Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Most people know Cat Greenleaf as the affable, funny, incisive, and irreverent creator and host of Talk Stoop. I would say she's one of the original interviewers who had substance and style. Now, people have come to know her as the host of the podcast Soberness, a project that was launched in the fall of 2024. The podcast is about what it's like to live a life of sobriety, something Cat has done for about a decade now. The podcast has struck a nerve.

Not many podcasts can boast five-star reviews, but her honesty, with subjects and their responses, are illuminating. Her guests have included Marky Ramone, Tim Daly, Molly Jong-Fast, Margaret Cho, and Hank Azaria. She talks about their choices, their lives, and it's fascinating for those seeking sobriety or even those who aren't. With the holidays upon us, there will be alcohol everywhere you turn. We thought we'd invite Cat for an interview to hear her thoughts on sobriety, both personally and professionally. Welcome to the studio, Cat.

Cat Greenleaf: Thank you so much for having me. It is great to see you.

Alison Stewart: It is good to see you as well. People know you are a great interviewer. You've been doing it for a long time.

Cat Greenleaf: I'd say the same about you.

Alison Stewart: Well, thank you very much. You had a little problem with alcohol.

Cat Greenleaf: Yes, it wasn't little.

Alison Stewart: Wasn't little. Well, first of all, what led you to drink?

Cat Greenleaf: It's a great question, and we would have to stay on the air for many more hours. Basically, I knew I was an alcoholic from the time I heard about alcohol as a child. I thought, "That sounds like a magic carpet to get you the heck out of your life," and that sounded great. Even as a little guy, I felt very deeply, and life felt very big and hard to navigate. Alcohol was the answer until it wasn't.

Alison Stewart: What did you do in your hours when you weren't under the influence of alcohol? What was that time like?

Cat Greenleaf: You mean my--

Alison Stewart: In real life.

Cat Greenleaf: In real life?

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Cat Greenleaf: Oh, gosh. Well, after school and friends and hanging out, I then got married and launched a huge career and have two awesome kids. I've had a pretty big life. I had a pretty big life, but alcohol was the dark spot in it that would continue to drag me down. No matter how many accomplishments, no matter how many country houses, no matter how many kids and dogs, alcohol made everything bad, and yet didn't want to give it up.

Alison Stewart: Was there a definitive episode that led to your sobriety?

Cat Greenleaf: Well, there was the last day. I knew. You know, you know, right? You feel it in your bones when change is on the way. Change was on the way. It was September. I was spent the day with my youngest son, Truman, who's actually in the waiting room right now. I just thought, "I want to be present for this guy. I don't want him to see me drunk." I don't want anyone to see me drunk, but I don't want him to see me drunk. My older kid was probably about five at the time, and I just wanted them to have a present momma.

Alison Stewart: What was a hard road for you to go down in your sobriety? Was it the first week? Was it the holidays? Was it dealing with people you didn't want to deal with?

Cat Greenleaf: Yes, yes, family. Seeing my family was challenging at different stages. Now, I have a great relationship with my family, but at times, I felt like alcohol was a good lubricant there. The holidays, yes. The first few holidays were impossible. I didn't like it at all. Now, I have lots of tips and tricks to help me through not only the holidays, but any rough time.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we want to hear from you. Why did you decide to become sober? Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-NYC. What has changed for you the most? What advice would have for someone trying to get through the holiday season who wants to stay sober? Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in and join Cat and I on the air, or you can text to us at that number as well. My guest is Cat Greenleaf. She's the host of the Soberness podcast. What was the biggest question you had for yourself once you mastered sobriety?

Cat Greenleaf: Well, I was concerned that I wouldn't be funny anymore. That was my big fear. I was afraid I wouldn't be funny. I was afraid I wouldn't have friends. I was afraid I would no longer be the life of the party. I can't attest to my own level of funniness, but I will say that I'm probably much more enjoyable at a party now than I was as a drinker. That said, I go to a lot fewer parties.

Alison Stewart: Interesting. It's a choice?

Cat Greenleaf: Yes, I don't enjoy socializing as much anymore. I'm very shy socially, and I stand behind any ficus or other thing that I can shield myself with. Really, that's what alcohol is, by the way. It's like a ficus. You can always stand behind it because it keeps you a little bit removed from the world. That's really what I loved about it. Now, I feel like, "Well, if I'm going to go to a party just to hide, why am I going to that party?" I stay home a lot more.

