you hadn't been?

Jim Gaffigan: I had not. Then they were like, "Yes, and we--" Now, they're asking for those videos. I'm like, "Okay, so I guess I'm going to go back to my hotel and do a bunch of Tim Walz impressions." I essentially just-- I had studied a little bit some of his speeches, but I just did an impression of my brother Mitch, so it worked. Because I'm from the Midwest.

Alison Stewart: Sure.

Jim Gaffigan: My brother Mitch, similar to Governor Walz, is a very sincere, enthusiastic, all around good guy.

Alison Stewart: Did you have to dial up any part of you? Were you absent from the impression?

Jim Gaffigan: Well, I am Midwestern, but I guess maybe an optimistic, idealized version of me. I'm much more of a misanthrope, I guess. I'm more low energy. I'm less enthusiastic.

Alison Stewart: How did it go from week to week? After the first week, you get out there, "Okay, I got my sea legs," and then you get to study him a little bit more.

Jim Gaffigan: Yes, well, there's-- It's a strange balance because there's part of me that's rooting for him to do something really weird so I can have something to do in a scene. Just watching him and-- SNL were hands off on the impression and some nuances. He has physical mannerisms that were unique that I would pick up. Some of it is just a Midwestern little bit bouncy guy that I would insert in my personality.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to a little bit of Jim Gaffigan as Tim Walz.

Jim Gaffigan: I gotta be honest here, folks. When Kamala Harris called me and asked me to be her Vice President, I said, "Yes." This is personal for me. I love this country. As a former teacher, I need the money. This suit is from Costco. It's a Kirkland brand. They make great dog food.

Audience Member: Thank you, Tim.

Alison Stewart: They say, "Thank you, Tim. Get off stage."

Jim Gaffigan: Yes.

Alison Stewart: You were clean-shaven for that?

Jim Gaffigan: Yes. Yes.

Alison Stewart: How did that feel? Naked?

Jim Gaffigan: Yes, that is-- I always-- Whenever I got an acting job, they always want me to shave my beard. It's a little bit annoying because there is-- I think every guy who has a beard is wearing a beard because they want to hide half their face. It is some-- There's a nakedness to it, but, also, my kids really don't enjoy it either. It’s fine. It's fine.

Alison Stewart: Did you experience any change in your fan base after being on SNL?

Jim Gaffigan: Well, I don't know if I would say a change. We live in a pretty divisive time, so anything that is seen as appearing on a side-- There's people that have a problem with you beyond being on SNL, there's a problem. There's people that get furious that if you appear on The View. I'm like, "Well, don't watch it." We live in a very peculiar time where everything seems to be loaded with an opinion. Even on both sides. There was even something of people that were maybe like, "Don't characterize him in an unflattering way. This is too important." As a comedian or an actor, you have to make strong choices.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Jim Gaffigan. You could audition for SNL, but you were resistant because you wanted to be an actor early in your career.

Jim Gaffigan: Yes.

Alison Stewart: How did you experience stand up as the--? Is it the in between of being a performer and a writer? Is it stand up or--? I'm curious about that.

Jim Gaffigan: Yes. Well, stand up is-- Most standup comedians are so spoiled because as a writer, there's the immediate feedback, and as a performer, there's the outlet. The immediacy of being able to come up with an idea and try it on stage is just-- I love acting, I love writing, but I'm so spoiled by having that access to the creative fulfillment. As a creative person, it's the process that's really rewarding, but getting that feedback helps a lot.

Alison Stewart: Did you see stand up being predominant in your career when you were a young person?

Jim Gaffigan: I always had a romantic notion that-- There are different points in my career where maybe acting was more of a thing, but I try not to-- You have such little control over the perception world, so it's-- I'm grateful that I get to seek some fulfillment in the creative field. I wouldn't change the path I've had, really.

Alison Stewart: I watched The Skinny twice.

Jim Gaffigan: Oh, wow. Thank you.

Alison Stewart: It was really good.

Jim Gaffigan: Thanks.

Alison Stewart: The beginning is so interesting because you talk about your weight loss. You're very open about it. You say, "I used to be fat, now I'm just arrogant."

Jim Gaffigan: Yes.

