Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. There is sisterly devotion, and then there's Sarah Griffin, the protagonist of the debut thriller by writer and poet Saratoga Schaeffer. In Serial Killer Support Group, Cyra's little sister, Mira, is brutally murdered potentially by a serial killer. Cyra, unhappy with the pace of the NYPD investigation, decides to take matters into her own hands. No, she doesn't scour the internet for leads or pour over the files or make a podcast. She decides to gain access into a group through the dark web where serial killers are rumored to meet. She just doesn't want justice, she also wants revenge.

Saratoga Schaeffer is the author of a book of poems and their last name may sound a little familiar. It's because, full disclosure, they're part of the WNYC family. Their dad, John, is the host of New Sounds. Saratoga is with us today. Welcome to the show.

Saratoga Schaefer: Thank you for having me. It's exciting to be here.

Alison Stewart: This book is sort of a dark take on true crime and amateur slough stories, plus a look at familial relationships. Where did you get the idea?

Saratoga Schaefer: A couple of years ago, I was reading something that talked about how there's no such thing as a support group for murderers, and that was a light-bulb moment for me. I started thinking about, "What if there was a support group specifically for serial killers?" The rest of the story poured out of me from there, but it was a very inspiring moment of, "Oh my gosh, this is really weird," and "What can I do with this?"

Alison Stewart: What appealed to you about a character seeking to avenge a crime instead of just a traditional search for justice?

Saratoga Schaefer: Well, I guess for me, I was thinking of it as I wanted this person to be infiltrating this group of serial killers, and it became a question of, "What is big enough to have that kind of motivation for somebody?" For me, my first thought was, "If something happened to a loved one, that would be a motivator for a character to go to these lengths." I think for a character to go to the lengths that Cyra goes to, there would also have to be something more driving them than just, "I want the truth." It's, "I want revenge." Someone who joins a serial killer support group, even if they're doing it like a spy, is usually maybe not someone who's just fine sitting by and letting the cops do their thing.

Alison Stewart: What appealed to you about writing about serial killers?

Saratoga Schaefer: I think I've always been peripherally interested in serial killers. The psychology behind them is very fascinating. I grew up watching things like Law & Order, SVU and Criminal Minds, and that was very early exposure to serial killers, albeit a kind of media centric version. I knew I always wanted that space and wanted to explore what that might look like. It was something I had always been aware of. Then with this book, I did a lot more research, especially research into female serial killers because Cyra pretends to be one in order to infiltrate the group. All of that together led to a really deeper understanding and exploration of these people who are like the worst of the worst that we can think of in society.

Alison Stewart: All right. Where did you do your research and what kind of research did you do?

Saratoga Schaefer: [laughs] A lot of it was just going through the internet. I did a couple of different versions of research. One of them was more maybe informal, if you could say, like going to Reddit and other forums and seeing the true crime aspect and that's sort of obsession that our society has with serial killers and true crime and things like that. Then there was going to bookstores and reading articles and just doing a deep dive on the types of serial killers and historical serial killers. I did a little bit of everything.

I didn't want to totally immerse myself because I didn't want that to color the characters I wrote. I wanted them to be their own people, so I wasn't trying to base them off of real life serial killers. There was sort of like a boundary in place there, but there was just a lot of different types of research going into this in order to make it feel as realistic as possible in a scenario where there is a serial killer support group.

Alison Stewart: I'm joined by Author Saratoga Schaeffer. We're speaking about their debut thriller, Serial Killer Support Group. Our protagonist, Cyra, where is she? What's going on with her when we meet her in the novel?

Saratoga Schaefer: We meet her pretty soon after she finds out about the murder of her younger sister, Mira. She's not in a great headspace, she's not having a good time, and she's extremely motivated by the truth and more broadly, revenge. She wants to find out what happened, why it happened, and get her own version of justice from everything that has gone down. She is very mission-oriented and she is also very emotionally closed off because she needs to focus on finding the truth. She's not very warm and fuzzy, but I think that is an advantage for her since she is diving into a very dangerous world.

Alison Stewart: Her name is spelled C-Y-R-A. On the first page, she gives you what for about how to pronounce it correctly. How did you decide on the name?

Saratoga Schaefer: I decided on the name randomly. My characters tend to come to me as fully-formed people and then it's my job to try to rein them in. Sometimes I'll just browse like baby name sites and see if something sticks out to me, and Cyra stuck out. In the process of choosing her name, I realized that there were two different pronunciations, so I decided immediately, right off the bat, Cyra was going to tell the reader how to pronounce her name because I knew there would be questions about that.

Alison Stewart: We learned that Cyra was always very protective of her sister, Mira. She always had been since high school. How much of that protectiveness is about Mira and how much of it is about Cyra?

Saratoga Schaefer: That's a great question. I think it's a little of both. Cyra has maybe not the best home life. Neither of her parents are super present. Her mother, in fact, left her and Mira when they were young. Part of that protectiveness is just a nature versus nurture thing where she has to be that way, and part of it is maybe a little bit of control. Cyra likes to be the one in charge. She likes to know what's going on at all times. If she's the protector, that is something that she's always going to be aware of. It's probably a little bit of a couple different things. Some of her family history, but also just inherently who she happens to be as a person.