Alison Stewart: How did your work style change once you became sober?

Cat Greenleaf: [sighs] My mind opened up because the amount of time it takes to be an alcoholic is crazy. You spend a lot of the day thinking about when you're going to get your next drink, then you have to go get that next drink, then you drink it, and all the drinks after that. Then you get home, and you get in a fight with your husband, and then you have to, in the morning, blame it on him or make up or something. It's just time-consuming. As a TV host, as a mom, I just had more time because I wasn't busy making problems, and then being mad at myself for making problems.

Alison Stewart: Oh, that was interesting, so you're making your own problems, solving them, making them, solving them, making them, solving them.

Cat Greenleaf: Yes, ma'am.

Alison Stewart: Oh.

Cat Greenleaf: Awful, right?

Alison Stewart: It's awful, but you know what? It did something for you.

Cat Greenleaf: Yes, it did.

Alison Stewart: It fed something for you.

Cat Greenleaf: Absolutely. Listen, half the world is on some sort of drugs to help their mood, drugs that your doctor prescribes to help you deal with the things you need to deal with. For me, I self-medicated, and it was alcohol. It also gave me a friend. I've lived around the world. I always had alcohol there at the end of a hard day. I had alcohol there at the end of a great day. Alcohol was my friend. No one wants to dump a friend, right? Then when that friend is mean to you, you know.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. This is Nikki, who's calling in from Philadelphia. Hi, Nikki, thank you for making the time to call All Of It.

Nikki: Hi. How's it going?

Alison Stewart: It's going well.

Nikki: Yes, I wanted to share my story. I was an alcoholic for a very long time. It got especially worse over COVID. I found myself in the emergency room with severe withdrawal once I decided to cut back a little bit. I also had end-stage liver failure, and I was 33. I got a liver transplant and, yes, had to learn how to walk again because all my muscles atrophied while I was on life support. After everything got through, got back on my feet. Now, I own a non-alcoholic bar.

Cat Greenleaf: Hey, congrats. What's the name of your bar?

Nikki: Bar Palmina.

Cat Greenleaf: All right, I want to check that out.

Alison Stewart: Nikki, thank you so much for calling in. Let's talk about the podcast. How did it come about?

Cat Greenleaf: Well, Talk Stoop had been over for about six years. After I lost my job, I thought, "I'll never go back to broadcast." My heart was broken, and then I was missing it so deeply, and I just wasn't sure how to get started.

Alison Stewart: Running around interviewing the kids in the kitchen. [laughs]

Cat Greenleaf: Yes, yes, and I was feeling jealous when I would hear old guests of mine on the air with other hosts, and I thought, "I want to be back with them." Then I heard Steve Earle, who was a Talk Stoop frequent flyer, and I heard him talking about his sobriety. I was like, "Wait a minute. You can talk about your sobriety out loud?" I thought it was like every alcoholic had the burden that AA puts on you of, "You can't say anything." Well, when he was talking about it, then I went to hear Hank Azaria play a concert, and then he was talking about his sobriety. I thought, "Listen, if these guys are out there talking about it, why not talk to me?" The show was born the next day after I saw Hank.

Alison Stewart: What did you think when you pitched it to people? "Hey, I'd like to start a podcast about sobriety."

Cat Greenleaf: Well, I realize that sounds like a huge snooze, right? Like, "Oh, sobriety. So boring," but people who want to tell their sober story, like our last caller there, want to tell it. They have their rap down, and they want to spread the news. Listen, getting sober has been such an important part of my life and the wellness of my family that I am about sharing these stories. It's the stories that keep me sober. At first, I thought we were going to have a hard time booking guests, and we did not have a hard time. Tim Daly was our first. Then from then, celebrities wanted to sign up and tell their stories, and that feels great.

Alison Stewart: Well, let's listen to Tim Daly. People might know him from Wings and Madam Secretary, and he's been sober since the early '80s. He told you a few very harrowing details. Let's listen.

Tim Daly: I was a blackout drinker.

Cat Greenleaf: Me, too.

Tim Daly: This is all very standard stuff for people that have a problem. I kept trying to prove to myself that I had control. I'm going to stop for a week, and then I would start, and I would have a blackout, but I was driving around in blackouts. I was doing a lot of stuff that I couldn't remember. I was losing time, losing my life. I had this moment where I came out of a blackout.