Alison Stewart: When did it become clear to you that this was going to be the way you were going to start your special? Your weight loss.

Jim Gaffigan: Stand up is all self-assignment. There's certain segments or chunks and it's autobiographical and, essentially, it's this ongoing conversation you have with people that come to shows over the years, and it has to evolve. How I knew that-- Well, first of all, it's very introductory. It's similar to when you go on stage as a new comedian. People, they interpret you from your appearance, so you have to address it on first impressions. Self-awareness is really an important thing to communicate, to build trust with an audience. The fact that I had this weight loss, it's like, if I didn't bring it up, people were like, "Is he not going to bring that up?" Visual things you have to address.

Alison Stewart: That's funny.

Jim Gaffigan: If you're wearing a certain outfit or you've done something different with your hair, it just makes sense to bring it up because otherwise it would be distracting.

Alison Stewart: You talk about being someone who likes food. It's been a big part of your brand for a long time. One special, you talked about eating Hot Pockets all the time. Have you found that your physical change has changed your comedy in any way?

Jim Gaffigan: I would say that my comedy is always-- Some of it is, I'm known as a guy who talks a lot about food, and I have talked a lot about food, but it's not the only topic that I've discussed. I would also say, what's so great about these appetite suppressants? Even though we're going to find out that they cause people to grow tails. What's so great about.

Alison Stewart: They scare me, I'm telling you.

Jim Gaffigan: What's so great about it? What people don't realize-- I'm not even being paid by anyone. It's not like you don't have interest in food. If for me, somebody who has like, obviously an eating disorder, it makes you eat like a normal human being. In other words, instead of sitting back with my wife and polishing off two boxes of Triscuits, I'll only have a half a box of Triscuits. It's a normal consumption because there is something about-- I'm like a dog. Dogs don't know how to turn off like stop eating. I'm like that.

Alison Stewart: I'm wondering when you're on tour. I've been touring as a reporter and you are like, "Oh, I'll eat this. I'll eat out of the machine. I'll eat this in my hotel room." Do you still have that-- I don't know what it is. It's like Pavlov's dog. I walk into a hotel room, I've got to eat.

Jim Gaffigan: Oh, yes. My wife, it drives her crazy. Whenever I get in an airport, I'm like, "We've got to get food." She's like, "The flight's 40 minutes." I'm like, "You never know, we might be trapped on the runway for three hours." Over the years of touring, I have gotten to a point where I'll try not to eat before-- Because I'm such a low energy person, I try not to eat before a show or I eat very light and then afterwards I'll eat. That's when the real the grazing starts. After a show.

Alison Stewart: There's so much around these weight loss drugs, which is their secret. It was a big secret.

Jim Gaffigan: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Did you ever have reservations about talking about it?

Jim Gaffigan: Not really. First of all, I'm the type person, if I try to have a secret, it usually-- I'm somebody.

Alison Stewart: It comes out?

Jim Gaffigan: It comes out. I'm also, maybe because I'm so goofy looking, every teacher, if I did something wrong, I would immediately be identified. I just don't think that there's anything wrong with it. I was surprised that it worked because I'm usually somebody where, even doing the eye scan at the airport, it doesn't work. Clear at the airport, it doesn't work for me, because I'm not human. I don't know. I don't think there's anything wrong with whatever-- It is helping. My glucose levels and all that. My knees don't hurt.

Alison Stewart: Oh, good.

Jim Gaffigan: It is all good. Again, eventually, I'm going to grow a tail. I don't know when it is.

Alison Stewart: Do you hear from fans after you've told them about this after the show?

Jim Gaffigan: Yes. There's a lot of people that are on this stuff. It is an individual choice. I think that there's this contemporary view of people being secretive. Maybe because it is such a struggle for some people that they want to appear like they've done it themselves. I'm fine. I've got five kids. I'm barely getting by anyway. Do you know what I mean?

Alison Stewart: Oh, I know. I've got one, and I can't-- Oh, five?

Jim Gaffigan: Yes. It's insane.

Alison Stewart: Five in New York, too.