Alison Stewart: She gets information from a friend connecting her to the police files in this case and he tells her about-- chatter that cop suspect serial killers are meeting secretly. This all start as a way for her to have an insider's way to get to the dark web to find out where this world of serial killers-- this is all happening in the first 40 pages of the book, and where they might meet and how she might meet them. First of all, why is that her first thought? "Let me go meet this group of serial killers."

Saratoga Schaefer: [chuckles] Well, I think initially, Cyra isn't sure that it's an in-person meeting and she thinks it's going to be a virtual thing or something that is only existing on the dark web because she finds it very strange and unrealistic that they would meet in person. When she realizes that that might be the case, she is so driven and she's in too far now to back out. Besides that, she doesn't have much else to lose. A lot of her life was revolving around Mira. Without Mira, there's just this gaping hole in Cyra's life, and instead of being healthy and filling it with therapy and things like that, Cyra's like, "No, I'm going to just go head first into this and figure out what happened and how I can get some kind of justice for it."

Alison Stewart: What did you learn about the dark Web in your research?

Saratoga Schaefer: [chuckles] I learned that I definitely couldn't use the dark Web because it's very confusing to me. I am not a computer person. I'm not a math and science person. I did my research, but I was also like, "I don't need to actually try this out. I'm good on this. That can just be a part of the internet that I know exists, and that's as far as I go with it."

Alison Stewart: All right. I'm going to ask you to read a little bit from the book. Cyra has to gain entry into this group and she's got to pass a little bit of a test. I'll have to read on page 25. This is Saratoga Schaeffer reading from their book, Serial Killer Support Group.

Saratoga Schaefer: Cyra took the end to Astoria Boulevard and walked the extra mile to a tiny abandoned parking lot not far from LaGuardia Airport. A chewed up chain link fence surrounded the lot, but there were gaps where the links had split apart, and Cyra was able to slip through, stepping on overgrown weeds, pushing their way through the cracked pavement. This block was dark, the street lights dim or out altogether. It was quiet, empty, an industrial area that turned into a dead zone at night. The lot itself was swathed in shadows, backlit by the pinpricks of light from apartment buildings blocks away.

As Cyra slowly moved deeper into the lot, looking for the looming shape of the dumpster at the north end, her hands were shaky. She couldn't stop the sweat from pooling under her arms despite the chill in the air. But her nerves originated from anticipation rather than dread. Was she finally getting somewhere? She could barely see with the sunglasses still covering her eyes, but she didn't dare remove them. Nor did she chance using a flashlight. She didn't want anyone driving by catching a glimpse of her. She was squinting by the time she got to the dumpster. Heart racing, fists tight. Taking a deep breath, she peered around the edge.

At first, she couldn't see anything, which was good. She had been steeling herself for a body. She didn't want to imagine what she would end up doing in that situation, what choice she might make, and how quickly she would make it. Crouching lower, Cyra finally spotted it nestled deeper in the shadows, a duffel bag. She didn't dare touch it with her bare hands. Glancing once over her shoulder to make sure she was still alone in the lot, Cyra pulled on a pair of black rubber gloves from her backpack and gingerly drew the duffel bag towards her by the strap. Out from the shadow of the dumpster, there was just enough light to allow Cyra to unzip the bag, glancing inside.

Alison Stewart: Dun dun dun. You have to find out what she finds out inside. You play a lot with New York in this book. What was your favorite moment to describe?

Saratoga Schaefer: My favorite moment to describe was probably some of the scenes in Park Slope. That's where I grew up, so it's very close to my heart. The scenes in Queens were fun too. I have family in Queens and I lived in Queens for a year. In general, every location in this book and especially the overarching vibe of New York is like my love letter and a little bit my hate letter too. I have a very complicated relationship with New York City, so I think some of that comes through throughout the text.

Alison Stewart: All right. Give us a couple of complaints you have about New York City that show up in the book.

Saratoga Schaefer: [laughs] I think I'm like Cyra in that it can feel really overwhelming and overstimulating at all times, and Cyra just wants to stay at home and watch Real Housewives and hang out. I, especially after moving out of the city, completely relate to that instinct now, where it's like there's a lot of noise and there's a lot of people and there's a lot of smells and sometimes you just want to sit at home and watch crappy reality TV.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Author Saratoga Schaeffer. We're speaking about their debut thriller, Serial Killer Support Group. All right. She makes it into the group fairly early. What appealed to you about a support group for serial killers?

Saratoga Schaefer: I think the absurdity of it a little bit appealed to me because it's just such a weird concept. I also loved the idea of it being a support group not for these people to get help or to stop killing, but as it being a safe space where they can just chit-chat and share tips.

Alison Stewart: Chit-chat? [laughs]

Saratoga Schaefer: Yes. Have a little chit-chat. Have it be like this very bizarre mimicry of an AA meeting where nobody's actually trying to heal or get better. It's just morbid.