I was under a sink having drunk a bottle of cooking sherry, because everything else was gone. This is a weird thing to say, but my mom was a terrible drunk for a long, long time, and she got sober, and so I knew that it was possible. I knew that it was out there. Her sister had gotten sober also. I come from a long line of drunks, stretching back to the Stone Age on both sides of my family.

Cat Greenleaf: You come by it quite honestly.

Tim Daly: Oh, God. I am absolutely positive there's a genetic component to it in my case.

Alison Stewart: That is from the podcast Soberness. Cat, two things about that. What do you remember about that interview?

Cat Greenleaf: It was my first one back on the air after six, seven years, so I remember being very grateful to Tim Daly.

Alison Stewart: What did you learn from that interview that you would take down the road as your first interview like, "Okay, this is what I need to talk about. This is what I don't need to talk about"?

Cat Greenleaf: Yes, that's a great question. That interview was all over the place and took a lot because of my interviewing style like, "Let me think about that," and, "Oh, now, you just need to think about that," instead of sticking to a flow that would work on a podcast. Podcast is much different than a TV show. I think like and am a TV person. It's how I was raised. I spent almost 30 years on the air, right? For me, I had to learn how to organize my questions ahead of time in a way that would make for the least amount of editing afterward. That's a big feat for someone who's used to editing a lot.

Alison Stewart: Talk to Lisa, who's called in. Hi, Lisa. Thanks for calling All Of It. You're on the air.

Lisa: Oh, hi. Thank you so much for taking my call. I love it when people talk about sobriety because it's something that is still stigmatized. I think that it's one of the most courageous things any of us could do is take that step towards claiming back our lives and ourselves. I'm sober seven years in February. No matter how hard life gets, alcohol is just not a choice for me. Everyone has a very low or high end, but I was a pretty high-functioning alcoholic.

What was the most important thing for me was my husband couldn't confront me for whatever reason. I had to find a text that I sent him. I've never blacked out, basically telling him I wanted a divorce. That led to my going into AA two days later. I am so grateful for that moment, even though it was heart-wrenching and COVID and this and that, but I was in such a deep hole. I think the thing with alcoholism is that what people don't understand is it doesn't have to have physical manifestations, that I was so deeply depressed that I didn't think anyone would care if I died, except for my son.

Alison Stewart: Oh, Lisa, thank you so much for calling in. I appreciate that. She said something interesting. She said there's still stigma around talking about sobriety. Why is there still stigma?

Cat Greenleaf: [sighs] Well, it's a weakness, people think, right? They think you can't handle it. You're not as strong as other people. You've clearly made some very bad decisions. People also think that it is a decision. Having alcoholism is not a choice. Nobody wants it. The crazy part about this disease is only you can make the choice to not be active in your disease, right? You don't ask to have it, but you have to decide and act on not having it.

Alison Stewart: Our guest is the host of the Soberness podcast, Cat Greenleaf. We'll have more after a quick break. This is All Of It.

[music]

Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest in studio is Cat Greenleaf. She's the host of the podcast Soberness. We'd also like to hear why you've decided to become sober. Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Cat, when you're doing your podcast, how far do you know to go with someone?

Cat Greenleaf: Oh, another great question. Listen, I always try to go as far as possible, but you can feel it when somebody puts up that guardrail. I'm not out to bust anybody. If this is how you want to describe your sobriety or if you want to sugarcoat your experience because you're not quite ready to bring it out there, I'm okay with it. Talking about your sobriety at all is very brave. That said, of course, I want all the deep, dirty stories, but I relate to my guests because I also don't like to tell my dirty stories either.

Alison Stewart: Can you tell when someone's not telling you the truth?

Cat Greenleaf: Yes. Can't you?

Alison Stewart: Usually.

Cat Greenleaf: Yes.

Alison Stewart: If you keep asking questions, then you're like, "Yes."

Cat Greenleaf: Right, and you're really hitting on something. One regret I have with the show is that I don't push it a little bit more. I just have such great respect for my guests that I don't want to make them uncomfortable. That said, I get bummed out as a journalist when I know there's a deeper story under there.

Alison Stewart: Let's take some more calls. Let's talk to JJ in Mamaroneck. Hey, JJ, thanks for calling All Of It.