Jim Gaffigan: Yes. Right? I feel like I live in a psych ward. It's really-- I'm just not that good at parenting. We're in this age of the anxious generation and all that. History's not going to be kind to our generation. My parenting is, essentially, I'm like a repo man for Verizon. I'm just taking phones from kids. That's most of my parenting.

Alison Stewart: You joke that being a parent is like being a psychic who's constantly correct but always ignored.

Jim Gaffigan: Yes. Yes. Because the advice you bestow is automatically ignored. It's almost-- I don't know if it's this way with your teen, but it's better for the information I'm trying to communicate to come from a different person than me.

Alison Stewart: Oh, yes, so much better.

Jim Gaffigan: If they have a friend, you're like, "Hey, maybe suggest that they don't do that, because if they hear it from me, it'll make them want to do it."

Alison Stewart: I post Instagram stories to him. I'm like, "See? This Coach said to do that."

Jim Gaffigan: Yes. Oh, absolutely. That's so funny. Yes.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Jim Gaffigan. His latest standup special, The Skinny, is available to stream now on Hulu now. That's a new initiative for Hulu, right?

Jim Gaffigan: Yes.

Alison Stewart: When you think about how comedy has changed and how streaming has changed comedy, what do you think it's done to it?

Jim Gaffigan: Oh, my gosh. It's amazing, really. I'm here for a Hulu special, but really what Netflix and Ted Sarandos has done for standup is overwhelming. I mean, YouTube was huge and satellite radio was really instrumental and Comedy Central was cable. Really transformed. When I was a little kid, you either watched it on The Tonight Show or you didn't see standup. This streaming has really made it immediate and accessible and provided an outlet for comedians to, in a way, publish a book. Even the fact that comedians come out with a special every couple years is something that didn't exist 10, 15 years ago.

It was just George Carlin or Jerry Seinfeld putting out specials. It was really unheard of for comedians. Now there's comedians doing arenas. Nate Bargatze will be a stadium act in our lifetime, probably. He's going to be Taylor Swift.

Alison Stewart: Well, on the opposite end of streaming, you've got a spot on CBS Sunday Morning.

Jim Gaffigan: Oh, I love it. I love CBS Sunday Morning.

Alison Stewart: How did that job come about and why is that a good job for you?

Jim Gaffigan: There's something about that show that if you get it, you get it. For a lot of people, that's their church. That's what they do on Sunday is they watch that. There's a tone to that show that I can bump up against the edge of it and not-- Because it is the morning, it is Sunday. You can't be too sarcastic, you can't be too irreverent, but you can be a little bit snarky maybe. I love it as a creative outlet. During the pandemic it was a lifeline for my creativity. In a lot of ways it is this ongoing relationship I have with short commentaries that, in some ways, is just me complaining for a minute and a half. It's obvious I'm--

Alison Stewart: On camera, I've got something to complain about.

Jim Gaffigan: It's very much the spirit of Andy Rooney. It's this incredible creative outlet and I'm so grateful to have that outlet and to connect with likeminded people that love that show.

Alison Stewart: I worked on the show for three years and I really did love it. It was a long form. You had a chance to explore your subject, the person you were talking to. It was really-- I don't know, it was also heartfelt.

Jim Gaffigan: Yes. There's a tone and an unabashed sincerity to it. Even when I talk or I complain about my kids, there is the premise that obviously I care about them, so therefore, I can complain about them. If that makes sense?

Alison Stewart: All right. We talked about your weight loss and your special. We talked about parenthood. You also bring up Christianity as part of your standup. You tell a joke about Abraham.

Jim Gaffigan: Yes.

Alison Stewart: My son is Isaac.

Jim Gaffigan: Ah, there you go.

Alison Stewart: It got my attention. You say, though, "I'm a Christian and the reason I say that is to make you feel uncomfortable."

Jim Gaffigan: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Why does that make people uncomfortable?

Jim Gaffigan: Well, I think, in some ways, it makes me uncomfortable. There is something-- Because my wife is much more of this facilitator of fostering and maintaining my faith, I have this-- I think with everyone, it's moving their relationship with a belief system, whether it be Christianity or another religion or even the practice of meditation. There's nothing consistent about it. I love talking about it in standup because it is universal, it's historical, and I believe it's really a commentary on humans. Sometimes people online will be like, "How dare you question God?"