Alison Stewart: There are a handful of killers in this group who go by the names, Lamprey, Whipworm, Pea Crab. Will you explain what makes all of those terms go together? Whipworm, Pea Crab, Lamprey?

Saratoga Schaefer: Yes, and there's a few more too, but they're all named after parasites. That's their little code names within the group to protect their identities from each other and to not make sure that they're not sharing too much because outside contact is not allowed within the support group. They all have a different nickname that is based off of a parasite.

Alison Stewart: It's a little bit of a sense of humor to it in a way. How did you want to use humor in this book?

Saratoga Schaefer: Yes. I didn't want to go full camp and have it be like a dark comedy, but there's definitely some tongue-in-cheek moments, some black humor, some little witty asides. I think Cyra herself is a pretty dry person. She wouldn't say that she's funny, but she has a lot of interesting reactions to some of the killers and some of the situations she gets herself into. I wanted to use that version of humor too, while we are diving into some pretty deep, dark, intense themes to still keep it a little bit of that tongue-in-cheek, sardonic kind of vibe.

Alison Stewart: What name did they give her?

Saratoga Schaefer: They give her the name Mistletoe.

Alison Stewart: Did you know Mistletoe was a parasite before starting this book?

Saratoga Schaefer: I did not. It actually worked out perfectly because I was looking for a name that had a little bit more of a feminine connotation because I figured that these men, because everyone else in the support group besides Cyra is a man, would want to try to infantilize her and give her a nickname that is not as maybe creepy or dark as the ones that they have, because that's something we see reflected in our actual society and is one of the big differences between male serial killers and female serial killers.

Alison Stewart: I was going to ask you about that. Female serial killers, you research them. In the book, most people think men are serial killers. One, what did you learn about female serial killers, and what did you come to understand why it's a male dominated crime?

Saratoga Schaefer: Some of this is actually in the book because I just found it so interesting that since Cyra is also doing the same research I was doing, I Thought it made sense to include that. Some of that is in there. One of the most interesting things I found was that some psychologists think that the difference between male serial killers and female serial killers are that males tend to do it for fun or because they can, and that females tend to do it for hunter or gatherer purposes, so they're doing it either for survival or they're doing it because they need resources.

That doesn't always track with some of the female serial killers we've seen throughout history who do seem to kill simply because they like it, just like the men do. I think that's something that's really fascinating to consider. Then the nickname thing is something huge that I love talking about because I think it's really interesting where male serial killers, they get names like BTK and Son of Sam and really scary, upsetting names. Then you get female serial killers who get nicknames like Granny Ball Lecter, which are very punny and supposed to be trite. Sometimes they'll be really sexy names too. There is an inherent sexism in the serial killing industry, which is so weird that sexism is so prominent that it even affects serial killers.

I think it's a really interesting aspect to our society and part of that definitely comes through in the book.

Alison Stewart: All right. We don't want to know if Cyra is going to become an avenger for her sister or she'll survive the group. You have to read the book to find out that. I did want to ask you a couple of questions before we wrap about your writing. I was curious, what did you learn about yourself after writing and working on this book?

Saratoga Schaefer: Oh, wow. Yes, so many things. I think I learned that I definitely am drawn to higher-concept topics that involve a lot of maybe the darker side of humanity because it's something that I think is worth exploring. I also learned a lot about my own resilience. This particular book I wrote during a very tumultuous period of my life and it was kind of an escape, which is funny because it's not a very pleasant story. That being an escape is a little bit indicative of maybe my personality. It was a really meaningful book to write in that time of life, and having that be my debut was just amazing. That whole process and getting to where I am now, I think has been really a huge learning experience.

Alison Stewart: I bet people are listening who think they have a book in them. What wisdom would you give to someone who's working on a book, has dreams of having a book published?

Saratoga Schaefer: I'm not going to be one of those people who says write every day because honestly, that's not always accessible for people, and I don't write every day. I would say, "Keep writing," for sure. I would also say try not to get super stuck on one idea or one story, because if you have one story and if you have one book, you will have others. Don't hang your hat on one thing in particular, but have fun with it. Explore. Explore your different ideas. Explore different writing styles. Read a lot. Read everything you can get your hands on, especially the things in your genre, and just keep going.

Because it's a tough industry sometimes and there can be a lot of rejection, but if you have that desire and you love writing, it's completely worth it. Find your path, figure out what works for you, and just keep going.

Alison Stewart: Last month you sold another novel that's coming out next year. Can you give me the logline?

Saratoga Schaefer: Yes. It's called Traditional Wife, and it is about a tradwife influencer who has a demon baby. It's my first horror and it's very unhinged and I'm super excited.

Alison Stewart: You had me, "A tradwife had a demon baby."

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: So great. My guest has been Saratoga Schaeffer. We were talking about their debut thriller, Serial killer Support Group. Thanks, Saratoga, for being with us.

Saratoga Schaefer: Thank you so much for having me.