JJ: Hi, thanks for taking my call.

Alison Stewart: You're on the air.

JJ: Yes, I've been sober for about five years. Completely sober, not California sober. I just wanted to talk about the-- My story isn't dramatic. A lot of the stories that we hear require a bottom-of-the-barrel scenario, but I wanted to speak up as a person who wasn't at the bottom of the barrel, who just wasn't happy doing that anymore, and rooted it out of my life. I think that there doesn't have to be a moment of absolute, personal devastation to motivate sobriety. It can come out of a healthy choice.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in. Did you want to weigh in?

Cat Greenleaf: Yes, absolutely. You're so right. By the way, I'm also from Mamaroneck. Big ups.

[laughter]

Cat Greenleaf: One of our taglines on Soberness is "whatever works." What I mean by that is whatever works to get you sober, you don't have to be down in the bottom. You don't have to have a big public flame-out. You can just say, "It is not working for me, so sobriety, soberness, is what works," and that's okay, too.

Alison Stewart: You interviewed Jonathan Goldstein, the host of Heavyweights. He recently stopped drinking.

Cat Greenleaf: He did. I'm a huge fan of his show Heavyweight. If you listeners here aren't listening to that, please do. It's such a great podcast. It was off the air for a minute, and I had read in the Times that he was coming back. In that article, he mentioned he had recently gotten sober. As a fan, I was desperate to talk to him, but I also feel like it's really important to support people in early sobriety because that can be the most tenuous time. When I reached out to him, and he said yes. I was so grateful. It was a special interview for me because it was the first time he spoke about sobriety in public. That's scary to do, especially if you're not a Charlie Sheen, where everyone knows that you were crazy on drugs. You're just a guy, and people didn't know. I have a lot of respect for him for that.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to a clip of Jonathan Goldstein describing how he used alcohol. This is from Soberness.

Jonathan Goldstein: Alcohol, when I'd get together with family, was putting on a bulletproof vest. It was like a cloak. I felt protected because there's a way in which family can get at you and really hurt you. You're vulnerable with them in a way that you can't be with anybody else. Drinking helped things to just roll off me. Since I've stopped, and then maybe this is the thing which you're talking about, which encourages introspection and having to go deep and to find those tools within yourself, that's what you got to do. I have found that, yes, more even, I've become a better listener with them. I'm not as sensitive, weirdly.

Alison Stewart: He talked about how he dealt with his family.

Cat Greenleaf: Yes.

Alison Stewart: That's a big issue coming up, especially now during the holidays. People in the next six weeks are going to be surrounded by alcohol. What have you learned from your guests as we're heading into these next six weeks?

Cat Greenleaf: There are a few ways to handle it. The first is get your sober scaffolding around you, friends you can call, people who know that you're not drinking, and make sure that you can connect with them. Keep your family visits short if you find that they're a trigger for you. Also, a big question we get this time of year is, how do you handle it when people say, "Oh, why aren't you drinking?" The best answer I've heard from any of my guests is, "Turn it into a positive. Yes, I am not drinking. It's the best decision I ever made," instead of, "Ugh, yes, I got a DUI. My company is making me do it." No, own this. "Yes, it's the best decision I ever made." You can talk about it on the upswing as opposed to focusing on the downswing.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Marianne, who's calling in from Connecticut. Hi, Marianne. Thank you so much for calling All Of It. You're on the air.

Marianne: Hi, love your show, and thanks so much for taking my call. I'm so happy to hear this on the radio. I've been sober for just past 27 years. I was also not one of these classic, low-bottom people. I was in my early 30s. I looked really great. I had a great job. I lived in a great place. I loved really good wine, and I loved a good-looking drink. My favorite was a gimlet. Who doesn't like raising one of those? I grew up in a family of alcoholism and mental illness. I drank with the best of them.

It was a point of pride that I could stay later than anybody else, so I could look really good. I knew what to order. I just had this nagging feeling for a really long time. I knew I was an alcoholic. When I got sober, it also wasn't like this devastating moment. It was like I woke up after another night in a taxi cab on my way to my office, and I thought, "Oh, my God, I can't do this anymore." It was only after I got sober that I realized I couldn't even look at myself in the mirror. I hadn't done that for years.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in. This brings me to another clip I want to play because, really, it means a lot. It's your discussion with Darryl McDaniels, founding member of Run-DMC. Cat, you got a lot from this conversation about forgiveness and shame. What message did you get from him?