I'm like, "I'm criticizing humans. I'm not criticizing the belief systems of it." I love that because it is this interesting topic that I-- The religion material sticks around more than the food material, ironically.

Alison Stewart: It does? Why? That's interesting.

Jim Gaffigan: I don't know. I think it's just something maybe because there's a curiosity there and it's also timeless. There's a combination of people are familiar with it, but also, I can present a point of view. Also, I'm learning, but also questioning. I don't know. I think it's why all those books are still curious to people after thousands of years.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Jim Gaffigan. His latest standup special is The Skinny. It's available to stream now on Hulu. Okay, I'm going to bring up the C word. Clean.

Jim Gaffigan: Okay, sure.

Alison Stewart: The Wall Street Journal anointed you that in 2013. It's over a decade long, but it comes up and it comes up, and it comes up. You've described it as, you don't want to be known as clean. You want to be known as a funny. Comics want to be known as funny.

Jim Gaffigan: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Do you consider clean a pejorative?

Jim Gaffigan: No, I wouldn't say that. If you consider music, there's different adjectives and different subsections, right? There's country, there's rock, there's R&B and all this. The natural tendency is to do that with comedy. Clean, filthy, irreverent. The reality is that all comedy has to have an element of surprise for it to be effective. When people go online and they look on a streaming service for a comedy special-- If you're at a certain point in your life, if you're going to watch something with your Grandma or a 10 year old, you want clean commed. Often people want something irreverent. If they see clean, they might be like, "Well, I don't want clean, I want funny." That's where I prefer funny over clean.

Alison Stewart: Where do you stand on authentic?

Jim Gaffigan: Authentic? Well, I think that's the price of entry for comedy. I curse in everyday life, but in the end, I am a guy from a small town where cursing on stage wouldn't appear weird, it's more authentic for a New Yorker to say the F word, right? I'm from a small town in Indiana. People would be like, "Are you okay?" if you're from Brooklyn, it's not that weird. Even though I think New Yorkers curse less now than they do in the '90s.

Alison Stewart: Please don't curse.

Jim Gaffigan: I'm not going to. Do you know what I'm saying?

Alison Stewart: Our engineers-- I'm ready, I'm ready for it.

Jim Gaffigan: In the '90s, it was-- That's an interesting WNYC article. The decrease of cursing in New York City. It's a topic.

Alison Stewart: When you're talking about authentic, it seems like there's been a divide. Because you have one group of comics like you, like Hannah Gatsby, who are authentic, and then you have other ones like Hasan Minhaj, who's had some trouble with the word recently. What do you think authentic is in comedy? Should you be able to expand on the truth or do you have to stay with the truth?

Jim Gaffigan: Well, I think it's so slippery. Because comedy is exaggeration. It is hyperbole. There are-- I'm not criticizing. Whatever someone does, someone does. There is some-- It has to be grounded in some basic facts. That's where it’s-- When you start comedy and you do stand up, the audience is very generous in letting how you come across, and how you come across is some of that authenticity. I didn't realize how white bread I was until I came to New York. When I was in the Midwest, I was like, "This is a mistake. I'm supposed to be in New York City."

Then I get to New York and they're like, "You're the most Midwestern looking guy I've ever seen in my life." There's the perception, and then there's the authenticity, but if you're misrepresenting yourself, eventually it's going to be exposed.

Alison Stewart: I got a note here that says, "Jude Law is here, and he says he knows Jim Gaffigan and that we should say hello."

Jim Gaffigan: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Hello from Jude Law.

Jim Gaffigan: I was Smee to his Captain Hook. We were in Vancouver during the pandemic and it was me and him and a bunch of kids.

Alison Stewart: Not your kids, though.

Jim Gaffigan: Not my kids.

Alison Stewart: You left your kids at home.

Jim Gaffigan: I know. I left my wife during the pandemic for four months with five children.

Alison Stewart: Get out.

Jim Gaffigan: Yes. She still hasn't forgiven me.

Alison Stewart: The name of the special is The Skinny. It's on Hulu. Jim, thanks for coming by.

Jim Gaffigan: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

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