Cat Greenleaf: Oh, Darryl, more than anybody, helped me to relieve some of the shame-- Listen, being an alcoholic means you are carrying around guilt and shame. Nobody is free of that. For me, who'd been a drinker for such a long time, my guilt and shame ran pretty deep, and still does. He spoke about it in a way that allowed me to almost make friends with my past and not be so mad at it and not blame myself for it. He looks at alcoholism like any other disease. You have a broken arm, you have a cold, you have alcoholism.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a listen.

Darryl McDaniels: Little things cause you to be emotionally sparked.

Cat Greenleaf: Who are you telling? I get it. Listen, I know we're all supposed to say, "Hi, I'm Cat. I'm a grateful, recovering alcoholic." Gratitude is not the first thing on my list when I think about my alcoholism. I think about what a [bleep] show it caused for so many decades in my life.

Darryl McDaniels: Exactly, but it's nothing to be ashamed about because you beat and defeat it. You're a superhero. You prove you could beat and defeat whatever you're struggling against.

Cat Greenleaf: I have so much shame around my drinking so much. I blew up so much stuff. I hurt so many people. I nearly hurt so many people by driving under the influence.

Darryl McDaniels: Oh, I did that. Oh, that's the one thing I hate when I think of all the nights. I'm not afraid to admit it, though. I drove drunk so many times, and I'm thankful I ain't killed nobody.

Cat Greenleaf: For real.

Darryl McDaniels: Somebody needs to hear that rather than not hear that. Unless you admit how you feel, whether good or bad, you never heal. Part of your healing is admitting that shame [bleep] because what I mean by that is this. We celebrate people that says, "I feel like a million dollars a day. I can take all the world." "I'm depressed. Get away from me. I drove drunk. Get away." There's nothing wrong. That's when you receive your power.

Alison Stewart: Why did that conversation really stick with you?

Cat Greenleaf: Oh, gosh. First of all, just being with Darryl, his presence, his energy is intoxicating. I'm also a lifelong Run-DMC fan.

Alison Stewart: Of course.

Cat Greenleaf: There was that. Maybe that's it. Maybe it's just hearing my idol say, "Hey, you are okay," and then turning it into a superpower. I don't spend a lot of time thinking, "Yes, I vanquished that. I defeated that. I am 12 years without alcohol." I don't think about that. I think about all the bad things I did leading up to those 12 years. He reframed it for me in a way that has really helped every day since then.

Alison Stewart: What advice would you give to someone who's listening right now who's drinking, but they can't stop?

Cat Greenleaf: I know it is the worst feeling on earth to think, "I am not able to give this up. I will be a slave to this forever," because I was there. I was there thinking, "I don't want to drink today," and then, within the hour, definitely drinking. If this alcoholic, whose voice you're hearing right now, can put it down, so can you. As hopeless as you may feel today, please take my word for it. There is so much hope for you. There's so much support out there. You do not need to do this alone. Truly, it is not your fault. You can get out of this.

Alison Stewart: Monk, you've got about 40 seconds. Tell us your story.

Monk: Yes, I just want to thank you again for having this subject on the radio. I just want to speak out towards service industry people like this because, as a shy person myself, I'm very good as a bartender. I create regulars as far as the day is long, but I need alcohol to do that. I feel like I'm not the only person who works in service industry who doesn't want to get caught up in this and ends up getting caught up in this, and just using it as a way to tolerate service and putting on a smile for people who don't give a shit about you, and I think that's something--

Alison Stewart: Thank you. You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. My guest has been Cat Greenleaf. She's the host of the Soberness podcast. Any words of wisdom to leave our listeners with?

Cat Greenleaf: Yes, if you're going to a holiday gathering, bring your own non-alcoholic beverage. That way, you'll make sure you have something to hold in your hand, and you'll feel like one of the big kids.

Alison Stewart: Cat, thank you for coming in, and thanks for being so candid. We really appreciate it.

Cat Greenleaf: Thanks for having me.

Alison Stewart: Thanks to all of our callers who called in with their stories. Coming up, a new documentary explores the unlikely origins of one of the most controversial days of the year. We'll hear about the history of SantaCon. That's coming up after the break.